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Andrew Reid

Cinema5D slates the Panasonic GH5, calls V-LOG and 10bit "unusable" - They're wrong

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13 minutes ago, Dimitris Stasinos said:

"1080p 180fps gives you less resolution than actual 1080p". Really? Name a camera at this price range (or double the money if you want) that does better than this.

So how is their point wrong? It just means all the cameras in this price range also have the same con.

They have had their hands on the camera and have given an opinion, just like every other blogger out there. For those that are convinced the GH5 is great and worth the money (me!), then there is no need to worry. If you are on the fence, then it is another point of view to digest and make conclusions from.

At least we can put to bed the idea that all these other sites just pander to the whims of the manufacturer.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
13 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

So how is their point wrong? It just means all the cameras in this price range also have the same con.

They have had their hands on the camera and have given an opinion, just like every other blogger out there. For those that are convinced the GH5 is great and worth the money (me!), then there is no need to worry. If you are on the fence, then it is another point of view to digest and make conclusions from.

At least we can put to bed the idea that all these other sites just pander to the whims of the manufacturer.

When you are naming as a reviewer some negative things (cons) about a camera, you are referring to things that should be there, considering the company's marketing, the product's price and the competition in this specific price range. HFR is softer than regular 1080p in all cameras since faster sensor readouts come with compromises, at least for now...But 180p imagery, slightly softer than Pana's tack sharp 1080p is not a "con", this is what I am saying. It is called "gift".

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Either way, the point is not "wrong" and is something people want to know. They think it is a con, you think it is a bonus.... No one is right or wrong, so no point beating them up about it.

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At the very least don't you need to wait for the 400 Mb firmware update before you can make and observation on what the camera is capable of?  And yes Andrew as it pertains to comparing a $2000 camera to camera costing $28,000 is a bit .... er .... absurd,

I'll quote a friend who made some observations on a few flaws in the test:  "Canon freely admits they go to great lengths to make fleshtones look good no matter what. Their entire color science is oriented towards that. "  He also said:  "The "vertical aliasing test" is a actually a test of *horizontal* resolving power and aliasing."  He said much more to me but I wont quote that here.

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18 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

panasonic gh5.jpg

Cinema5D have put the Panasonic GH5 on test, with a few charts and have some harsh words for the new 10bit mirrorless camera.

I don't agree with much of their criticism.

Here's an alternative opinion.

Read the full blog post

Dynamic Range tests have become something of a joke nowadays. They remind me of the lovely shoet story titled Many Moons written by James Thurber, where every guy in the kingdom believes himself to be smarter than the other.

Cinema5D rated the A7S at 12 stops of dynamic range, so rating the GH5 at 10-11 is actually pretty good. They probably remove 30% of the manufacturer's stated figures for the RED cameras. RED says 18 stops on the RED Weapon and Cinema5D will conveniently say12 stops. Or less. 

I feel, that they have a curious bias against Panasonic Cameras. I personally hate anything Panasonic right now,  since my GX85 fiasco refuses to end. But, for the price, there isn't a better camera manufacturer for Indie Filmmakers out there. Panasonic gets way too many things right. Having 1 stop less of dynamic range doesn't even matter. Cinema5D praised the Sony RX100 to no end. And yet there was no mention of testing of great cameras like the G7, GX85, G85 etc. They definitely have a bias against Panasonic.

And unlike me, they don't really gave against justifiable reason. 

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9 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Dynamic Range tests have become something of a joke nowadays. They remind me of the lovely shoet story titled Many Moons written by James Thurber, where every guy in the kingdom believes himself to be smarter than the other.

Cinema5D rated the A7S at 12 stops of dynamic range, so rating the GH5 at 10-11 is actually pretty good. They probably remove 30% of the manufacturer's stated figures for the RED cameras. RED says 18 stops on the RED Weapon and Cinema5D will conveniently say12 stops. Or less. 

I feel, that they have a curious bias against Panasonic Cameras. I personally hate anything Panasonic right now,  since my GX85 fiasco refuses to end. But, for the price, there isn't a better camera manufacturer for Indie Filmmakers out there. Panasonic gets way too many things right. Having 1 stop less of dynamic range doesn't even matter. Cinema5D praised the Sony RX100 to no end. And yet there was no mention of testing of great cameras like the G7, GX85, G85 etc. They definitely have a bias against Panasonic.

And unlike me, they don't really gave against justifiable reason. 

I never thought of it that way, I would say that they do tend to favor SONY quite a bit from what Ive seen.  

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1 hour ago, Philip Lipetz said:

James Miller demonstrates that this is an codec problem that disappears when an external recorder is used, suggesting that the 400mps upgrade will help or elimaite this occasional problem.

https://we.tl/wC2RIj8TjI

 

Jamres Miller GH5.jpg

 

BTW am I worried about this "problem?" Not at all.  And I did not mean to imply that I was. I was shocked to be asked if I was cancelling our nonprofit's orders. Absolutely not. the majority of our work goes to the web, and no one will ever notice. Not even me. If I ever need to shoot for the big screen I will use our Atomos, or 400mbs. 

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"LOG mashes skintones together, with very little separation between distinct shades, so that when the 150Mbit/s data rate is applied to the final H.264 file, the compression becomes the important factor (mushing the tonality and blending blocks of colour together as one)."

Not sure if I'm missing something, but exposed properly even the lowly 35 / 24 megabit c100 II in C-Log doesn't appear to "mash the skintones" for me.  Perhaps the V-LOG is just that much flatter?  Don't know.

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@Andrew Reid

Totally agree with your points Andrew!

And if I sum it up:

They've disable the NR on the GH5 (at least that's what I understood) than complained they see noise in the shadows :)), so "the DR must be low". Heck I downloaded their test, brightened the shadows and applied a little bit of NR and whoops the DR is over 12 stops.

They complain about bad color on Vlog but they edit the log profile with LUTS. :))

They complain about lack of detail but they've dialed the sharpness to a minimum cause it's to much...seriously?

They see no advantage in 10 bits vs 8 bits but never show any example, like on a plain sky with a blue gradient + heavy grading.

They complain about soft 180 fps on the GH5 but never complain about the utterly crap Canon 1080p in DLSM's, which is nowhere near at 30fps compare the the GH5 180 fps.

Etc, etc.

dynamic-range-panasonic-gh5.jpg

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Remember the last zacuto camera test? When was it? 2012? And we are still saying "absurd" to a comparison of cameras? Whatever the price or manufacturing date, they are useful and by now expected. C5D gave their opinion, Andrew replied with his, both useful and for us to mull and ponder. When not long ago canon didn't offered a 10 bit option until the c500 and it didn't record 4K internally, it's part of the "narrative " to use a c700 in the test. Why not a price/feature comparable canon camera tested? Because it doesn't exist. 

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32 minutes ago, Eno said:

@Andrew Reid

Totally agree with your points Andrew!

And if I sum it up:

They've disable the NR on the GH5 (at least that's what I understood) than complained they see noise in the shadows :)), so "the DR must be low". Heck I downloaded their test, brightened the shadows and applied a little bit of NR and whoops the DR is over 12 stops.

They complain about bad color on Vlog but they edit the log profile with LUTS. :))

They complain about lack of detail but they've dialed the sharpness to a minimum cause it's to much...seriously?

They see no advantage in 10 bits vs 8 bits but never show any example, like on a plain sky with a blue gradient + heavy grading.

They complain about soft 180 fps on the GH5 but never complain about the utterly crap Canon 1080p in DLSM's, which is nowhere near at 30fps compare the the GH5 180 fps.

Etc, etc.

dynamic-range-panasonic-gh5.jpg

I'm not taking sides on this one, I've owned several Panasonic bodies, I have the GH5 on preorder as well: however, it's pretty clear to me that both the Fuji X-T2 and the Sony a7sII surpass the Panasonic in dynamic range and low light performance; the X-T2 has crisper 4K and more pleasing colors; and if Sony or Fuji upped their game in the video department as far as usability goes, I'd probably stop buying Panasonic. And if you check out my YouTube channel, you'll notice I've uploaded way more Panasonic videos than Fuji - not because the image quality of the G85 is better, but because it is so much easier to just pick up and start shooting video.

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3 minutes ago, Eno said:

@jonpais

I'm not taking sides either, but I've pointed out (what I consider) flaws in their testing methodology.

As have a million other people in the comments section over at their website. And this is true not only for this review, but for practically every other one they've ever conducted.

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I couldn't give a crap about scientific camera tests. 

It's 2017 and every new release is more than suitable to get a great result. 

Rent the camera, buy the camera.

Take it out outside, inside, down the stairs, inside a cave, on a car, underwater, in space. Wherever. 

Keep, sell or return. Stroke it. Kiss it. Crush it. Burn it. 

Canon, Fuji, Sony, Panasonic, GoPro... whatever suits. 

Shoot shoot shoot. 

Learn, and shoot again. Again. Again. Again. Over and over. 

 

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3 hours ago, Philip Lipetz said:

James Miller demonstrates that this is an codec problem that disappears when an external recorder is used, suggesting that the 400mps upgrade will help or elimaite this occasional problem.

It's not the external recorder that fixes the problem but having an LUT baked in:

 

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