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iPhone 12 Pro Max - "ProRAW" and 5 axis IBIS


Andrew Reid

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7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

The story is and will always be king... no one cares about great quality crap (but I can think of a few films where this is not true).

10 years just about EVERYBODY on the planet that can afford a phone will have the same motion picture IQ power we currently have.

Best to question "what exactly do I bring to the table when offering video production services?"  If your answer is "the camera" you need to start getting really paranoid.  Most clients are not going to fret about DXO scores. If that's where your attention lies (and there's nothing really wrong with that) I hope you're aspiring to a much higher echelon of production than I am!

I'm pretty close to retirement so my day in the sun with all this stuff is coming to an end.  Looks like I'll be riding the imaging technical wave as it crashes onto the beach.

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10 years just about EVERYBODY on the planet that can afford a phone will have the same motion picture IQ power we currently have. Best to question "what exactly do I bring to the table when offer

Pretty amazing https://www.eoshd.com/news/iphone-12-pro-max-marches-into-enthusiast-and-pro-photography-territory-with-new-apple-proraw-lidar-dolby-vision-and-large-sensor/

That really did not look good to me. Pretty scenery sure, but the image itself didn't blow me away. Overly sharpened with a high shutter speed, surprised he didn't use an ND on it. 

I actually like the IPhone 12 Mini the most. My favorite iPhone was the boxy 4S. I’m tired of paying $1200 for a huge phone. It’s a tool for me. It should slip in my pocket and disappear until I need to navigate, call, messaged, or lookup public transit times.

So glad they went back to the boxy shape and smaller size with the mini. Price is still pretty high.

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9 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

I think chivo earned a pretty penny for this one. 

I was wondering what that film crew was doing in my hometown last month...He was here doing "Last Days in the Desert" a few years ago so I bet he used that knowledge of location to bang out this PR piece.  Man, I really need to befriend someone at park services to find out what the heck is happening.  We have crews coming through all the time.  These folks literally stay across the street from me when they're in town and I never seem to find out about it 'til they're gone.

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Soon they will make a fake f/1.2 bokeh that 98% of people can't realize its fake. But even then I would buy a f/1.2 lens if its in my budget range. Because I do enjoy using that kind of thing. Probably I will have fewer choices by then, and more expensive ones, due to inevitable bankruptcy of some ILC brands and very low production volume.. but it will encourage me more to get it. 

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12 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

That really did not look good to me. Pretty scenery sure, but the image itself didn't blow me away. Overly sharpened with a high shutter speed, surprised he didn't use an ND on it. 

Just watched... These type of PROs ain't used to this level of devices, so they don't even realize Camera2 API exists in order to have sharpness under control:

Pure marketing. Not the best skillful pro to put behind a mobile device like this one is :- )

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@Andrew Reid considering how good these things are getting, is it now possible to start ranking phones against cheaper cameras?  All the discussion is phones vs phones or cameras vs cameras, but I'm curious when we can start comparing them directly.

Or maybe it's obvious and I'm out of the loop because I'm still using my iPhone 8..

20 hours ago, Nerv said:

its funny but last i checked i thought glass was the most important part of a good image.  why buy Zeiss Master Primes when you can use the plastic lens of a smartphone. it will be a sad day when processed images of a phone will mimic pro equipment...

It will be a great day when the image quality of a consumer device mimics Zeiss Master Primes.

Cameras are tools, and currently the best tools are inaccessible to the vast majority of people who would like to create with them.  Democratisation of image quality is good for art, good for creators, and good for society in general.  The only people it's not good for is technical elitists, or people that are obsessed with equipment and don't care about art.

16 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Am I the only one saddened by AI? What ever happened to a good-old-fashioned camera? I don't want camera's inventing the experience, regardless the quality increase. I know you're going to say: "cameras already do that!" However, there's such a thing as the heavy-handed approach and the subtle approach- I prefer the latter. I'm actively trying to find ways to eliminate the smart phone completely from my life while others are trying to further (and willingly?) addict themselves.

You do realise that if my camera gets better then yours doesn't get worse, right?

and smartphones don't crawl from your nightstand and inject you with heroin while you're sleeping...  improving the camera in a phone will help you to get access to traditional camera equipment, not hinder it, and owning a phone doesn't automatically mean that you are forced at gunpoint to browse social media.

These things are tools.

5 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

10 years just about EVERYBODY on the planet that can afford a phone will have the same motion picture IQ power we currently have.

Best to question "what exactly do I bring to the table when offering video production services?"  If your answer is "the camera" you need to start getting really paranoid.  Most clients are not going to fret about DXO scores. If that's where your attention lies (and there's nothing really wrong with that) I hope you're aspiring to a much higher echelon of production than I am!

I'm pretty close to retirement so my day in the sun with all this stuff is coming to an end.  Looks like I'll be riding the imaging technical wave as it crashes onto the beach.

Agreed.  It's a tough job to convince many people that a photographer is more than a camera-transportation-device, but the more that smartphones get better and people take photos and realise they're not that great even though the picture quality seems fine, the more they'll realise that there is a skill component to things.

The best way to educate the public is to give them the tools and then watch as they discover it's not so easy.

This transition from photographers being technicians who restrict access to the equipment to photographers being artists has been occurring for a very long time.  It used to be that accessing and operating a 8x10 camera wasn't accessible, then it was lenses and lights, then with digital it was the megapixels and lenses, now it's just lenses, and once fake-bokeh is convincing then there will be no technical or ownership barriers at all, which is why the good photographers are the ones who specialise in lighting, composition, posing, set design, concepts, etc.

It's pretty easy to make an Alexa look like a home video.  The equipment won't save the amateurs from needing to be artists.

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I take pictures with my iPhone every day so better image quality is welcome.

One thing this may excel at is shooting in public places without a permit or kit.  A couple of self recording lavalier mic body packs and you could shoot a conversation at a table in a mall that would probably look pretty good.  Also, car interiors could be a good application.

The saying used to be “lights, camera, action” now it’s “no lights, no problem, I got the new iPhone“

Anyways, someday the photos I take of paperwork at work (instead of scanning them) will be ready for the big screen.

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7 hours ago, kye said:

and smartphones don't crawl from your nightstand and inject you with heroin while you're sleeping...  improving the camera in a phone will help you to get access to traditional camera equipment, not hinder it, and owning a phone doesn't automatically mean that you are forced at gunpoint to browse social media.

I have taught 200-300 teenagers in the last few years. Phones, social media, and gaming have stifled their development in a traditional sense. It's not one or two- it's the majority! Doing something without their phone is a problem. The thought of going only one day without playing a video game is a problem. Is that addiction? I'm not sure, but sure does lack variety and it's so bad that now they don't allow phones at the school anymore. You're right, it's not at gunpoint, but do you know anyone who takes heroin at gunpoint? That's not how addiction works.

Unfortunately, I don't really see the value in these devices. 5G? ...4G and 3G were good enough for me. Camera? ...I'm happy with my proper camera. Screen size? ...I prefer the smaller screens if it's supposed to be portable. My point is "progress" is a very subjective term. I don't like what I see.

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2 hours ago, majoraxis said:

Anyways, someday the photos I take of paperwork at work (instead of scanning them) will be ready for the big screen.

and some time after that maybe they'll be able to take my photos of 2-3+ hours of vigorous whiteboard dissuasions and actually make people work together better!  Now that would be the magic of cinema....

2 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

I have taught 200-300 teenagers in the last few years. Phones, social media, and gaming have stifled their development in a traditional sense. It's not one or two- it's the majority! Doing something without their phone is a problem. The thought of going only one day without playing a video game is a problem. Is that addiction? I'm not sure, but sure does lack variety and it's so bad that now they don't allow phones at the school anymore. You're right, it's not at gunpoint, but do you know anyone who takes heroin at gunpoint? That's not how addiction works.

Unfortunately, I don't really see the value in these devices. 5G? ...4G and 3G were good enough for me. Camera? ...I'm happy with my proper camera. Screen size? ...I prefer the smaller screens if it's supposed to be portable. My point is "progress" is a very subjective term. I don't like what I see.

Everything has pros and cons.  Typically the people who think something is bad are either unaware of what was gained, or don't value them as highly as the things that were lost.  Most often things were better in the good old days, but what that doesn't take into account is that the good old days for the 60-year old were when they were in their early 20s and was what the 80-year old was referring to as "the end of civilised society" at the time.  

The things we value and basically everything that our lives and the world are made of are the accumulation of all barbarity and demonic possession of civilised society through the entire history of time.  See this for some examples: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything

There's a great book on social media use that you might find interesting called It's Complicated: The Social Lives of Networked Teens by Danah Boyd which was an incredible read and actually suggested that teens aren't addicted to their phones, but to each other, and that when teens are looking at their phones its much more likely to be in aid of communicating with each other than when an adult is looking at their phone.  A google search found a PDF of the whole thing from the authors website, so if you are looking then apparently it's easy to access.

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2 minutes ago, kye said:

and some time after that maybe they'll be able to take my photos of 2-3+ hours of vigorous whiteboard dissuasions and actually make people work together better!  Now that would be the magic of cinema....

Everything has pros and cons.  Typically the people who think something is bad are either unaware of what was gained, or don't value them as highly as the things that were lost.  Most often things were better in the good old days, but what that doesn't take into account is that the good old days for the 60-year old were when they were in their early 20s and was what the 80-year old was referring to as "the end of civilised society" at the time.  

The things we value and basically everything that our lives and the world are made of are the accumulation of all barbarity and demonic possession of civilised society through the entire history of time.  See this for some examples: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything

There's a great book on social media use that you might find interesting called It's Complicated: The Social Lives of Networked Teens by Danah Boyd which was an incredible read and actually suggested that teens aren't addicted to their phones, but to each other, and that when teens are looking at their phones its much more likely to be in aid of communicating with each other than when an adult is looking at their phone.  A google search found a PDF of the whole thing from the authors website, so if you are looking then apparently it's easy to access.

The world is shit. People are shit. The end. Do you like my film proposal? Inspiring, isn't it? 🙂

I've heard the arguments for and against phones, social media, and gaming... On Sunday, I heard Leo Laporte talk about it again on the radio. I listen to other podcasts where they talk about it. I'm in my mid 40s and I too have struggled with issues with addiction to gaming, phones, and social media. I have real world experience with the "future leaders" of the world. My optimistic conclusion for the moment is looking more and more like WALL-E, the Disney/Pixar film. I don't knee-jerkingly say "everything new sucks." That's not me.

Just embracing everything tech can have its own issues. For one, humanity's demise. Remember, tech is often used for controlling people, winning wars, and total domination. Now, is it all innocent and good?

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I am disappointed that the A14 chip is only 5% faster than A13 and Snapdragon has now overtaken it. Never thought this would happen.

The bigger 12mp sensor is now on par with S20 line, but all S20 models get it, not just the biggest one. 5G is non-news ... when was 4G not fast enough?

I do like that they are sticking to their guns and keeping the trio of lens modules, just making them better iteratively (not the ocean of useless combinations in the Android world).

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14 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

The world is shit. People are shit. The end. Do you like my film proposal? Inspiring, isn't it? 🙂

I've heard the arguments for and against phones, social media, and gaming... On Sunday, I heard Leo Laporte talk about it again on the radio. I listen to other podcasts where they talk about it. I'm in my mid 40s and I too have struggled with issues with addiction to gaming, phones, and social media. I have real world experience with the "future leaders" of the world. My optimistic conclusion for the moment is looking more and more like WALL-E, the Disney/Pixar film. I don't knee-jerkingly say "everything new sucks." That's not me.

Just embracing everything tech can have its own issues. For one, humanity's demise. Remember, tech is often used for controlling people, winning wars, and total domination. Now, is it all innocent and good?

Read the book.  The title isn't an accident.

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39 minutes ago, kye said:

Read the book.  The title isn't an accident.

I looked it up on the evilcorp Amazon, but I'm afraid I'm going to pass on this book... too many bad, thoughtful reviews. I don't buy new stuff anyway, but I might get it if I find it used. I appreciate the extraordinary effort you made to prove to me that phone usage is all ok this world. After all, what could go wrong? 🙂

Going back to the iPhone 12 Pro Max, that thing look tablet-sized, only 1 inch less than the iPad mini. I'm really surprised Apple is making them bigger and bigger. Someone must want it... maybe if it's your only device/screen.

I used Lumafusion a number of times, but the audio syncing is what forced me back to my Mac and FCPX. It was just way too cumbersome. Anyone know of an app you can automatically sync audio and video or is that still a no-go?

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5 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said:

I am disappointed that the A14 chip is only 5% faster than A13 and Snapdragon has now overtaken it. Never thought this would happen.

Erm. This is entirely wrong I'm afraid.

5 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said:

The bigger 12mp sensor is now on par with S20 line, but all S20 models get it, not just the biggest one. 5G is non-news ... when was 4G not fast enough?

1/1.7" on the iPhone 12 Pro Max.

The S20 Ultra has a larger sensor but it is pixel binned and frankly looks pretty dire compared to the closest Android rivals like Huawei P40 Pro and Mi 10 Pro (which uses the same sensor but pixel bins to a higher resolution 25MP with superior image processing and better quality 8K video).

 

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9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Erm. This is entirely wrong I'm afraid.

1/1.7" on the iPhone 12 Pro Max.

The S20 Ultra has a larger sensor but it is pixel binned and frankly looks pretty dire compared to the closest Android rivals like Huawei P40 Pro and Mi 10 Pro (which uses the same sensor but pixel bins to a higher resolution 25MP with superior image processing and better quality 8K video).

 

Larger sensor still had advantage on nature bokeh, especially on video!

But 65m is not far enough, i really like the 5x zoom on my note20 ultra, no longer I need 24-105 for travel, I just use 20-60 and tele on my phone if I need more reach. 

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Back in 2001, Apple announced their computer as a "digital hub". I essentially still work like this, maybe using online backups only as a third backup. All my music, video (shot personally or ripped), photos, and documents are still on physical drive that I control. In recent years, Apple and others have been shoving the cloud down our throats, but does anyone actually work like this? For the person that does exclusively use the cloud, I could see a real benefit of a phone like the 12 Pro Max. The experience of touch and small screen still seems poor at best. It seems I only use touch if I absolutely have to. I feel so at home with big screens, a keyboard, and a mouse.

 

 

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On 10/15/2020 at 12:07 AM, Emanuel said:

Just watched... These type of PROs ain't used to this level of devices, so they don't even realize Camera2 API exists in order to have sharpness under control:

Pure marketing. Not the best skillful pro to put behind a mobile device like this one is :- )

Camera2 API is for Android.

iOS camera API does not yet allow sharpness/noise reduction control in either photo or video mode.

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45 minutes ago, androidlad said:

Camera2 API is for Android.

iOS camera API does not yet allow sharpness/noise reduction control in either photo or video mode.

iOS is not my beach so far, I am not actually their user, therefore, an extra advantage to the Android side... ;- )

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