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Andrew Reid

Canon C200 vs Panasonic GH5, a preview

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3 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Not sure why that quoted DBounce instead of me...

It depends. If it's 8-bit, no. That'll just make it a suitable spec for broadcast. If it still only holds 13 stops of DR, then also no. I can get 13+ stops in 10-bit with many other cameras for less. If it only records to CFast and not SD, no again. It's less data that Raw Light, but still requires an expensive investment in a media format I can't use in many other cameras (almost never work with Alexa mini, use SSDs on the UM46) and don't think will ultimately survive.

It would definitely be a step in the right direction, but it's not a complete solution. Plus it's still a year off, isn't it? Has anyone confirmed whether it's a paid upgrade or not?

Canon stated the firmware update with the new codec will be released in Q1 2018, so about 4-7 months after launch as the cameras do not ship until August, and the C200B does not ship until October. As for bit depth... no one knows. One thing is certain, they no longer need to protect the market from 4k cameras. They can always just release a C300MkIII with 6k or 8k output.

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3 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Not sure why that quoted DBounce instead of me...

It depends. If it's 8-bit, no. That'll just make it a suitable spec for broadcast. If it still only holds 13 stops of DR, then also no. I can get 13+ stops in 10-bit with many other cameras for less. If it only records to CFast and not SD, no again. It's less data that Raw Light, but still requires an expensive investment in a media format I can't use in many other cameras (almost never work with Alexa mini, use SSDs on the UM46) and don't think will ultimately survive.

It would definitely be a step in the right direction, but it's not a complete solution. Plus it's still a year off, isn't it? Has anyone confirmed whether it's a paid upgrade or not?

To add to the @DBounce post, the upgrade will be free. "8bit 4:2:2 XF-AVC 4K internal codec coming Q1 2018 as free firmware"

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32 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Indeed, Canon has not released what the  bit depth will be with the new codec. However, they did state that it will be to SDXC media. 

Wait, really? That's interesting...very excited to get my hands on some files when the update comes through.

Call me crazy, but I'm just generally not a fan of the Canon look. Maybe it's the years of DSLR footage, but it just screams "processed video" to me. Not judging you guys who dig the aesthetic, but I'm over it. 

And I'm familiar with CFast as a format...not sure why someone went to the trouble of explaining it to me. But up against the mountain of devices that accept SD and SSD, compatible devices are a pittance.

Local availability is a problem too. If I'm on location and we need more media than we thought, where can I go to buy fast, large-capacity CFast cards? My local best buy has SanDisk Extreme Pro SDs and SSDs up to 128GB and 512GB, respectively. I think they have one mid-speed speed 32GB CFast card, which would give you..what, 3 minutes of Raw Light? If it can keep up with the data rate?

The price of CFast cards is also ridiculous, especially when you take into account the monstrous Canon file sizes. That wouldn't be such a problem if you could output RAW--or at the very least, 10-bit--out the HDMI or SDI to an SSD-based recorder, but that's not an option either. Someone at DVX User did the math, and I think a full day (8 hours) of suitable media cost a couple grand more than the camera itself! Granted, I almost never shot 8 hours of footage in a single day, but even 4 hours' worth would be a ludicrous expense.

My SD and SSD collection is pretty much as relevant now as at was when I started it 5 years ago. CFast has some question marks in that regard, as even the CFA has announced CFExpress as their format of choice over CFast. A cursory Google search will confirm this, as have my friends in the tech industry. 

http://resourcemagonline.com/2016/10/the-cfast-vs-xqd-battle-is-already-over-stop-buying-cfast/68002/

So while CFast is a fine format for the present and has many benefits, it's too expensive to be a disposable purchase and not solid enough to be an investment.

For me, that is. YMMV.

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On 07/06/2017 at 4:41 AM, tugela said:

If you are backing up on RAID and are concerned about storage, use 8TB reds. They are relatively cheap and easy to find. You can get stand-alone NAS servers at reasonable prices (or just make your own), with swappable storage. So, beyond the cost of the NAS case, you just pay for the drives. It definitely will not cost you $17K for 16TB effective backup.

I put a 12 terabyte raid 5 in my mac pro 2 years ago and it only cost $1000. A 16TB raid would cost about as much now.

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2 hours ago, mercer said:

The bit depth is TBA according to Canon.

 

IMG_1037.PNG

Everywhere I was reading (like the quote above) were mentioning 8 bit! that is a great find Mercer.

As I said in one post the first day of the announcement, just after Christmas, Canon will announce this 10 bit middling codec, and it will make some C200 owners very happy!

The sad thing is the C300mkII owners, but that is the case with evolution, and I am glad that Canon takes part to it. At least they will sleep like babies for at least 8-10 more months!

On an unrelated event, FS5 just got an 1000$ rebate...

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That's still a very big "if." Don't go patting any backs until it's official. The 8-bit HDMI/SDI output leads me to believe the camera's processing pipeline is only set up for 8-bit and RAW.

That said... If this baby gets a 10-bit codec, I could see it absolutely ravaging this market sector. Producers like the look, shooters like the ease of use, post likes the files. Win win win.

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8 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

That's still a very big "if." Don't go patting any backs until it's official. The 8-bit HDMI/SDI output leads me to believe the camera's processing pipeline is only set up for 8-bit and RAW.

That said... If this baby gets a 10-bit codec, I could see it absolutely ravaging this market sector. Producers like the look, shooters like the ease of use, post likes the files. Win win win.

I think the SDI/HDMI output does 10bit 4:2:2 but only in 2K and 1080p.

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3 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

The price of CFast cards is also ridiculous, especially when you take into account the monstrous Canon file sizes. That wouldn't be such a problem if you could output RAW--or at the very least, 10-bit--out the HDMI or SDI to an SSD-based recorder, but that's not an option either.

I feel like you in preference...looked at the EVA but the EF mount is a no go for me...but I like Panasonic cameras...then started looking at the UMP after @AaronChicago  did a comparison between it and the GH5...long story short....B&H offers this solution to those who prefer SSD (myself) to Cfast as media...and after the 1st TB of media the adapter has paid for itself!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1245606-REG/atoch_c2s_cfast_to_ssd.html/?c3api=2572%2C138045278552&gclid=CPWB7oPPr9QCFUVBhgodIgcIsg

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This argument that a day's worth of footage would equate to the cards costing more than the camera is a complete straw man argument.

Who on this site would ever purchase that many cards, or need to? A couple 256gb cards or a few 128gb cards would be more than enough to get you through the day if you offload while you cycle through cards.

People with ML Raw have been doing this for years. It's hardly an issue.

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39 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

@mercer i was mostly joking, but thats a good point about CFast cards. I can offload 256gb using a CF2 reader through USB 3.0  in 5-10 minutes.

I know you, specifically, were just joking, but this narrative has been seriously floating around other sites as an actual argument against the C200.

Don't get me wrong as much as I love Raw, for media/storage purposes, I would have love to have seen Canon implement ProResHQ with a similar 10/12bit option. Or a 1080p Cinema Raw Lite. Honestly though, I think I'm more mesmerized by the fact that Canon, of all manufacturers, even made such a camera.

If they'd only put some of this thinking into a 5DCinema camera, then I might actually put the money together for one. As of now, I'll be happy with my MLRaw. 

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2 hours ago, mercer said:

This argument that a day's worth of footage would equate to the cards costing more than the camera is a complete straw man argument.

Who on this site would ever purchase that many cards, or need to? A couple 256gb cards or a few 128gb cards would be more than enough to get you through the day if you offload while you cycle through cards.

People with ML Raw have been doing this for years. It's hardly an issue.

Maybe to a hobbyist. But there are many real-world shooting scenarios in which cards cannot be dumped on site, or when doing so would disrupt workflow.

Documentary shoot. We're stealing shots on a ferris wheel that plays a pivotal role in the story. Get our lead actor, get our gear. Each little pod has 2 sides that fit 2 people each, and we want our subject alone in the frame. So one camera op, and our director running sound. We ride this thing for a few hours, asking questions and watching this guy soak in the memories of this ride, and the surrounding scenery (which we're also getting scenery of when our guy has to leave--his time was limited).

In that situation, how could I have offloaded every 15-30 minutes? 

Another shoot. Gaffing a micro-budget feature. Very actor-focused. Mostly 2-camera, lots of improv. We're often running 5-10 minutes takes, and really letting our actors play it all out and find what works. 

Were we supposed to stop the director and actors every couple of takes to say "sorry guys, hang tight while we swap cards"? Not that we had the personnel to have someone wrangling data the whole day anyway. 

Say you're not shooting for yourself. I DPed a corporate spot a while back. Nothing huge, but a good door to have my foot in. We had two producers on site to keep an eye on things, myself, a gaffer, and a sound guy. Cards went off to their in-house post team straight afterwards.

If I'd told the client ahead of time that they'd have to provide an on-site data wrangler or pay me to bring one on, they would've just hired someone else rather than incur the additional costs. 

Small commercial for a juice company. Not trained actors--they insisted on having the company founder on camera. Only problem is that the guy's not good on camera. Like... At all. Flubbed every line, stammering, kept making this weird snarly face without realizing it. We're way out away from the building to get the background they want for his big moment. High sun, huge contrast situation.

Being able to say "don't worry, we've got all the time in the world" was hugely helpful on that shoot. If we'd had to send runners all the way out to the main office and back with cards every couple takes, I doubt we would've gotten the footage we did. Not without a second shoot day, which the client wouldn't have done. 

Short film I DPed. We're doing a huge lightning effect; during the climactic fight, the witch shoots a lighting bolt from her staff our valiant hero in his suit of armor. The effect works by doing 3 passes: one with the witch holding her staff up, one with our guy in the suit and a huge 12 foot Tesla coil, and a clean plate pass. Our effects guy says we need to do all 3 passes in one single shot, without cutting. Camera is surrounded by a Faraday cage on a motion control robot, so that it won't fry from the Tesla coil. That means every take, we had to set up the knight and coil, replace them with the witch and a lighting gag, then get it all out of frame for the plate. We easily ran at least 15-20 minutes per take, and needed to squeeze every drop of image quality from these shots in post. 

I simply don't know how I could've accomplished that setup with 2-3 cards of limited capacity. 

Even if it is possible to offload cards on the day, having enough media to last the day, and of large enough capacities not to have to offload them once or twice an hour, makes things much smoother and easier on you, your crew, and your clients' nerves.

For an owner-operator, it is an essential part of your package. What if your client wants a run and gun shoot that you estimate will create 5-6 hours of footage, and they want it all in 10-bit 422? You have to be prepared for that and any other scenario, or you've lost the advantage of owning. 

TL;DR: For some users, offloading as you shoot may be a viable option; however, it is not a viable option for all users or all shooting situations. 

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4 hours ago, mat33 said:

I think the SDI/HDMI output does 10bit 4:2:2 but only in 2K and 1080p.

Ah, you're correct. Would love to get a 10-bit 2K recording or two to play with.

We'll have to just wait and see on the codec update. Who knows, a beefier 8-bit might do the trick for a lot of people.

4 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

I feel like you in preference...looked at the EVA but the EF mount is a no go for me...but I like Panasonic cameras...then started looking at the UMP after @AaronChicago  did a comparison between it and the GH5...long story short....B&H offers this solution to those who prefer SSD (myself) to Cfast as media...and after the 1st TB of media the adapter has paid for itself!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1245606-REG/atoch_c2s_cfast_to_ssd.html/?c3api=2572%2C138045278552&gclid=CPWB7oPPr9QCFUVBhgodIgcIsg

Why is the EF mount a no go for you? Plenty to put on it besides just EF glass, and SLR Magic primes adapt just fine. Or do you have reason to need PL?

Yeah, that's definitely what I'd use for an UMP46. Still gotta get hands on with that guy sometime. There's some concern that it won't work with the C200 because the camera won't record with the card door open, but maybe someone will find a work around.

I really wish I liked the FS7 sensor more, because it's the only competitive option in this bracket with a mirrorless mount and a 10-bit codec. I nicknamed my buddy's FS700 "the noisemaker," because that sensor is just lousy with it! Not an attractive image overall either, imo. I have a great story about that; if I'm not feeling too lazy tomorrow, maybe I'll make a separate topic to tell it.

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47 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Documentary shoot. We're stealing shots on a ferris wheel that plays a pivotal role in the story. Get our lead actor, get our gear. Each little pod has 2 sides that fit 2 people each, and we want our subject alone in the frame. So one camera op, and our director running sound. We ride this thing for a few hours, asking questions and watching this guy soak in the memories of this ride, and the surrounding scenery (which we're also getting scenery of when our guy has to leave--his time was limited).

In that situation, how could I have offloaded every 15-30 minutes? 

Obviously a documentary with this type of scenario would not be a good fit for the Cinema Raw Lite... shoot in XF-AVC.

48 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Another shoot. Gaffing a micro-budget feature. Very actor-focused. Mostly 2-camera, lots of improv. We're often running 5-10 minutes takes, and really letting our actors play it all out and find what works. 

Were we supposed to stop the director and actors every couple of takes to say "sorry guys, hang tight while we swap cards"? Not that we had the personnel to have someone wrangling data the whole day anyway. 

Never in a million years would I ever even consider shooting a micro budget comedy and allow the actors to improv for 5-10 minutes... that is a sure fire recipe for an unfunny movie.

 

50 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Say you're not shooting for yourself. I DPed a corporate spot a while back. Nothing huge, but a good door to have my foot in. We had two producers on site to keep an eye on things, myself, a gaffer, and a sound guy. Cards went off to their in-house post team straight afterwards.

If I'd told the client ahead of time that they'd have to provide an on-site data wrangler or pay me to bring one on, they would've just hired someone else rather than incur the additional costs. 

Small commercial for a juice company. Not trained actors--they insisted on having the company founder on camera. Only problem is that the guy's not good on camera. Like... At all. Flubbed every line, stammering, kept making this weird snarly face without realizing it. We're way out away from the building to get the background they want for his big moment. High sun, huge contrast situation.

Being able to say "don't worry, we've got all the time in the world" was hugely helpful on that shoot. If we'd had to send runners all the way out to the main office and back with cards every couple takes, I doubt we would've gotten the footage we did. Not without a second shoot day, which the client wouldn't have done. 

Again commercials and corporate work one should use the MP4 or XF-AVC.

51 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Short film I DPed. We're doing a huge lightning effect; during the climactic fight, the witch shoots a lighting bolt from her staff our valiant hero in his suit of armor. The effect works by doing 3 passes: one with the witch holding her staff up, one with our guy in the suit and a huge 12 foot Tesla coil, and a clean plate pass. Our effects guy says we need to do all 3 passes in one single shot, without cutting. Camera is surrounded by a Faraday cage on a motion control robot, so that it won't fry from the Tesla coil. That means every take, we had to set up the knight and coil, replace them with the witch and a lighting gag, then get it all out of frame for the plate. We easily ran at least 15-20 minutes per take, and needed to squeeze every drop of image quality from these shots in post. 

I simply don't know how I could've accomplished that setup with 2-3 cards of limited capacity. 

Again, with a few 256GB cards, at 30 minutes for each card, this is easily obtainable. I assume between takes you needed to reset? By the time you get to the third card, your first one will be fresh and ready. Again probably not a perfect scenario, but definitely not impossible.

But yes, the Cinema Raw Lite is not perfect for lots of scenarios. I am excited about it and as a writer/director, I just look at it how people used to shoot indie films on 16mm... 3:1 shot ratio... at best. So, for low rent stuff... shoot on MP4. For indie films (short and long form), music videos, and some docs shoot Cinema Raw Lite, and for higher end clients, shoot XF-AVC. It's a really good three tiered camera... or it will be when the FW update is released.

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