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The wraps are off! Panasonic EVA1 compact cinema camera announced with Super 35 5.7K sensor and Dual Native ISO

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The $5K to $8K S35 camera range is getting interesting! Hope this helps people. Did my best to keep it objective- Things like color science and ergonomics are up to you guys to decide. Let me know if I messed up any specs or didn't include anything.

VS everything in this list:

Pros-

  • Higher res, fully-sampled 5.7K sensor for internal recording
  • Dual Native ISO (800/2500)
  • 5.7K raw output (later)
  • Built-in sun hood for LCD
  • Focus Squares (whatever that means)

VS FS7:

Pros-

  • 240fps (cropped)
  • WAY cheaper media
  • Lighter
  • Touch screen

Cons-

  • 10 bit raw instead of 12
  • No 10 bit internal 4K or slomo
  • (From what I can tell) No 10 bit long gop option
  • Uncropped slomo limited to 120fps vs 180fps
  • Not as flexible as E Mount (though, you could argue EF is stronger)
  • Lower res EVF (1.1M vs 1.5M dots)

VS FS5:

Pros-

  • Higher bitrate internal codecs
  • 4K 10 Bit
  • 4K60 Internal
  • Touch screen
  • Waveform

Cons-

  • 8 bit slomo
  • 120 max uncropped slomo
  • No evf
  • Non-variable ND filter (and only 6 vs 7 stops)
  • Not as flexible as E Mount (though, you could argue EF is stronger)
  • Lower res EVF (same as fs7)

VS Ursa Mini Pro:

Pros-

  • Low light (I think we need to wait for tests to see vs the others, but there's no way it doesn't beat the Ursa)
  • Lighter
  • Cheaper Media

Cons-

  • No internal raw
  • smaller LCD
  • Lower Res internal options (4K vs 4.6K)

VS C200:

Pros-

  • Way stronger non-raw internal recording.
  • Dual card slots (Yes, C200 has 3, but it's only one CFast so no dual recording option is available for raw)
  • Cheaper Media (except for XFAVC to SD recording)

Cons-

  • No internal raw
  • No DPAF
  • No touch focus
  • 6 vs 10 stop ND filter
  • Smaller LCD (and barely less resolution)
  • No EVF

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Seems to be a new trend to announce future codecs...... 10bit 4:2:2 ALL-I coming later as firmware update?!?... at the beginning only LGOP 150 mbits. 4k 60p will be only 8bit 4:2:0...

Curious to see the image quality

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I'm usually a huge Panasonic fanboy but I'm a bit pessimistic about the EVA. The price is just too high for what you're getting, which is the GH5 LSI hooked up to a new sensor.

8-bit 4:2:0 at anything over 30p? And under 30p, the bitrates are still no higher than the GH5's? C'mon, that's not $7.5K territory. That's like $5-6K territory....

GH5 is $2,000. Internal NDs and XLRs and form factor add about $1-1.5K of value. Maybe $2K if you really want to argue. Bigger sensor adds about the same. That brings it to maybe $6K- well shy of $7.5K.

And that's before considering that the EVA won't have IBIS, its AF will certainly be worse than the GH5's (which isn't stellar in the first place), and it doesn't have a viewfinder. So subtract whatever you think those are all worth- to me it's a lot- and you're most likely back under $5K.

Sure, there's RAW output, and slightly better HFR than the GH5... add what you will for those features. Maybe they make it worth it for you.

The value will be easier to judge when the GH5's 400Mbit update is released. If it's as good as everyone hopes, both cameras become much better values. But I think it will be about the same situation as the GH4's 1080p: the 100Mbit Long-GOP is better for most situations over the 200Mbit All-I, unless you're really prioritizing motion over resolution.

And then there's those pesky rumors that the Panasonic engineers can't even get the 400Mbit to work smoothly on the GH5 LSI....

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You're forgetting to factor dual native ISO. But I also think you're trying to put dollar amounts on something that is greater than its parts. We're talking a super 35 camera that's practically a VariCam LT, without ProRes and with a stop less low-light, for half the cost.

Really, if anything, the GH5 is underpriced for what it is - not the other way around. 

But this is all hypothetical until we see footage. Then we can all decide for ourselves if it's worth $7500.

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True, assigning dollar amounts to features is a crude way of evaluating a camera. But I think my overall point stands: at this point, with what we know or can reasonably assume about the camera (GH5 LSI, AF performance), the camera is overpriced- even when disregarding the GH5 and strictly comparing to it's intended competitors (FS5/7/7II, C300II, UMP, C200).

I also think assuming the EVA will be a Varicam at half the price is a bit foolhardy- at least when recording internally. Processing and codec are very important parts of the image pipeline, and if it's the GH5 LSI in the EVA, I doubt it will be packing Varicam magic into 150Mbps. Surely the image will be a bit nicer than the GH5's, just because of the better sensor: but quadruple-the-cost better?

I'm betting the EVA will be a lot like the FS5- nice form factor, nice sensor, really nice image when outputting raw to a (bulky, fiddly, expensive) external recorder.... weak-ish internal codec that's a lot closer to what's in their consumer photo cams (GH5 or A-series, respectively) than their pro cams (Varicam or FS7/7II/F5).

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4k 400mbps is lie or clic bait from initial advertisements

4k 60fps is 8bit in year 2017

2k 240fps is cropped with 8bit in year 2017

5.7k resolution is God knows when upgrade and not internal

2500 ISO max usable

No Autofocus

 

How cool is it for calling 7500/- cheap!

 

I think after canon, Panasonic started smoking same shit in my opinion. Overall its a marketing gimmick in year 2017.

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I'm no Canon fan anymore but the option of putting the touchscreen with DPAF and raw at 4k 50p 10bit is enticing. I have the feeling Pana expected what we all expected, that Canon would produce a 25p 4k camera and call it a day and they were caught with the pants down and off guard. In fact, I'd rather mix the gh5 with the C200 than with the EVA. 

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On 6/5/2017 at 11:58 AM, jax_rox said:

You want to shoot a feature with an MFT mount, I guess you have to go to Blackmagic... If there really was a market for S35 cameras with MFT mounts, don't you think Blackmagic would've gone there already...?

If you only stick with what has gone before then Ford never would have made a Model T, and instead would have just made a "better" horse pulled carriage.

 

On 6/5/2017 at 11:58 AM, jax_rox said:

The problem is no MFT glass that covers a S35 sensor. You're suggesting Panasonic shoot themselves in the foot with an obscure (at pro video level) lens mount, one that already doesn't lock, and you want to build that up with adapters...?

MFT is Panasonic's best selling mount. 

Sigma, Rokinon, Samyang, and Veydra MFT glass all covers S35.

You can have a locking MFT mount, just like the FS7 mk2 did for E mount.

On 6/5/2017 at 11:58 AM, jax_rox said:

As I said previously, when they were building the LT, they did extensive market research, and the cry was for EF mount - not MFT. I understand the adapting possibilities. I do it myself with Sony. But I just don't believe that it's a huge market at this level.

See my point above about making carriages, rather than cars. It is easy to get mislead with market research if you don't really think about what you're doing. 

They probably went out and asked a bunch of ex C300 shooters what they wanted, rather than asking any up and coming GH5 owners who are moving up.

On 6/5/2017 at 11:58 AM, jax_rox said:

What's the point of releasing a S35 camera with a lens mount that forces you to crop hugely without adapting lenses...? 

Flexibility is why! Want to go ultra light, small, and compact? Then bring along a few MFT lenses!

Want to use PL lenses? You can do that too!

Want to have a Vistavision field of view? You can do that too!

Want to use a speedbooster? You can do that too!

 

However... the Panasonic EVA1 EF can do NONE OF THAT! :-(

 

On 6/5/2017 at 11:58 AM, jax_rox said:

Sure, the JVC may have done it, but how popular is it..? 

Don't mix up its popularity due to being a JVC camera vs being an innovative MFT/S35 camera. 

Being a JVC product it was always going to struggle for sales. Thus the question you have to ask, is if being MFT/S35 gain it more or less sales?

I feel undoubtedly JVC got more sales due to being a MFT/S35 camera!

Just look at how we are still talking about it years later in late 2017!! Clearly it made a notable impact, that wouldn't have happened to the same extent it if was just another EF camera. 

On 6/5/2017 at 3:00 AM, mercer said:

Exactly, Panasonic missed the mark completely IMO. If they use the same Super 35mm Varicam sensor as planned, with a Micro 4/3 mount... or very least a swappable mount, with 5-axis, include an EVF, with 4K up to 72fps and some form of internal/external Raw... it DOESN'T NEED to be a yet to be developed 5.7K Raw (although that is pretty damn cool) and price it between $6000 and $7000, they would have nailed this for the market (I assume) they're going for.


I'd LOVE that!

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On 6/5/2017 at 11:58 AM, jax_rox said:

Then it becomes a more expensive camera. A swappable lens mount alone would make the price rise drastically, and I just don't think at this level that there's enough market for it to justify.

The base mount itself would not add any extra cost. Yes, the main mount that then gets sold with it on top of the base mount would then cost extra in this scenario, but how much would it really add to the cost?

At the moment third party adapters range from twenty bucks or so, up to a thousand dollars or so. But due to bundling it up, and vast economies of scales, they would cost much much less to produce in terms of how much it would add to the final price of an EVA1 MFT,

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Well said, IronFilm!

I was thinking about mft variant of EVA-1 as well. No doubts that it's totally possible in technical sense - LS300 as proof, and it's unclear why the majority ignores or even denies this fact. Maybe because Panasonic haven't had anything in the middle for ages.

But is it reasonable? I checked several aspects.

First - resolution. M43 lenses won't cover whole sensor, maybe lens coverage will have so awkward crop factor and/or resolution that it's not worth trying? Math: (5700 / 24.6) * 17.3 ~= 4000 pixels wide. So it totally covers UHD even in 4:3 aspect and can easily get 4096 on 17:9. More to say, it fits so well without any noticeable crop that makes me think it was originally designed for mft in terms of pixel density.

Second - lenses. Even native lenses would be usable with crop on EVA-1, but there are a lot of lenses for mft that will cover S35 sensor. And most affordable anamorphic 2x lenses are mft. And those new affordable Fuji cine lenses could be rehoused for mft, not for EF.

Third - usability. We all understand why so many non-Canon cameras with EF mount come on market today - tons of lenses and (as rumored) no more patent protection. Nice choice for company without it's own lens ecosystem. But EF specs sre still proprietary and closed. I guess there will be some kind of HCL for lenses, it won't be long and EVA-1's AF on EF lenses seems to be rudimental anyways. Nothing to loose in comparison with "mft + adapter" combo. But on mft mount it's totally possible to adapt a lot of short flange distance lenses. And use speedboosters. And have less problems adapting PL lenses. And have small and light native mft lenses with DFD autofocus for small setups.

Fourth - ideology. Current mft leader - GH5 - is heavily video-oriented. If someone would like to benefit from mft system advantages (compact size and light weight) on photo side then GH5 is a bad choice - it's bulky, expensive and has no crucial advantages in photo mode in front of many cheaper and smaller models in mft family. The majority of GH5s is bought mostly for video shooting, it's usually a noticable investment. And people usually start to think about lens investment at this point. I see quite plenty of videographers who started with G6/7 and kit lens and now are trying to move further, or guys switching from Canon, or some productions using GH5 as B-C-crash-cam. They are deciding whether it's worth investing into native lenses in terms of video production or not. And they are those who can potentially invest into top lenses. But Panasonic kinda says "no". AF is not that great, you still need to rig your setup to a degree and make it heavier, and all those mft lenses will be useless if you want to move to pro solutions. In fact there is no straight line path from GH5 to EVA-1 cause you have to change all you gear (exept flash cards, hopefully), and there are no benefits from switching to EVA-1 rather than Canon Cx00, Sony FSx, BM Ursas or even some LS300 descendant. I do understand why Canon wants to tie us to their solutions, but I have no idea why Panasonic tries to drag us into Canon's ecosystem, especially facing Sony's MILCs market domination. Sell more lenses today - sell more camera bodies tomorrow.

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I'm heavily invested in EF mount lenses. Beyond a small collection of Sigma Art and Tokina lenses, I've got a set of Leica Summicron-R lenses adapted to EF mount, and a set of Contax-Zeiss lenses adapted to EF mount. And I like the idea that I can use these on my EVA1 (pre-ordered) and if I wish, can use a GH5 with a .71x Speed Booster as a b-cam to get the exact same Super35 1.5x field of view.

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47 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

I'm heavily invested in EF mount lenses. Beyond a small collection of Sigma Art and Tokina lenses, I've got a set of Leica Summicron-R lenses adapted to EF mount, and a set of Contax-Zeiss lenses adapted to EF mount. And I like the idea that I can use these on my EVA1 (pre-ordered) and if I wish, can use a GH5 with a .71x Speed Booster as a b-cam to get the exact same Super35 1.5x field of view.

Do you have another feature in the works?

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8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

At the moment third party adapters range from twenty bucks or so, up to a thousand dollars or so. But due to bundling it up, and vast economies of scales, they would cost much much less to produce in terms of how much it would add to the final price of an EVA1 MFT,

... Not to mention that Panasonic could customize the external housing of the smart adapters to follow the form of the camera, employing a extra reinforcement flange that bolts the adapter to the camera body.

 

Clueless EF shooters would mount (and electronically control) their lenses with no wobble... and they would be none the wiser that they were actually using an adapter!

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9 hours ago, IronFilm said:


I'd LOVE that!

Honestly, when I wrote that I was really searching for a second cam with IBIS and one to use my c-mounts with, so a Panasonic cam without either of those options made no sense to me. Since then I've been using Canon lenses with OIS and frankly, the two I have, their IS works +/- as well as the Panasonic IBIS in the GX85. And I must say I really enjoy not using huge adapters when using my Nikkors or old Nikon mount Tokinas.

However, I still think Panasonic missed a specific market with the EVA... the 3-5000 dollar market that would cherish the m4/3 mount and IBIS on a small cine box of a camera.

Where is the AF200?

And it would probably be a great idea if they offered the EVA with a micro 4/3 mount as well as a special order.

8 minutes ago, tupp said:

... Not to mention that Panasonic could customize the external housing of the smart adapters to follow the form of the camera, employing a extra reinforcement flange that bolts the adapter to the camera body.

 

Clueless EF shooters would mount (and electronically control) their lenses with no wobble... and they would be none the wiser that they were actually using an adapter!

The problem is that at that price point, Panasonic wouldn't be getting anything out of doing it except extra engineering and manufacturing costs. Most people buying at that price range won't be using Panasonic lenses anyway, so why incur those costs for a minority of shooters that want to use Minolta, Konica, or FD lenses? 

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7 hours ago, mercer said:

The problem is that at that price point, Panasonic wouldn't be getting anything out of doing it except extra engineering and manufacturing costs.

Actually, Panasonic would be getting a much more serious and versatile camera for very little extra in cost.

 

 

There has to be some sort of "tube" or enclosure going from the sensor to the lens mount.  So, having that "tube" as a separate piece doesn't require much extra in materials, but it adds a whole heck of a lot to the capability (and maintenance) of the camera.   The extra costs would be for:

  • a separate die-cast piece (could be incorporated in the same die as the rest of the camera housing);
  • one to four threading operations in the camera body (about US$2 each);
  • a deburring operation;
  • a powder coating (again, no extra materials here);
  • wiring/contacts for the EF electronics (US$30?).

 

 

Such a small expense is negligible to such an expensive camera, but a removable front would greatly enhance what lenses and adapters/speedboosters one can use.

 

 

7 hours ago, mercer said:

Most people buying at that price range won't be using Panasonic lenses anyway, so why incur those costs for a minority of shooters that want to use Minolta, Konica, or FD lenses?

Who said anything about using Panasonic lenses?  That is the kind of narrow thinking that produces cinema cameras with EF mounts!

 

 

A removable front would literally open the camera up to a whole world of lenses, including professional cinematography lenses offered in PL mount, PV mount, C-mount, Arri Bayonet mount, and it would even allow the attachment of "Minolta, Konica, or FD lenses (which all have very nice optics)."   Additionally, such a feature would enable the use of focal reducers (extra stops and wider view angle), tilt/swing adapters, macro bellows, helical mechanisms, and other lens modifiers.

 

 

Certainly, the typical walled-garden EF shooter is not interested in such versatility, but this multitude of possibilities would be very useful to cinematographers who want to create interesting images and who want to get an edge on the "straight" shooters.

 

 

Again, the additional manufacturing cost for a removable front would be minimal, and the EF shooters would never know the difference.

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8 hours ago, tupp said:

Actually, Panasonic would be getting a much more serious and versatile camera for very little extra in cost.

 

 

There has to be some sort of "tube" or enclosure going from the sensor to the lens mount.  So, having that "tube" as a separate piece doesn't require much extra in materials, but it adds a whole heck of a lot to the capability (and maintenance) of the camera.   The extra costs would be for:

  • a separate die-cast piece (could be incorporated in the same die as the rest of the camera housing);
  • one to four threading operations in the camera body (about US$2 each);
  • a deburring operation;
  • a powder coating (again, no extra materials here);
  • wiring/contacts for the EF electronics (US$30?).

 

 

Such a small expense is negligible to such an expensive camera, but a removable front would greatly enhance what lenses and adapters/speedboosters one can use.

 

 

Who said anything about using Panasonic lenses?  That is the kind of narrow thinking that produces cinema cameras with EF mounts!

 

 

A removable front would literally open the camera up to a whole world of lenses, including professional cinematography lenses offered in PL mount, PV mount, C-mount, Arri Bayonet mount, and it would even allow the attachment of "Minolta, Konica, or FD lenses (which all have very nice optics)."   Additionally, such a feature would enable the use of focal reducers (extra stops and wider view angle), tilt/swing adapters, macro bellows, helical mechanisms, and other lens modifiers.

 

 

Certainly, the typical walled-garden EF shooter is not interested in such versatility, but this multitude of possibilities would be very useful to cinematographers who want to create interesting images and who want to get an edge on the "straight" shooters.

 

 

Again, the additional manufacturing cost for a removable front would be minimal, and the EF shooters would never know the difference.

Well, there are a lot more costs in manufacturing than just the price of parts.

And there are plenty of modern super 35mm cine lenses that will mount to EF:

‚ÄĘ Zeiss Compact Primes

‚ÄĘ Schneider Cine Xenar III

‚ÄĘ Cooke Mini S4

‚ÄĘ Rokinon Cine

‚ÄĘ Tokina Cinema

The EVA1 seems to be more of a B-Cam to a Varicam LT than an A-Cam to a GH5. I don't agree with that marketing/production decision but Panasonic seems to have designed it that way. And not too many cinematographers are putting old Schneider Super 35mm glass on a Varicam LT. I'm sure there are plenty of cinematographers that would love to mount a set of Tevidon lenses to the EVA1, but there are more that are going to use a Zeiss Compact Prime to match the Master Primes on their LT,

Unfortunately, Micro 4/3 is just not a professional cinema camera mount. And the EF mount offers enough possibilities for professional cinema lenses and for lower cost professional still lenses.

But as far as adapting goes, there are plenty of older lenses that will adapt to EF:

For some PL mount lenses...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/995147-REG/fotodiox_ar_pl_eos_p_pro_canon_eos_adapter.html

For some Arri B mount lenses...

https://www.rafcamera.com/adapter-arri-b-to-canon-eos

Hell, you can even adapt some old Konvas Lomo glass...

http://m.ebay.com/itm/OCT19-OST-19-OCT-19-KONVAS-LOMO-to-Canon-EOS-EF-mount-C7-adapter-/260875544582

So you're right, there are some lenses that won't work but the EVA1 isn't designed for those lenses because not a lot pro cinematographers would use old c-mounts or Veydras or Speedboosters.

I think you're more interested in the possibilities of a future AF200 and not an EVA1.

I am too.

Honestly, I think Panasonic offered too much with the GH5 and they eliminated any room for their low budget cinema camera market. The EVA1 appears to have the same codec as the GH5 with the same firmware update path. Since the 400mbps 10bit is scheduled as a firmware update for the EVA1... where does that leave the supposed summer GH5 firmware update?

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