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Hene1

They shot Moonlight (8 Oscar nominations) with ProRes, not RAW

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"We [recorded in] ProRes. In our testing we found that the benefits of shooting Raw didn’t necessarily apply to what this film needed. The ALEXA’s latitude (when shooting ProRes) was enough without going down the post-production path with Raw."

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/cameras-and-lenses-behind-2017-oscar-nominated-films/

So it turns out you can get 8 Oscar nominations (including the cinematography) without shooting RAW or film.

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1 hour ago, Nikkor said:

Yeah, with an Alexa. 

Nothing wrong with shooting an Alexa, but I do think that anyone in film production that truly believes technical superiority offers the best path to creative achievements has some goofy priorities.  I get why aspiring filmmaker folks want to do their best technically, but to prioritize it above the artistic craft is nuts.  It's there to support the thing you're trying to accomplish, not the thing itself.  There's no real way forward in being a filmmaker with that attitude.

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1 hour ago, fuzzynormal said:

Nothing wrong with shooting an Alexa, but I do think that anyone in film production that truly believes technical superiority offers the best path to creative achievements has some goofy priorities.  I get why aspiring filmmaker folks want to do their best technically, but to prioritize it above the artistic craft is nuts.  It's there to support the thing you're trying to accomplish, not the thing itself.  There's no real way forward in being a filmmaker with that attitude.

Aha, that's great. I just thought it was funny to try making that kind of statement/Point-proving while talking about a 30.000k Camera that actually is designed to deliver something that competes and subsitutes Film, which is what most people are looking for when they want to shoot raw or film. Anyway, have fun.

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Alexa ProRes (particularly in 4:3 mode with anamorphic lenses) is without a doubt a theatrical format. Many, many movies have been shot this way, and it's standard procedure for films that are under $3-5 million to go this route. Arriraw is expensive and extremely data-hungry. The Codex workflow, while bulletproof, requires a pricey on-set Vault system, and a skilled DIT to run it. ProRes can be handled with a laptop and a couple of hard drives. Boom. Direct to edit.

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24 minutes ago, BrooklynDan said:

 The Codex workflow, while bulletproof, requires a pricey on-set Vault system, and a skilled DIT to run it. ProRes can be handled with a laptop and a couple of hard drives. Boom. Direct to edit.

There's some interesting people talking about DIT's in this link.

http://nofilmschool.com/2013/10/defining-dit-biggest-misconception-dits

 

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46 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Nofilmschool can fuck off.

 

25 minutes ago, noone said:

What I found interesting in that opening post link is that someone actually used the BM pocket cinema camera for a cinema film.

One for, one against...

Edit. Sorry noone, thought you meant the link I posted.

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9 hours ago, Hene1 said:

"We [recorded in] ProRes. In our testing we found that the benefits of shooting Raw didn’t necessarily apply to what this film needed. The ALEXA’s latitude (when shooting ProRes) was enough without going down the post-production path with Raw."

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/cameras-and-lenses-behind-2017-oscar-nominated-films/

So it turns out you can get 8 Oscar nominations (including the cinematography) without shooting RAW or film.

Raw on a camera with highly compressed codec is awesome, raw on a camera with a high quality codec is overrated. I used to shoot raw all the time on a BMCC until I tried prores and realized it wasn't really necessary.

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Most very low budget (under $10 million) features and indies shoot prores. What's more remarkable is the success of such an inexpensive movie.

The Alexa's prores looks 99.9% as good as its RAW and 10X better than most other cameras regardless of recoding format. The difference between prores 422 and 4444 is probably bigger than Alexa prores vs Codex. RAW is not a distribution format or a format that you can see without it first being processed. RAW must be processed eventually and the in-camera processing is very excellent on the Alexa. It's not that the 5D makes a better RAW file than a JPEG; it's that the 5D turns out a worse JPEG than a high end PC turns out a .TIFF from the RAW. The 5D's built in processing needs to be quick and dirty to stay fast and consume minimal power. And this carries over doubly to the 5D's terrible built in video. But an Alexa has that high end PC built in (why it's so big and heavy and battery hungry) and beyond that you're going to a high quality intermediate codec, which you'd go to anyway for vfx, same as you'd go to a TIFF to get to Photoshop. So you're getting the equivalent of a 16 bit TIFF processed with the best settings of the best RAW developer, and that's the best you can get from RAW anyway. It just happens to happen in camera with the Alexa.

RAW is not an image until it's processed, so what's being debated isn't even the superiority of the format but where the processing is done. It is done poorly in a 5D. It is done well on a high end PC. And it's done well in an Alexa.

Unfortunately, this issue became politicized when Red marketed a problem (you need to offload the image processing because the early Reds lacked the power to debayer properly in-camera) as a feature ("in camera RAW"). Unfortunately it's still politicized and people are ignoring that this is among the least important aspects of technical image quality.

The DIT discussion is also politicized. It's a contentious position from both sides. Decent rates ($1k/day is very low for wet hire) that take others years to earn and an attack from producers trying to devalue the position on low budget work. Most of these politics do not relate to enthusiasts (same as Arri raw vs prores) except to further largely unrelated business interests by changing how conventional wisdom perceives something's value.

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37 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Alexa packages are getting cheap. If i were making a narrative, i'd still buy this over any of the new stuff, if i had $17k

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?154082-FS-ARRI-ALEXA-CLASSIC-PACKAGE

Absolutely. You will save $17k in post on one feature alone. And it's always been an affordable rental.

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7 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Alexa packages are getting cheap. If i were making a narrative, i'd still buy this over any of the new stuff, if i had $17k

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?154082-FS-ARRI-ALEXA-CLASSIC-PACKAGE

Oh hell yeah. Used Alexa packages are getting soooooo cheap. They're really taking the piss out of the Red market. You can have a used Alexa now for what used to be the price of a brand new Red One. 90% of people I know would rather shoot Arri over anything else. The only barrier to entry is the weight, power requirements (it has a serious hunger for juice), and necessity for PL mount glass. But new cheap PL mount sets are getting released every month, and once the Minis and Amiras hit the used market complete with EF mount option and in-camera QHD ProRes, it's gonna be over. Finished and done.

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Also chose ProRes, not raw:

Quote

 

"“This movie is all about the characters’ perspectives as they go through extreme circumstances. To get that visually and to get into the heads of the characters, we needed a POV camera that didn’t impede on the actors’ abilities to tell the story, that captured high quality imagery and that could be easily graded so we could build specific feelings and emotions into each POV shot. The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera fit perfectly,” said Bagans. With 75 percent of the movie shot from the lead characters’ point of views, Lawrence and Lafleur worked together to develop a new POV rig that would fit over each of the main characters’ heads and that gave a close up and personal view of what each character was going through. Shooting in ProRes HQ, Lawrence and Lafleur were able to easily take the footage acquired and move it to post production to add specific grades and color correction in DaVinci Resolve, and each character was given their own color scheme."

 

http://bosfcpug.org/zak-bagans-produces-new-film-sympathy-said-the-shark-shot-on-blackmagic-pocket-cinema-cameras/

 

ProRes and raw are surprisingly close, worthwhile considering ProRes instead for the practical benefits:

Quote

 

<< I am excited to have such a great B Camera shooting ProresHQ and not have to take a large hit on image quality. This would not have been possible even three years ago. I would say without a doubt that the Black Magic Cinema Camera could be called a Baby Alexa. >>


 

Other interesting points from that article:

Quote

 

<<There were a few things that I wanted to test on these two cameras. First of which is just how they match in terms of color science. I saw a fantastic test by Ryan E. Walters and his conclusion was that the Black Magic Cinema Camera was closer in color science than the RED. We had the option to go RED as B camera, and chose the Black Magic Cinema based on his test.>>


 

Better than RED! :-D

 

Quote

 

<< For the first Test, I was very surprised – shocked infarct at how well the Black magic cinema camera preformed against the Arri Alexa – aside from depth of field, they were nearly identical. I was not expecting this! I was also even more surprised at how the new Prores HQ held up against RAW. Only a very, very subtle difference. >>


 

And surprisingly close to an Arri Alexa.

https://chazcreative.wordpress.com/2014/07/27/is-the-black-magic-cinema-camera-an-alexa-killer/

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On 1/28/2017 at 10:37 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

RAW is not an image until it's processed, so what's being debated isn't even the superiority of the format but where the processing is done. It is done poorly in a 5D. It is done well on a high end PC. And it's done well in an Alexa.

Unfortunately, this issue became politicized when Red marketed a problem (you need to offload the image processing because the early Reds lacked the power to debayer properly in-camera) as a feature ("in camera RAW"). Unfortunately it's still politicized and people are ignoring that this is among the least important aspects of technical image quality.

Nicely put summary of an explanation! Of both the "why", and the history. 

On 1/28/2017 at 10:37 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

The DIT discussion is also politicized. It's a contentious position from both sides. Decent rates ($1k/day is very low for wet hire) that take others years to earn and an attack from producers trying to devalue the position on low budget work. Most of these politics do not relate to enthusiasts (same as Arri raw vs prores) except to further largely unrelated business interests by changing how conventional wisdom perceives something's value.

How do you get started on that ladder towards being a DIT earning $1K+/day? Say you're working mostly in some other role, how would you transition across?

On 1/28/2017 at 10:44 PM, Jimmy said:

Alexa packages are getting cheap. If i were making a narrative, i'd still buy this over any of the new stuff, if i had $17k

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?154082-FS-ARRI-ALEXA-CLASSIC-PACKAGE

That is nothing! I've seen it go on eBay for thousands and thousands cheaper!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Arri-ALEXA-EV-PLUS-CAMERA-/152090525191

I bet the day Arri starts shipping lots of a new Alexa 4K camera with a new chip in it, then these older ones will drop fast even further in price!

Only biggest downside to them is you HAVE TO shoot with PL lenses :-/ I think you've got zero other options!! :-( :-/ Aside from the new Arri Alexa Mini (which is still very expensive), and that one can swap out to have other mounts than PL. 

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