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Sony A7R IV / A7S III / A9 II to feature 8K video, as new 60MP and 36MP full frame sensor specs leak

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2 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I am not really sure about the A7III being better in low light then the A7SIII. When you get into the higher ISO's heavier NR is apparent and the image is softer.

36mp is also a big jump from 26mp. We'll see I guess.

Agreed.

For MOST uses and even at quite high ISOs the A7iii may well be better for low light but one you get above ISO 51200, the A7s cameras are still slightly better I think.

Not to mention AF works to a lower level (even if only AFS and not really for video).

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It would appear that 8K is not possible on a m4/3 chip size according to Panasonic. The main reason for the new FF S1R I guess.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://mizuwari.fr/index.php/2018/09/12/un-hybride-24-x-36-mm-signe-panasonic-une-folle-rumeur-pas-si-folle/&xid=17259,15700021,15700124,15700149,15700186,15700191,15700201,15700237&usg=ALkJrhi2HRUYPDS333HUJqSaphRfsHZYMA

Part 1 of the above article.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmizuwari.fr%2Findex.php%2F2018%2F11%2F29%2Fsalon-de-la-photo-2018-panasonic-lumix-hybrides-24-x-36-mm-alliance-l-service-lumix-pro-le-point-avec-mathilde-lecuyer%2F

Sort of the lead in to the link above.

"About the future: the 8K in 2020 and the reflex / hybrid rocker

2,020, 8K objective. How do you see it happening, confident or not, because 2020 is almost tomorrow?

Confident, yes, because so far we have always been right to trust our engineers at Panasonic. They have always kept their deadlines and their promises. We had no doubt that we would arrive in full format one day or another, because technically speaking the 8K on Micro 4/3 is complicated, if not impossible . So the full format today allows us to access, in the long run, this 8K which is actually developing as it was announced at photokina two years ago now, and remains announced as available in 2020".

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7 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I am not really sure about the A7III being better in low light then the A7SIII. When you get into the higher ISO's heavier NR is apparent and the image is softer.

36mp is also a big jump from 26mp. We'll see I guess.

I watched a video of them going through the iso range with the a7iii and for a split second, you could see the actual noise, before the built in NR filter hit. 

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Look at the chip size. Even if they put this in A7S, they will ditch the IBIS, cause it would have issues with moving 39mm wide sensor in that restrictive mount. It also helps them handle the heat.

However, this is off-the-shelf chip (Sony Semi doesn't need to write marketing stuff for Sony Imaging, right?), meaning its available for camera makers to buy NOW. Its very unlikely that they use a sensor for their upcoming camera AFTER it was available for others. 

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A bit of context...

1. Sony have 3 main line of Camera: 

  • Alpha: Prosumer, photo camera that can shoot video
  • FS(5 or 7), F5 and F(55 or 65): Super35 Cinema camera
  • Venice: Full Frame Cinema camera

In all those only the F65 shoot 8K. Neither the Venice, F5, F7 or F55 actually shoot 8K. 

2. 8K 60MP (or 75MP) at 24fps generate a huge amount of data, that needs to be processed, and stored somewhere. This require fast multi-processor or multi-core to compute all that branch of 0 & 1 into something we can use actually to tell our story. Such type of processor for a such intensive hungry computing generate... heat and therefore, needs a good cooling system, what you have in any Cinema Camera that part of the reason why Cinema Camera are bulky!

3. Hungry Processing needs more power, meaning bigger or more effective battery or more power efficient processor or a combination of both of the latest in the best case.

4. SD card will not be enough. Will need CFast, CFExpress or XQD (if still exist)

With that in mind, in order to put such Sensor (because the rumour was only on the Sensor) in a Sony Alpha A7x body, Sony will have to fix:

  • the processing issue,
  • the heat issue generated by the processor (and the sensor) otherwise you guys will be the first to say that this Camera is not usable because of overheating (I guess Sony already learned this lesson),
  • and the battery issue, otherwise you'll complain about poor battery life that does not last a full day of shooting

Other thing, by putting these Sensor (35, 60, 75 MP) in their Alpha body, Sony will eventually Cannibalised his Cinema line up (at least the FS). Those Camera main differentiator will then be the RAW capabilities, eventually higher bit rate.

So I don't think those new sensor will come in the any of the Sony Alpha body soon, they may be going in newer version of the Sony Cinema lineup. Don't be too enthusiast just by a new sensor announcement rumor. Wait for the real rumor on the new A7SIII or A7IV or A7000 to be exited!

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A new sensor just surfaced, IMX455, a stripped down version of IMX551 available off-the-shelf.

Effective pixels: 9600x6400
Recommend recording pixels: 60MP
11/12/14/16Bit ADC
Full Pixel 9fps/14Bit ADC
SLVS-EC 8Lane
Single ADC in Video Mode
12-ADC in Still Picture Mode
Native ISO 64/400

IMX455.thumb.jpg.2779d925112680281307003166a1d1e1.jpg

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10 hours ago, dangrafics said:

A bit of context...

1. Sony have 3 main line of Camera: 

  • Alpha: Prosumer, photo camera that can shoot video
  • FS(5 or 7), F5 and F(55 or 65): Super35 Cinema camera
  • Venice: Full Frame Cinema camera

In all those only the F65 shoot 8K. Neither the Venice, F5, F7 or F55 actually shoot 8K. 

2. 8K 60MP (or 75MP) at 24fps generate a huge amount of data, that needs to be processed, and stored somewhere. This require fast multi-processor or multi-core to compute all that branch of 0 & 1 into something we can use actually to tell our story. Such type of processor for a such intensive hungry computing generate... heat and therefore, needs a good cooling system, what you have in any Cinema Camera that part of the reason why Cinema Camera are bulky!

3. Hungry Processing needs more power, meaning bigger or more effective battery or more power efficient processor or a combination of both of the latest in the best case.

4. SD card will not be enough. Will need CFast, CFExpress or XQD (if still exist)

With that in mind, in order to put such Sensor (because the rumour was only on the Sensor) in a Sony Alpha A7x body, Sony will have to fix:

  • the processing issue,
  • the heat issue generated by the processor (and the sensor) otherwise you guys will be the first to say that this Camera is not usable because of overheating (I guess Sony already learned this lesson),
  • and the battery issue, otherwise you'll complain about poor battery life that does not last a full day of shooting

Other thing, by putting these Sensor (35, 60, 75 MP) in their Alpha body, Sony will eventually Cannibalised his Cinema line up (at least the FS). Those Camera main differentiator will then be the RAW capabilities, eventually higher bit rate.

So I don't think those new sensor will come in the any of the Sony Alpha body soon, they may be going in newer version of the Sony Cinema lineup. Don't be too enthusiast just by a new sensor announcement rumor. Wait for the real rumor on the new A7SIII or A7IV or A7000 to be exited!

These new sensors are specifically designed for industrial and/or consumer digital stills camera with video capabilities. And Sony have put just enough restrictions on the video side in these sensors so they won't cannibalise the cinema lineup.

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On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:09 AM, Shirozina said:

The CFA density dictates the colour fidelity and accuracy. Increased subsampling will help but I repeat it can't invent colours that were not captured. By this I'm talking the very slightest differences in hues needed to get critical colours in skin tones right. I shoot 8k stills in 14bit RAW but I don't get a miraculous improvement in colour by sunsampling to 2k and certainly not anything approaching the quality in colour from a good MF digital back which isn't trading sensitivity for colour fidelity with weaker CFA density.  

You are going to get much better color accuracy from an 8K image downsampled to 2K  than you are going to get from straight 2K simply because you are getting more color information from a virtual pixel. A virtual pixel sampled in multiples of red green and blue subpixels is going to be more accurate than a pixel sampled in one of the three colors. What more is there to explain, if that is not obvious? It is not going to be fully accurate, but it will be pretty close. If you are not getting the colors you want it is more down to your post processing adjustments than anything else.

1 hour ago, androidlad said:

These new sensors are specifically designed for industrial and/or consumer digital stills camera with video capabilities. And Sony have put just enough restrictions on the video side in these sensors so they won't cannibalise the cinema lineup.

It has nothing to do with preventing "cannibalization". The differences in the product line ups are due to processor capabilities. If you have a large video specific camera it is much easier to keep the processor cool during shooting. Cooler processors mean higher clock speeds and more capability and hence more functions/IQ. MILCs will always be second class to dedicated video equipment for this reason, it has nothing to do with market segmentation outside of the fact that the equipment is physically different so that it can be used optimally in one function or the other.

The whole cannibalization nonsense is a myth started by consumers who want what big pro cameras can do without understanding exactly why those cameras can do it while their little MILC can't. So they stamp their feet and pout, but really it is just that they have a simplistic view of the technology involved.

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10 minutes ago, Mokara said:

You are going to get much better color accuracy from an 8K image downsampled to 2K  than you are going to get from straight 2K simply because you are getting more color information from a virtual pixel. A virtual pixel sampled in multiples of red green and blue subpixels is going to be more accurate than a pixel sampled in one of the three colors. What more is there to explain, if that is not obvious? It is not going to be fully accurate, but it will be pretty close. If you are not getting the colors you want it is more down to your post processing adjustments than anything else.

It has nothing to do with preventing "cannibalization". The differences in the product line ups are due to processor capabilities. If you have a large video specific camera it is much easier to keep the processor cool during shooting. Cooler processors mean higher clock speeds and more capability and hence more functions/IQ. MILCs will always be second class to dedicated video equipment for this reason, it has nothing to do with market segmentation outside of the fact that the equipment is physically different so that it can be used optimally in one function or the other.

The whole cannibalization nonsense is a myth started by consumers who want what big pro cameras can do without understanding exactly why those cameras can do it while their little MILC can't. So they stamp their feet and pout, but really it is just that they have a simplistic view of the technology involved.

Nah.

Take IMX455 vs IMX551 for example, IMX455 restricts video mode sensor readout to only 1 ADC while IMX551 can use all 12. The volume of data is the same, it's a drastic difference in speed.

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Seems a 60MP model is coming at two prices then. One with kick-ass video and one which is more stills orientated.

With so many sensors, Sony might have to expand the camera range.

A new dedicated hybrid video model anyone?

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Don't most of these off shelf sensors go to non-Sony manufacturers? Has the A7S/A7S2/A7RIII etc sensors ever made their way into other camera brand models?

Sorry, but i'm just not sure these sensor announcements translate into A7S specs.. 

I certainly don't see a +30MP sensor inside A7S3.. typically high MP are for R series.. 20-30MP for the mid-range A7.. and sub-20 (12MP so far) for the A7S.

Low megapixel still means better low-light performance. Sony has narrowed the gap with A73 using BSI sensors & NR algos, but in reality A7S2 > A7III in low-light.

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On 12/2/2018 at 8:31 PM, Oliver Daniel said:

It’s highly, highly, highly, highly unlikely you’ll get those kind of specs in the A7SIII. 

I think it will look like:

- 4k 60fps (10bit external) 

- Better lowlight, battery, EVF etc 

- PDAF

- Higher MP 

- One surprise (like a 4k 120fps burst mode) 

exactly

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23 minutes ago, Django said:

Don't most of these off shelf sensors go to non-Sony manufacturers? Has the A7S/A7S2/A7RIII etc sensors ever made their way into other camera brand models?

Sorry, but i'm just not sure these sensor announcements translate into A7S specs.. 

I certainly don't see a +30MP sensor inside A7S3.. typically high MP are for R series.. 20-30MP for the mid-range A7.. and sub-20 (12MP so far) for the A7S.

Low megapixel still means better low-light performance. Sony has narrowed the gap with A73 using BSI sensors & NR algos, but in reality A7S2 > A7III in low-light.

Those datasheets are indeed intended for off-the-shelf sensors. But they represent sensor architectures Sony have developed, usually denoted by the number (IMX235 - A7S/A7SII, IMX410 - A7III, IMX251 -A7RII/A7RIII), the letter suffix denotes variants of sensors with different feature set, different interface or other alterations. Sometimes Sony change the number though, for example IMX455 and IMX551 are based on the same architecture.

Low megapixel still means better low-light performance? Well based on the datasheet, many image quality metrics including sensitivity on the 36MP IMX435 are better than A7S II.

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I'm not saying you're not on to something... but the A7SIII rumors have simply been all over the place to the point of it reaching unicorn status.

Sony themselves have sort of admitted going back to the drawing boards and postponing its release.. 

It's one thing to have a great sensor but materializing it into a stable/viable camera is another.

As for sensor data sheets, I don't want to argue with numbers but they don't always reveal the full picture (no pun intended). 

Many claimed A73 > A7S2 in low-light but really the cam got there by "cheating" with heavy use of NR at high ISO values.

Getting back to 8K i think it will be put in the Mark IV Sony cameras, just in time for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.

That is the roadmap deadline the Japanese tech industry has set for 8K consumer product roll-out.

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