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Fuji X-H2 - They can't decide whether to cancel it... Or?


Andrew Reid
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10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The problem is the pricing... APS-C doesn't really allow much headroom beyond £1500.

Super 35mm has a very high price ceiling if you're building a cinema camera.... so stick TC / NDs / SDI / XLR / AES / ProRes into that!

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6 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@BTM_Pix because XC is such a brilliant design, maybe not perfect for a lot of us, but there is certainly some market for it. I was reading somewhere a year ago that XC exceeded Canon's predictions. It is a hard sell at this price for 2020 though..

XC15 came out in 2016, which was itself a modest upgrade from the XC10 in 2015

Time for another modest update of the XC10/XC15 then? 

Give it 4K DCI, TC, the better lens from the RX10 series, 10bit internal, 240fps FHD, etc

 

6 hours ago, Kisaha said:

We are still waiting for the new JVC also, I am certain there will be one at some point in 2020 or 2021.

The JVC LS300 is also from 2015!
 

  

6 hours ago, currensheldon said:

I think APS-C does have more headroom when it becomes a compact Super35 video camera, and that's what Fuji should do. Take the space of 10-bit 4k (60-120fps max) Super35 abandoned by Sony and Canon with no real updates to the C100 and FS5 in 5 - 7 years. I still think there is a HUGE gap here. Yes, mirrorless cameras are incredibly powerful and yes you could just get a C200/FS7, but I want the compact size of a C100 or XC-15 + things like internal NDs and XLRs.

A compact $3k - $5k video camera from Fuji would be very successful I think. And then have the XT4 as a B-Cam. Sounds excellent. 


Indeed Sony and Canon have abandoned the entry level S35 market. 

Long time since the C100 or FS5 got an update (and the FS5mk2 barely counts!). And they've never ever given us 10bit for sub $5K

But it isn't just Sony/Canon who are forgetting about the entry level S35 market, like we just mentioned before, JVC has been a long time without an update to the LS300. Five years. 

Not even Blackmagic Design is active in this niche! As they've crept up in price, their latest cinema camera (not merely a S35 sensor in a Pocket body) is $6K! Their last S35 cinema camera which was sub $5K was also five years ago. 

And where is Panasonic? The Panasonic EVA1 is "only" from 2017, but that was much more aimed at FS7/C300 shooters (EVA1 was initially US$7.5K, now US$6.5K). And dinosaurs roamed the earth when Panasonic last gave us a cinema camera with a mirrorless mount with their AF100 series. 

There is an opportunity here for Fuji / Nikon to launch a mirrorless cinema camera using their existing tech (plus a little more, like NDs & TC) for sub $5K. (ideally sub $4K, or even sub $3K)

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Everybody think Nikon started the DSLR video revolution with the D90 in 2009 but actually it started in 1988 for Nikon

With a stills-video camera that you put floppy disks in the back of...

https://www.digitalkameramuseum.de/en/esvc/item/nikon-qv-1000c-1988

They also had a very snazzy 10-40mm F1.4 zoom lens for it.

$15k for the black and white (monochrome sensor) version.

Screenshot 2020-04-15 at 13.54.20.png

Screenshot 2020-04-15 at 13.54.13.png

Before that there was the infamous Nikon Color Video Camera fuck-up.

https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/cousins20-e/index.htm

s100_8930.jpg

In the early 2000's they got to the twisty grip XC-10 point, ergonomically, long before Canon!

frontview.jpeg

No 10bit 4K though.

If pro cine cameras are still going to be a no-go for Fuji, then they should at least do this with the X-H2...

- Internal electronically variable ND like FS5

- Same small body design but larger and clearer display to focus off

- Detachable EVF like GFX 100

- Wider than APS-C sensor (multi-aspect)

- 4K 120fps

Or failing that just the ND and larger screen with X-T3 sensor, thanks.

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39 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Everybody think Nikon started the DSLR video revolution with the D90 in 2009 but actually it started in 1988 for Nikon

With a stills-video camera that you put floppy disks in the back of...

https://www.digitalkameramuseum.de/en/esvc/item/nikon-qv-1000c-1988

The moniker "stills video" is a bit confusing though, because it meant - back in that time - that it was technically an analog video camera that captured still images. You couldn't record moving images with it.

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2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Everybody think Nikon started the DSLR video revolution with the D90 in 2009 but actually it started in 1988 for Nikon

With a stills-video camera that you put floppy disks in the back of...

https://www.digitalkameramuseum.de/en/esvc/item/nikon-qv-1000c-1988

They also had a very snazzy 10-40mm F1.4 zoom lens for it.

$15k for the black and white (monochrome sensor) version.

Screenshot 2020-04-15 at 13.54.20.png

Screenshot 2020-04-15 at 13.54.13.png

 

This is a fascinating long read about the QV1000C.

https://www.nikonweb.com/qv1000c/

For a pretty obscure not to mention very rare camera (I have actually only ever seen one of the less than 20 still in existence when I was at the Nikon museum) it racked up a couple of serious firsts in being the first electronic image used in a UK newspaper and the first electronic image distributed by the Associated Press.

A couple of interesting stories along the way in that article as well particularly about it secretly being used at Photokina !

 

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6 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I do wonder what the reaction would be at a Nikon or Fuji product meeting if someone put their hand up and said "I think we should make an s35 camcorder with an integral 8 x optical zoom lens".

Probably this, unfortunately.

blink 182 wtf GIF

Meanwhile at the Pentax product meeting...

Screenshot 2020-04-15 at 18.13.42.png

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If their technology is more or less topping out within the XT line I can't see them putting a more expensive/larger camera just above it. A similar rationale that they won't release a full frame camera?

They have the GFX if you really want to spend some cash... obviously would be cool if they could create many new cameras to make everyone happy, but they have to be smart about it to survive surely.

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3 hours ago, mrtreve said:

If their technology is more or less topping out within the XT line I can't see them putting a more expensive/larger camera just above it. A similar rationale that they won't release a full frame camera?

They have the GFX if you really want to spend some cash... obviously would be cool if they could create many new cameras to make everyone happy, but they have to be smart about it to survive surely.

Yeah but they say the Xh2 is supposed to be video focused. Why not go all the way, since they are already deviating from their photography focus roots.

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9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Everybody think Nikon started the DSLR video revolution with the D90 in 2009 but actually it started in 1988 for Nikon

With a stills-video camera that you put floppy disks in the back of...

https://www.digitalkameramuseum.de/en/esvc/item/nikon-qv-1000c-1988

They also had a very snazzy 10-40mm F1.4 zoom lens for it.

$15k for the black and white (monochrome sensor) version.

Wow. Just wow. 

That's AMAZING!

Nikon thought up an HDSLR before there was even "HD"!image.thumb.png.2b086410fec666bee1b81a7e56772aa2.png

Edit: nope, this is definitely a stills only camera. 

Would have been super cool if true though!

https://www.nikonweb.com/qv1000c/

However Nikon did release the  "Color Video Camera S-100" in June 1982

https://www.nikonweb.com/s100/

 

Quote

The QV-1000C was developed by Nikon's Electronic Imaging Development Division. Mikio Takemae was the leader of the development team. Tadashi Ohta and Koichi Higashi were also members of the team, to name a few. Kenji Toyoda was the planning manager in charge of the QV-1000C. Asking how many people worked in Nikon's Electronic Imaging Division at the time: "it's a company secret".

Curious if the S-100 could be considered a predecessor to the QV-1000C, Kenji Toyoda replies:

"Partly 'yes' and partly 'no'. As you know, the video movie camera and the still video camera are different in many aspects. So, there are some technologies in the QV-1000C which were inherited from the S-100. On the other hand, there are a lot of technologies which had to be newly developed for the QV-1000C. The S-100 might be a great uncle of the QV-1000C rather than a direct predecessor."


That's a funny quote, "great uncle of the QV-1000C"

 

image.png.3cd4903e4cbcaa861c97feb0f11d6959.png

 

Ohhhhh... that's cool, the Nikon SVC prototype was developed by Panasonic! (Matsushita Electric)

 

Quote

According to the letter: "Quantity of press kits that tokyo will send you is 20 copies. These will be send by airmail. You are kindly requested to hand-out these press-kits to the professional photographers only who are interested in this information". The letter is signed by T. Murakami, General Manager, Consumer Products Department.

It could almost seem like Nikon wanted to limit the demand for their brand new electronic camera. Which is exactly how it was! Kenji Toyoda explains:

"At that time, the management of Nikon was very reluctant to sell this camera. Though Nikon developed this model to respond to strong requirement from newspapers, production of this system caused significant amount of financial loss. So, as a planning manager in charge of the QV-1000C system, I was told to make as few units as we could to suppress the loss. Each time we sold a QV-1000C, the loss of Nikon Electronic Imaging Department increased significantly."

Asking why Nikon didn't simply increase the price, Mr. Toyoda replies:

"It's not so simple. If we had increased the price to get sufficient profit, it must have been so expensive that no one would purchase the camera. The price must be reasonable for the customers. But the loss must be suppressed to the acceptable level. So, it was decided as a compromise."


Wow. Just wow once again. 
They wanted to LIMIT the number of sales they made. 

Because every sale = a loss for Nikon

So why even sell any at all?

I assume because Nikon saw a future with this, and that being early to market and getting customer feedback (basically a large scale form of beta testing in the 1980's) had a long term pay off?

After all later on Nikon was then first to market with a DSLR, with their Kodak / Nikon joint release in 1991. (the Kodak DCS 100 was even more expensive than the Nikon QV-1000C!)

image.png.539f870b703af977dcccaa94880c2b12.png

Quote

But I digress, so to get right to the matter, we had a few QV-1000's to loan, as Tokyo was eager to repeat their success in Japan by getting it to European and North American agencies. And yes, one did indeed make its way to the AP, although I am not sure I would classify this as a "sale".

AP was anxious to test it and we had a willing tester, and that's the simple way things worked at Nikon and other camera makers at the time. We consigned prototypes and production equipment to our most enthusiastic customers, and that equipment rarely made its way back to our consignment locker, which could be a problem because all these consignments would go out under the requestor's names, and we were individually responsible for getting equipment returned. The company would send us statements every month detailing, in many cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of inventory that they would eventually write off after they had come to terms with the fact that the equipment was simply not coming home.

For this reason, it is possible you might find QV-1000 cameras and lenses, or perhaps even an intact kit as there were several that "disappeared" (check yard sales...we found an LS-3500 scanner, new, in a dumpster in Washington DC in 1992).

 

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6 hours ago, mrtreve said:

If their technology is more or less topping out within the XT line I can't see them putting a more expensive/larger camera just above it. A similar rationale that they won't release a full frame camera?


Almost nobody is proposing that Fuji needs to massively push forward their sensor tech with a new cinema camera. (although of course when a X-T5 is launched, that should have a new sensor, and it is reasonable if a X-H2 comes out a similar time that will share the same sensor)

But Fuji could make a Fuji S35 cinema camera with essentially the same sensor tech inside as the X-T3/X-T4, heck it could even keep the same codecs! (although industry standard ProRes would be good, and raw would be a cheery on top)

Rather it is features like SDI, full size HDMI, LUTs on output, dual media, proxy recordings, internal NDs, XLR, TC, etc that could all be added. 

 

  

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

We've come a long way from floppy disks. Now, one frame from a 400Mbps GH5 file at 24fps won't fit on it. I remember playing oregon trail as a kid. It was like 10 floppies or something.

Yikes! 10?

I remember liking to play Civilisation 1 back in the early 2000's because:
1) it's a great game!
2) I could play Civ1 from a single floppy disk
 

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Yikes! 10?

It was on the older, larger floppys. I think I was in 4th grade or something. I remember when a member of our party died in game you could write a small message on their tombstone. You could imagine what our pre-teen brains came up with...

When you came across a tombstone anywhere in the game you could read what was written on the tombstone.

Good times.

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I don't see anything possibly bad about Fuji doing a cinema camera. Big battery, good codecs, internal RAW, 1000 knit big screen, internal ND's(don't even need to be electronic), good AF(maybe more video focused). Why not blow the market away with something great. It wouldn't have to take away from their XT3 sales. Price it around $4000 or so. I don't think most people buying an XT3 would buy $4000 cinema camera over that. It would just be like a new market they can get. 

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12 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I don't see anything possibly bad about Fuji doing a cinema camera. Big battery, good codecs, internal RAW, 1000 knit big screen, internal ND's(don't even need to be electronic), good AF(maybe more video focused). Why not blow the market away with something great. It wouldn't have to take away from their XT3 sales. Price it around $4000 or so. I don't think most people buying an XT3 would buy $4000 cinema camera over that. It would just be like a new market they can get. 

Exactly. One is a hybrid the other will be clearly a video camera.

It is amazing that most - usually young people, or photographers - can't fully grasp the concept of a dedicated video tool!

With mobiles and newer cameras do both, people have lost the concept of specialising.

How many people do you know that they shoot video with 1/500 shutter speed? I see that all the time. So, no need for internal ND!

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I don't understand why internal ND filters are not included in more cameras INCLUDING hybrid/stills cameras.

Having a built in ND filter that can be switched on and off at the flick of a switch is one thing i love about my ancient Canon G10 camera with a P&S sensor.     I wish it had better video but is from a time when that was just an add on.     

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I remember reading somewhere that Sony has a patent for in-body electronic variable ND and that's why it's almost inexistent in any other camera apart from Sony FS line. 

That may explain why Panavision came up with this solution: 

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/32429-panavision-announce-new-electronic-nd-filter-powered-by-built-in-battery/

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27 minutes ago, heart0less said:

I remember reading somewhere that Sony has a patent for in-body electronic variable ND and that's why it's almost inexistent in any other camera apart from Sony FS line. 

That may explain why Panavision came up with this solution: 

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/32429-panavision-announce-new-electronic-nd-filter-powered-by-built-in-battery/

Maybe but i would not even mind a simple non variable one.

The Canon G# Powershot higher end P&S cameras have ND filters like my old G10 and while just the on/off settings, it is brilliant.

I have been looking at the G1x cameras with them...a lot to like, a sensor larger than M43 and a lot of controls (like the old G10)...trouble is that Canon seems to have greatly crippled video deliberately in all of these, the G10 has VGA and it is supposed to be quite nice but no real control other than the ND filter (I have not tried it other than mucking around).    The G1x has full HD but again, i do not think it has much (if any) real control.   The first version G1x is quite cheap second hand.

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33 minutes ago, noone said:

Maybe but i would not even mind a simple non variable one.

The Canon G# Powershot higher end P&S cameras have ND filters like my old G10 and while just the on/off settings, it is brilliant.

I have been looking at the G1x cameras with them...a lot to like, a sensor larger than M43 and a lot of controls (like the old G10)...trouble is that Canon seems to have greatly crippled video deliberately in all of these, the G10 has VGA and it is supposed to be quite nice but no real control other than the ND filter (I have not tried it other than mucking around).    The G1x has full HD but again, i do not think it has much (if any) real control.   The first version G1x is quite cheap second hand.

The Canon G# looks similar to what Fuji has been doing with X100 series. I think problem lies in that these are fixed lens cameras so maybe there is some magic in how the lens is "mounted"? 

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