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Nikon Z7 is at EOSHD HQ - better video than Sony?


Andrew Reid
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On 10/12/2018 at 11:57 PM, Andrew Reid said:

If we assume the most probably outcome, it's that the Z7 4K looks like the D850 and the Z6 4K looks like the A7 III.

The Z7 4K in full frame mode is excellent, same as my D850. A tiny bit of aliasing on very high contrast diagonal edges, but that is to be expected going 46MP down to 4K. There are no real issues, honestly, same as D850 which I loved. It's detailed, it's cinematic, it's got a ton of dynamic range and a nice codec, with great colour science. Rolling shutter is well controlled. Switch to APS-C mode and it is supersampled from 5K, just like the D850 and the A7R III. In full frame it is slightly superior to the A7R III, slightly smoother looking and less aliasing.

Now the Z6 we are told by Nikon is full pixel readout in full frame (like A7 III) but the APS-C mode has to be upscaled from something like 3K, again same as A7 III. So the Z7 is going to have the better APS-C 4K, and the Z6 will have a MARGINALLY better full frame 4K image assuming it does indeed ape the A7 III's full pixel readout (6K to 4K).

Until the Z6 actually arrives, we won't know for sure, and there may be issues we're not yet aware of or Nikon might decide to take features out, or reduce their potency. On paper, the specs look fine, but the devil might be in the detail.

If it works out as expected, the Z6 is going to be a big fat bargain, and preferable to the A7 III taken as a body in isolation... Once you start talking lenses, adapters, etc. Then it gets more complicated.

It would be a shame if the Z6 doesn't do a 1:1 4K crop mode, even if it isn't exactly APS-C. It would still provide a useful "digital zoom" option for prime lenses without quality loss, unlike an upscaled 3K mode.

13 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

Very interesting video about face detect autofocus, my only gripe is his shutter angle which make it very videoyiii.

 

, my only grype

Try doing that with manual focus! 

Pretty smooth and reliable focus transitions. Exposure transitions between inside and outside are a nightmare, so not badly handled, though as you say presumably relying on changing shutter speed so not ideal for film-look. White balance seems to be locked on interior setting; I don't know whether that could also have been set to auto to cover the transition, perhaps best to film in Log and tweak in post.

Definitely looking a great little run and gun combo for shooting documentary footage

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On 10/13/2018 at 11:57 AM, Andrew Reid said:

If we assume the most probably outcome, it's that the Z7 4K looks like the D850 and the Z6 4K looks like the A7 III.

The Z7 4K in full frame mode is excellent, same as my D850. A tiny bit of aliasing on very high contrast diagonal edges, but that is to be expected going 46MP down to 4K. There are no real issues, honestly, same as D850 which I loved. It's detailed, it's cinematic, it's got a ton of dynamic range and a nice codec, with great colour science. Rolling shutter is well controlled. Switch to APS-C mode and it is supersampled from 5K, just like the D850 and the A7R III. In full frame it is slightly superior to the A7R III, slightly smoother looking and less aliasing.

Now the Z6 we are told by Nikon is full pixel readout in full frame (like A7 III) but the APS-C mode has to be upscaled from something like 3K, again same as A7 III. So the Z7 is going to have the better APS-C 4K, and the Z6 will have a MARGINALLY better full frame 4K image assuming it does indeed ape the A7 III's full pixel readout (6K to 4K).


Sounds like a solid argument for a DX mirrorless using the APS-C section of the Z7 sensor ?

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It seems like the Z cameras are a little bit better than the A7 ones, and Fuji's a lot better than the a6xx ones.

What is going on with Sony?

Are they becoming a sensor's manufacturer?

Something similar happened to Samsung and their chipset (took over from Intel, mainly because of the memory sub-division) division.

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9 hours ago, Kisaha said:

It seems like the Z cameras are a little bit better than the A7 ones, and Fuji's a lot better than the a6xx ones.

What is going on with Sony?

Are they becoming a sensor's manufacturer?

Something similar happened to Samsung and their chipset (took over from Intel, mainly because of the memory sub-division) division.

Sony Sensor division is a separate entity to Sony photo, in fact one is clearly the market leader in a much bigger market now with cell phone etc to the other one which is a distant third. In the end Sony sensor division is much more important for Sony Corp than its camera division and they don't have any interest in loosing clients like Nikon who account for twice the number of sales than Sony cameras. 

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Looks like crop mode has another advantage:

Depending on the reading surface, the readout time of the rolling shutter also changes. Unfortunately, our measurement results are still not as accurate as we would like it to be, but we are getting closer and closer to our requirements: At DX readings, we estimate the readout time of the Nikon Z7 to be around 19ms, with FX readout at about 25ms. 

These are good values, but very good 4K cameras now create read times of 15ms or even less.

 

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2 minutes ago, Django said:

Looks like crop mode has another advantage:

Depending on the reading surface, the readout time of the rolling shutter also changes. Unfortunately, our measurement results are still not as accurate as we would like it to be, but we are getting closer and closer to our requirements: At DX readings, we estimate the readout time of the Nikon Z7 to be around 19ms, with FX readout at about 25ms. 

These are good values, but very good 4K cameras now create read times of 15ms or even less.

 

Wish they would test the RS in 1080p, hell I wish most people would test the 1080p period. I don't need 4K most of the time if 1080p is flawless.

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41 minutes ago, Django said:

Looks like crop mode has another advantage:

Depending on the reading surface, the readout time of the rolling shutter also changes. Unfortunately, our measurement results are still not as accurate as we would like it to be, but we are getting closer and closer to our requirements: At DX readings, we estimate the readout time of the Nikon Z7 to be around 19ms, with FX readout at about 25ms. 

These are good values, but very good 4K cameras now create read times of 15ms or even less.

 

To my unscientific eye I'd put the Z7 FX around 22ms and the EOS R 1.8x crop around 35ms.

I do wonder what difference bit-depth makes to how fast a sensor can get the data off.

It could be that Canon insist in a slower 14bit output, even in video mode (not just for stills) to preserve colour. Canon have always been big on colour.

We know for sure it is a 14bit raw buffer from Magic Lantern even in line-skipped 1080p!

It could be that all these Sony and Nikon sensors doing great video, drop the bit-depth to 12bit or 10bit to achieve the fast readout. Maybe they even drop to 8bit sensor modes and that's why I could never see the difference between 10bit HDMI and 8bit HDMI on the GH4 :)

It also seems Nikon are reading more data in FX on the Z7 than the A7R III because the rolling shutter is less in full frame on that camera in 4K vs Super 35 mode, and it has more aliasing.

 

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11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

To my unscientific eye I'd put the Z7 FX around 22ms and the EOS R 1.8x crop around 35ms.

I do wonder what difference bit-depth makes to how fast a sensor can get the data off.

Bit depth certainly makes a difference to sensor readout - see here.

https://blog.kasson.com/a7riii/how-fast-silent-shutter/

He has also measured the sensor readout (silent shutter, stills) for the Z7

https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/how-fast-is-the-z7-silent-shutter/

In fact his blog is an absolute mine of information on geeky topics related to the Z7.

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3 hours ago, deezid said:

In their conclusion, Slashcam writes:

The best picture quality is obtained by 4K-Filmer with the Z7 with external 4K-DX recording, which, however, is accompanied by a crop factor of 1.69. This is now hardly less than the much criticized 4K crop factor the Canon EOS R, which is at 1.75.

In full succeed the better shots at full sensor area in FX mode. Here also up to 60fps are possible. Who wants to use up to 120fps in full, comes to the DX modes in the Z7 not around. Even the lower Rolling shutter speaks for the DX modes.

The Color Science of the new Nikon Z7 may be tamed or de-digitized by some. Basically, the camera is still very pleasant, similar-looking color impressions possible.

In low light already sets the Z7 impressive behavior to the day, which is likely to be topped by the upcoming Z6. And that brings us to a fundamental "problem":

Although Nikon does so much right on the Z7, the high-resolution sensor makes little sense for users who are primarily filmmakers. The Z6 is likely to be the really exciting model for filmmakers in this regard, as this first quality impression of the Z7 already impressively suggests.

[italics my own]

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