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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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1 hour ago, JordanWright said:

Where do Blackmagic say this about DR? I was under the impression that both the original Pocket and the Pocket 4k were advertised as 13 stops

You are right - my bad! I had wrong numbers in my head m

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I would much rather have the option to add a OLPF filter to a camera than have no choice in the matter. Under a lot of circumstances moire is not a problem at all on a lot of shoots. Why loose the sharpness and perceived resolution gain if you don't have too..

I would be nice if they did what Sigma did, does with their cameras with a removable one.

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18 hours ago, cantsin said:

 

When the Pocket was reviewed a few years ago on Provideo Coalition, I believe it measured a full 1920x1080, or very close to it, with charts supplied to back up the claim -- with the usual caveat that you will see moire at the far end.   Do you have better information?

As for the color in your sample -- sorry, but to my eyes, it looks like barely graded log footage.  And, given the lighting and shooting style, it's Impossible to assess much of anything, unless the object is to achieve just that -- an unlit log look.    But, in that case, any number of cameras can produce much the same.

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9 hours ago, cantsin said:

Since BM specifies the Pocket 4K with one stop less DR than the old Pocket

I am curious, as to where you found this information from. Source? 

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1 hour ago, sanveer said:

I am curious, as to where you found this information from. Source? 

As I wrote further above, my bad - I'd wrongly remembered the original Pocket to have been specified with 14 stops. So, in reality, BM claims that the Pocket 4K will have the same dynamic range as its predecessor.

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On 6/20/2018 at 7:04 PM, IronFilm said:

It isn't hard to see how the E2 could be viewed as a premium camera relative to the BMPCC4K for some people's needs and worth the premium 

I can see how that argument would work... in a parallel universe where we hadn't already seen the prerelease footage.

The footage is bad.  We all agree on that.  And the company has a terrible track record.  No way I touch that camera whether the BMPCC 4K exists or not.

No raw.  No prores.  No USB C recording.  No xlr.  No 5 inch screen.  No Davinci Resolve.

One of two things will happen.  Either the footage will get dramatically better or the price will drop to sub $1,000.  Even if the footage was pretty decent I just don't see myself swapping all the other things Blackmagic is giving you just to get 120 fps in a compressed codec.  I get that some people are crazy about high frame rates but I am not going to dump a ton of every day work horse features for one niche thing I would use sparingly.

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I don't see how they can sell it for 500 dollars with the BM coming out. And at some time you will be able to buy the 4K BMPCC without the Resolve Dongle. You know that is going to happen, and that it will really be just 995 bucks. The E2 is dead in the water unless you Need a little form factor. And it's not like the BMPCC is Hugh either. Sure it's bigger but..

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2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

And at some time you will be able to buy the 4K BMPCC without the Resolve Dongle. You know that is going to happen, and that it will really be just 995 bucks.

I'm fairly confident that won't happen. Resolve is included free in the package, it's not a forced addon. It doesn't cost BM a penny to put a license in the box, but they would lose a lot of pennies for every sale they don't include it. I'm sure after a while you can buy the camera on it's own, but only on the second hand market. In fact, you're much more likely to find cheap Resolve licenses from people who have bought two cameras and only need one license. 

Look at it like this. You go to a store to buy 4 apples and you're given these options:

$2 for 4 apples 

or

$3 for 4 apples + two free apples

Those extra apples aren't free.

Similarly if you argue that 'I already have a Resolve license so don't want the free license, can I have a discount instead?' That's also not going to work. Imagine buying a new camera that uses the same batteries as the camera you've already got. You can't ask the store to take the battery out the box and give you a discount - why would this be any different?

 

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3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't see how they can sell it for 500 dollars with the BM coming out. And at some time you will be able to buy the 4K BMPCC without the Resolve Dongle. You know that is going to happen, and that it will really be just 995 bucks. 

Huh ?  

Can't see that happening ever.  They've never done it.  More like they do a price drop sometime WITH resolve to $995.  They did something similar with the pocket about 18 months after they launched if I remember.  In fact I think it dropped even more than that.

JB

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Besides, you need the Studio version of Resolve to edit the 4K DCI files from the Pocket 4k. Unlike with the old Pocket, the free version will not be enough. And Resolve is AFAIK the only editing program that can open the camera's 3:1 and 4:1 compressed RAW files.

(I still predict a rude awakening for many first-time buyers of a BM camera who might have underestimated the practical necessity of a Resolve workflow, the computer hardware you need for editing 4K RAW, and the cost of recording media.)

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Regarding DR, I have a hunch that the pocket 4K will have slightly less than the  older pocket due to the older cam having larger photosites and dual gain architecture.  But sony sensor design is good so we will wait and see.

FFMPEG colors are all kinds of wrong.  I work in VFX and we used them to export prores back to clients as you can't do that in a windows environment, and one of the clients noticed a 1% difference in the red channel of one of our images. 

Since then programs like Assimilate scratch, Nuke, etc. can do it but that is more recent.

 

As far as free updates for life, one of the most notable programs of all time has to be FL Studio.  They have offered free upgrades since the very beginning over 20 years ago.

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3 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Huh ?  

Can't see that happening ever.  They've never done it.  More like they do a price drop sometime WITH resolve to $995.  They did something similar with the pocket about 18 months after they launched if I remember.  In fact I think it dropped even more than that.

JB

Yep, this is what I'll be waiting for - they dropped the Pocket to half price & it was a steal, no contest!

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3 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

Regarding DR, I have a hunch that the pocket 4K will have slightly less than the  older pocket due to the older cam having larger photosites and dual gain architecture.

No need for your "hunches".  The manufacturer already told us it has the exact same DR as the BMPCC.  It is in the product description on the manufacture's site.

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12 hours ago, Damphousse said:

No need for your "hunches".  The manufacturer already told us it has the exact same DR as the BMPCC.  It is in the product description on the manufacture's site.

13 stops is a manufacturer rating.  Some cameras have more DR despite the same numbers because they may round 12.5 to 13, or some cameras more confidently capture that range better than others too.

Kinefinity claims 14 stops on their Terra 4K camera as well as on their Mavo 6K camera.  But does the Terra 4K have remotely the same dynamic range as the Mavo 6K?  No it does not.

Likewise they claimed 16 stops in the "golden 3K" mode on the Terra 6K, but did it really have a noticeable 2 stops more?  No it did not.

"Stops" of dynamic range are just claims that anyone can make and not have to back up with evidence.  Wouldn't it be easier if blackmagic just went and said it has 13 stops so it's about the same as the original pocket?  It could be 1/2 stop less, but just doesn't market well to sell a cinema camera with a DR downgrade.  Notice how RED nowhere in their marketing ever claimed that Helium had less dynamic range than Dragon even though that was definitely true?

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Hunches are fine when declared as so.  The problem is when people state their hunches as fact.. 

If we deleted all the posts that were speculation, opinion, rampant imagination, and fighting over Canon 1080p and colour science, etc there would only be a small amount of content remaining here!!

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1 hour ago, Savannah Miller said:

13 stops is a manufacturer rating.  Some cameras have more DR despite the same numbers because they may round 12.5 to 13, or some cameras more confidently capture that range better than others too.

Kinefinity claims 14 stops on their Terra 4K camera as well as on their Mavo 6K camera.  But does the Terra 4K have remotely the same dynamic range as the Mavo 6K?  No it does not.

Likewise they claimed 16 stops in the "golden 3K" mode on the Terra 6K, but did it really have a noticeable 2 stops more?  No it did not.

"Stops" of dynamic range are just claims that anyone can make and not have to back up with evidence.  Wouldn't it be easier if blackmagic just went and said it has 13 stops so it's about the same as the original pocket?  It could be 1/2 stop less, but just doesn't market well to sell a cinema camera with a DR downgrade.  Notice how RED nowhere in their marketing ever claimed that Helium had less dynamic range than Dragon even though that was definitely true?

It is not too hard to get more stops of DR when you go higher like 6K, 8K in Raw. Raw easily adds 1 1/2 stops or a bit more. That stuff is usually 14 to 16 bit on larger sensors. Heck the Red 8K Weapon is claiming 20 stops. That is what the human eye is suppose to be I think. Since I know no one that has a 8K monitor I guess I will have to take their word for it. 😏

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