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Lenses for the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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I think most camera manufacturers are going to go with software correction for many of THEIR lenses as it means they can concentrate on other things and/or save money in building them.      Canon does I think to some extent as does Sony (and I wouldn't be surprised if both Canon and Nikon do more so with FF mirrorless).       It wont be an issue for their own cameras but for those adapting it might well be.

 

Just a guess but it seems to me that Sony cameras correct some Canon lenses as if they are A mount (also seems to depend on adapter used) as in at least some cases the EXIF I get is that of A mount lenses.

I think it also means that some older lenses from Canon for example that don't have profiles might be better adapted including to the Blackmagic camera.

For example, my old 20-35 2.8 L seems to have less distortion than most Canon wide angles UNCORRECTED but compared to newer lenses with profiles in camera, may come out a bit worse on the Canon cameras, but what about adapted to others?

If I am right, it really is going to be a mine field and every combination of lens/camera/adapter will differ.

It also means that third party companies like Sigma ETC might be better choices in future for adapting across systems.

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On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:04 AM, Grimor said:

When camera finally comes out, we'll see zillions of camera test on Youtube because people already have the lenses.

Just wait few more and see what  you like the most.

You mean we are about to see a frenzy of cat videos?

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On 6/14/2018 at 10:17 AM, kye said:

It depends on your frame of reference.  For me, 'can do everything' includes wild-life one second and a wide panorama the next without time to change lenses, and coming from a world that thinks that a 700D is a 'big camera' a 5D or C100 are so absurdly large that people openly stare with mouths agape.  Also, I'd like image quality approaching 4K compressed or 1080 RAW.

We're in a difficult time - cameras have enough capability and  accessibility to give us grand ideas, media consumption is high enough quality that we know nice images when we see them, but the tech isn't quite there yet.

I know BM is concentrating on the slow/planned styles of film-making, but they're so insanely good at delivering awesomeness I'm just jealous I'm not in their target camera market!!

Isn't the new BMPCC4K as big as a 5D, if not wider? The old Pocket, with a bit of battery rigging, isn't so bad if camera size and raw is what you need (without the 4k). It's also the only thing I can think of that is smaller than a 700d. What do you currently use?

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16 hours ago, SR said:

Isn't the new BMPCC4K as big as a 5D, if not wider? The old Pocket, with a bit of battery rigging, isn't so bad if camera size and raw is what you need (without the 4k). It's also the only thing I can think of that is smaller than a 700d. What do you currently use?

Currently I have two setups - 700D running ML and Sigma 18-35 f1.8, and XC10.  The 700D takes lovely stills and nice shallow DOF but lacks image stabilisation and reliability, and the XC10 has great IQ, reliability, better low light, etc but the AF isn't great and it lacks shallow DOF.  The XC10 is almost perfect but just doesn't give the look I've now come to realise that I want.

My list of criteria is:

  • Shallow DOF (equivalent to FF at F4)
  • Looks nice at ISO 6400+
  • Walk-around lens available (at least 24-70)
  • Reliable auto-focus with face detection
  • Codec giving approaching-RAW 1080 or 4K
  • Stabilisation good enough for hand-held work
  • Overheating not an issue
  • Low RS
  • Reliable

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Currently the Canon APS-C cameras are probably eliminated due to no IS in wider aperture lenses, the Pocket 2 lacks AF-C, the GH5 can't focus well enough, the XH-1 battery life and AF issues, the C100 and Canon FF I believe only have AF points in the middle of the sensor.  The remaining candidates are the A7III, but I'm waiting until the magical Canon FF camera and all the other 'just in time for xmas' cameras are revealed before moving forwards.

The Pocket 4K looks like it will be a spectacular camera and I really wanted to want it, but it's just not aimed at me.  If you're shooting in a situation where you can pause long enough to change lenses or you can tailor your shots to one focal length (eg, like street photographers often do with a single prime) then it would be just wonderful, but I want cameras to fit in to my style of shooting not the other way around.  I shoot my home videos sometimes without even stopping walking etc, so things are often in motion because that's how life is and that's what I'm capturing.

TBH it would be great if I could end up with a camera where lots of people use it and there's lots of support in terms of products and online discussions etc.

I do have half-a-mind to pick up a second-hand Pocket 1 (are we calling it that now?) and get a single prime, like maybe a 35mm equivalent, and kind of have it as an 'art' setup to compliment whatever I get for my 'documenting' setup, but without IS, good low-light, zoom, or AF, it would only ever be an experimental camera.

The Pocket 2 will suffer from the same compromise that the GH5 and all other cropped sensor cameras suffer from, you can get zooms and you can get shallow DOF but not both.

The fastest zooms you get are F2.8 but that isn't as shallow as f2.8 on FF, so you're forced to choose between fast and flexible.

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@kye although I agree that the Pocket ii isn’t really for you, you could use your Sigma 18-35mm with a Metabones Speedbooster and gain a full stop of exposure or you could buy a Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 or Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 and have IS and a stop giving you an f/2 which would give you the f/4 FF equivalent you’re looking for.

With that being said, I still think you’d be better off with a C100 ii or some kind of Canon. I know you’re worried about drawing attention to yourself but plenty of families get away using bigger cameras and just look like tourists... because they are. Just by having a family in front of your lens will give you a lot of leeway.

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1 hour ago, kye said:

My list of criteria is:

  • Shallow DOF (equivalent to FF at F4)
  • Looks nice at ISO 6400+
  • Walk-around lens available (at least 24-70)
  • Reliable auto-focus with face detection
  • Codec giving approaching-RAW 1080 or 4K
  • Stabilisation good enough for hand-held work
  • Overheating not an issue
  • Low RS
  • Reliable

lol

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5 hours ago, kye said:

Currently I have two setups - 700D running ML and Sigma 18-35 f1.8, and XC10.  The 700D takes lovely stills and nice shallow DOF but lacks image stabilisation and reliability, and the XC10 has great IQ, reliability, better low light, etc but the AF isn't great and it lacks shallow DOF.  The XC10 is almost perfect but just doesn't give the look I've now come to realise that I want.

My list of criteria is:

  • Shallow DOF (equivalent to FF at F4)
  • Looks nice at ISO 6400+
  • Walk-around lens available (at least 24-70)
  • Reliable auto-focus with face detection
  • Codec giving approaching-RAW 1080 or 4K
  • Stabilisation good enough for hand-held work
  • Overheating not an issue
  • Low RS
  • Reliable

You missed out adding the options of 8K resolution, 16 stops dynamic range and a 5-axis stabilizer for half the price of the current BMPCC4K.

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4 hours ago, mercer said:

@kye although I agree that the Pocket ii isn’t really for you, you could use your Sigma 18-35mm with a Metabones Speedbooster and gain a full stop of exposure or you could buy a Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 or Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 and have IS and a stop giving you an f/2 which would give you the f/4 FF equivalent you’re looking for.

With that being said, I still think you’d be better off with a C100 ii or some kind of Canon. I know you’re worried about drawing attention to yourself but plenty of families get away using bigger cameras and just look like tourists... because they are. Just by having a family in front of your lens will give you a lot of leeway.

Thanks for mentioning those lenses, I hadn't come across them when I went through DPReview and B&H looking for stabilised fast zooms - I'll have to do a bit of research on them :)

@andrgl @SR I know it looks like it's a utopian fantasy, but you'd be surprised.  The XC10 and my iPhone8 each have 7 out of the 9 criteria, a 70D / ML / 18-35 combo would have 7 or 8, an A7III / 24-70 looks like it gets 8 and maybe 9 if the overheating isn't too bad, the GH5 gets 8 but misses AF...  If Canon has a genuine attempt at good video IQ on their FF mirrorless camera then it might hit all of the criteria.

If this list actually looks exhaustive to you then I'd encourage you to write your own list and compare - most people aren't aware of all their criteria.

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The problem you’ve got @kye is that it’s not just the lack of a single camera that covers everything but that all the criteria is actually spread between the different manufacturers.

Sony have got the FF and low light, Fuji have got the lenses, Canon have got the AF, Blackmagic have got the RAW, Panasonic have got the IBIS and Nikon have got....to get a move on.

Unfortunately, due to many factors, it’s unlikely that any of them are going to become the strongest in all categories in the near future and hence unlikely that a single camera to excel in all areas is going to happen either.

Until then it’s just a question of picking the most acceptable compromise today and if you’re changing system, gambling on who is going to get closest over time. 

Sony probably have the most pieces of the puzzle minus the RAW and if Sigma can make some improvement from Sigma on their AF then they bring better and cheaper lens options so you’d say currently it was Sony that ticked most boxes.

An out of focus shot is still going to be out of focus irrespective of whether it’s heavily compressed or RAW so it sounds like that should take precedence for you for what you want to use it for. 

That would point to Sony being the current best least worst option for you but based on the track record of these companies and how they drip feed functionality, if RAW really is what you’re after, you’d have to take a view on what you think would happen sooner :

Blackmagic improving the AF to a good enough level for what you want it for or Sony offering RAW video on any camera outside of their F/FS line?

Based on the philosophy of those two companies?

Mmmm....

I know one thing though, as many of the things you want to shoot are life events and holidays and family growing up etc, don’t waste the opportunity of capturing those moments while waiting for a manufacturer to come up with a camera that has it all because they are dancing to a different beat.

Oh and buy a camcorder  :) 

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On 6/15/2018 at 3:39 AM, noone said:

I think most camera manufacturers are going to go with software correction for many of THEIR lenses as it means they can concentrate on other things and/or save money in building them.      Canon does I think to some extent as does Sony (and I wouldn't be surprised if both Canon and Nikon do more so with FF mirrorless).       It wont be an issue for their own cameras but for those adapting it might well be.

 

 

I've wondered if one of the reasons the Voigtlander lenses look so cinematic is the lack of correction mixed with only minor (and pleasant) distortion. Besides the obvious other traits. 

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13 hours ago, kye said:

My list of criteria is:

  • Shallow DOF (equivalent to FF at F4)
  • Looks nice at ISO 6400+
  • Walk-around lens available (at least 24-70)
  • Reliable auto-focus with face detection
  • Codec giving approaching-RAW 1080 or 4K
  • Stabilisation good enough for hand-held work
  • Overheating not an issue
  • Low RS
  • Reliable

Sounds like you Really do want a Sony A7 mk III. ☺️

12 hours ago, kye said:

The Pocket 2 will suffer from the same compromise that the GH5 and all other cropped sensor cameras suffer from, you can get zooms and you can get shallow DOF but not both.

The fastest zooms you get are F2.8 but that isn't as shallow as f2.8 on FF, so you're forced to choose between fast and flexible.

I don't know why you don't consider a Speedbooster on the 4K BMPCC. It will be my first purchase after getting the camera. Nearly anyone that was serious with the original BMPCC used a Speedbooster. Problem solved unless you want to use m4/3 lenses. And hell since the 4K BMPCC in essence doesn't have continuous AF why bother? I have a couple m4/3 lenses left but in reality they won't work on the camera other than push AF, which I do a lot anyways. But for most stuff I am going old MF Nikon probably. A TON of great used lenses that you can't really give away will be awesome on it.

I am not sure, and I don't think anyone but BM knows how good AF is in this thing. I really don't think it is going to be even close to a GH5 AF. I think it is more of a MF camera, with touch screen focus and that is about it. I am sure you can probably program one of the 3 buttons on top to do push AF. I have never seen, other than pushing on the screen, any real demo of the AF on it. I would love to be proved "uninformed"

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17 hours ago, kye said:

The Pocket 2 will suffer from the same compromise that the GH5 and all other cropped sensor cameras suffer from, you can get zooms and you can get shallow DOF but not both.

The fastest zooms you get are F2.8 but that isn't as shallow as f2.8 on FF, so you're forced to choose between fast and flexible.

If you’re trying to emulate f2.8 Full frame then the Sigma ART f1.8 give you exactly that on an APS-C or via a smart speedbooster (to retain the AF) on an M43 camera though.

The size and weight penalty of using lenses like that with a speedbooster comes with the territory if you want that sort of spec as full frame f2.8 zoom lenses carry the same penalty.

The compromise between fast and flexible is exactly the same on full frame cameras because their zooms max out at f2.8 as well so anything faster will need a prime there too and, again, the speedboosted lenses can match that speed.

Its only when you get to the daft stuff like 400mm f2.8 that bozos like me have to buy that you can’t get equivalence.

But carrying one of those around isn’t as stealthy as you’d like to be ;) 

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15 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

The problem you’ve got @kye is that it’s not just the lack of a single camera that covers everything but that all the criteria is actually spread between the different manufacturers.

Absolutely!

I think I've also got a similar split between different uses - cameras for narrative vs run-and-gun vs hybrid all have different combinations of strengths and weaknesses but I'm looking for a non-standard combination :)

15 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Sony probably have the most pieces of the puzzle minus the RAW and if Sigma can make some improvement from Sigma on their AF then they bring better and cheaper lens options so you’d say currently it was Sony that ticked most boxes.

I probably mis-spoke about RAW - I said "approaching RAW" but what I meant was nice 1080p - ie more than Canon currently delivers.  Something like the C100 1080 would be fine :)

15 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I know one thing though, as many of the things you want to shoot are life events and holidays and family growing up etc, don’t waste the opportunity of capturing those moments while waiting for a manufacturer to come up with a camera that has it all because they are dancing to a different beat.

Oh and buy a camcorder  :) 

I'm not waiting.  I have lots of cameras presently and they get used :)

My most recent purchase was a 12Tb HDD because I had run out of space on my Backup drive from all the footage I record :)

10 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Sounds like you Really do want a Sony A7 mk III.

It's definitely looking like that's the best option.

10 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't know why you don't consider a Speedbooster on the 4K BMPCC. It will be my first purchase after getting the camera. Nearly anyone that was serious with the original BMPCC used a Speedbooster. Problem solved unless you want to use m4/3 lenses. And hell since the 4K BMPCC in essence doesn't have continuous AF why bother? I have a couple m4/3 lenses left but in reality they won't work on the camera other than push AF, which I do a lot anyways. But for most stuff I am going old MF Nikon probably. A TON of great used lenses that you can't really give away will be awesome on it.

I am not sure, and I don't think anyone but BM knows how good AF is in this thing. I really don't think it is going to be even close to a GH5 AF. I think it is more of a MF camera, with touch screen focus and that is about it. I am sure you can probably program one of the 3 buttons on top to do push AF. I have never seen, other than pushing on the screen, any real demo of the AF on it. I would love to be proved "uninformed"

I didn't think about speed boosters - good point.   I also got the impression it was more of a MF camera than anything and speed boosters and the vagaries of camera-to-lens communication.

When I think of it I imagine people just coming out of film school who have a basic lighting kit, a basic audio setup, and who would have been shooting with a T2i or a 5D back in the day but now can get a Pocket 2 and stop dreaming about owning a Red and just make spectacular films.  Yes, there will be people who put a single prime on it and hand-hold it throughout their holiday and create magic, but I don't think it's going to be replacing the A6500 in that many setups.

I have half-a-mind to teach myself to manually focus and then re-evaluate things by taking Autofocus off my list of requirements, but it adds another thing that can go wrong to the list.

5 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

If you’re trying to emulate f2.8 Full frame then the Sigma ART f1.8 give you exactly that on an APS-C or via a smart speedbooster (to retain the AF) on an M43 camera though.

The size and weight penalty of using lenses like that with a speedbooster comes with the territory if you want that sort of spec as full frame f2.8 zoom lenses carry the same penalty.

The compromise between fast and flexible is exactly the same on full frame cameras because their zooms max out at f2.8 as well so anything faster will need a prime there too and, again, the speedboosted lenses can match that speed.

Its only when you get to the daft stuff like 400mm f2.8 that bozos like me have to buy that you can’t get equivalence.

But carrying one of those around isn’t as stealthy as you’d like to be ;) 

LOL about 400mm - you're right about that not being stealthy!!

Of course, you're talking to someone who yesterday took my 700D with EF-S 55-250 lens to my kids football game, and using crop mode on ML was shooting at 1200mm equivalent, hand-held!  Of course, that lens is almost a whole universe away from a white lens a foot and a half long hanging off the end of a camera!!

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There is the Sigma 24-35 f2 in FF but otherwise, yeah.

Sony FF users can also use any lens including (for example a 50 f0.95 and I have tried a 85 1.2) as a 2x zoom for video too though (that would be hard to shoot except in a very controlled environment I would think).

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22 hours ago, kye said:

@andrgl @SR I know it looks like it's a utopian fantasy, but you'd be surprised.  The XC10 and my iPhone8 each have 7 out of the 9 criteria, a 70D / ML / 18-35 combo would have 7 or 8, an A7III / 24-70 looks like it gets 8 and maybe 9 if the overheating isn't too bad, the GH5 gets 8 but misses AF...  If Canon has a genuine attempt at good video IQ on their FF mirrorless camera then it might hit all of the criteria.

If this list actually looks exhaustive to you then I'd encourage you to write your own list and compare - most people aren't aware of all their criteria.

I can understand that to a degree. I did for a long time want a DSLR that managed both great photos and videos (a small camera, in other words, like what you are looking for, and which is why I started following EOSHD years ago). Eventually Sony did release something to that tune, but the color science gave me nightmares. Although it's workable, I found it disagreeable to my workflow. And if you shoot regularly, starting off with a raw photo that looks completely off with its color can be tiresome. So I went back to the NX1: it's been brilliant. Even did a few videos with it.

For more important projects, I just rent the Ursa mini, which does a spectacular job. In fact, the Ursa mini is hardly what I had imagined my "ideal" camera to be. In my head, that would have been a small run-and-gun, like the Sony A7R-series with 10bit log and Ursa mini color science (which we're probably 10 years away from). But for those delicious Ursa files, I was happy to give up my run-and-gun ideals. And if the rare project (in my case) demands a run-and-gun, I'd probably make up for it with a seasoned crew, or a gimbal + Canon/Sony, depending on the budget. The options are so many nowadays that even for those on a tight budget, we can still do great work pre-BMPCC4K/perfect-future-camera -- which I'm sure you know already.

Perhaps you could let us know what kinds of projects you do, and how many times a month you shoot. Those would give us better insight.

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F2.8 zoom lenses with speedbooster become F2 lenses which are F4 equivalence on M43. This is plenty of subject background separation plus enough DOF for focus accuracy. A speedbooster on M43 is not far off S35 or the classic cinema 35mm frame size so if you can't get 'cinematic' footage with this you should be looking elsewhere for it. If peoples idea of cinematic derives from film shot on 60/70mm film then yes the M43 system may not be a good starting point....

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