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Andrew Reid

The wraps are off! Panasonic EVA1 compact cinema camera announced with Super 35 5.7K sensor and Dual Native ISO

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Yeah I also see the usefulness of internal raw as fairly limited. 

A very good high bitrate 10bit implementation should be enough for most productions. RAW is more useful for shorts/feature/video clips that usually have a set + a larger production and in which you can afford an external recorder. Shooting docs/events/corporate in RAW is just masochism most of the time. 

Thats why the direction that Panasonic took with EVA1 codec wise, makes more sense that what Canon did with the C200. 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

If the C200 was Canon’s only cinema camera, then I may agree with you, but since they have multiple cameras for almost every budget level, then I have to disagree.

The genius of the C200 is that it is at a good price point for two totally different budgets. If you have a large budget and want to work with Raw or if you have a low budget but have the time to invest in Raw.

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

If the C200 was Canon’s only cinema camera, then I may agree with you, but since they have multiple cameras for almost every budget level, then I have to disagree.


It is exactly BECAUSE they have multiple cameras that they cripple their C200

Have to protect the sales of the C300mk2!

 

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3 hours ago, mercer said:

The genius of the C200 is that it is at a good price point for two totally different budgets. If you have a large budget and want to work with Raw or if you have a low budget but have the time to invest in Raw.

 

I would be a uniquely unusually odd owner op who only does raw or 8bit 420 shoots and never ever had any demand for anything else?!

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I would rather have a Canon C200 with the EVA codecs, than either the current C200, or the EVA! Now, I dislike both! Where is this Canon C100mkIII?! They still do not offer a 4K camera for less than 5000euros/$/quids/money, also, the camera between the GH5 and the EVA, is the AG-DVX200?!?! wtf!! I believe ALL the manufacturers, are missing the most important aspect, and target group, of the market, the around 5000money segment, something from 4500 to 5500.

In Europe C200 is around 9000-8300euros, and EVA around 8700 euros (yep, more expensive than Canon in almost all the places), then you go to a C300 or C100mkII, and to a camcorder, or GH5 for Panasonic. Am I the only one seeing a huge gap in between pro segments? I would believe that a slightly cheaper capable camera could sell to the thousands, if you consider the markets of South America and Asia, or other less profitable markets in the world (South Europe, Eastern Europe) that 9.000euros for a camera is a certain NO, in buying power and work profits, and these people will need 4K at one point, because their 4K TV sets are cheap, why not their cameras? (then, of course these are the reasons that Canon C100 sold so many cameras, and GH5 sells now). Anyways, I belong to that 89% of the world that 8500euros (10.100US$/12.900CA$/13.300AU$/14.600NZ$, mind you) for a camera is a certain NO!

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8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I would rather have a Canon C200 with the EVA codecs, than either the current C200, or the EVA! 

Why? That's basically what the EVA1 is...?

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

They still do not offer a 4K camera for less than 5000euros/$/quids/money [...]I believe ALL the manufacturers, are missing the most important aspect, and target group, of the market, the around 5000money segment, something from 4500 to 5500.

Yes they do - but the market now consists of SLR/SLMs bodies rather than the bigger bodied brethren.  Also the FS5 is around that price range, and I think is the perfect camera to sit at that price. I think the EVA1 is a little too expensive, but the FS5 is at a good price point IMO.

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I would believe that a slightly cheaper capable camera could sell to the thousands, if you consider the markets of South America and Asia, or other less profitable markets in the world

Believe me, if this was the case, the wheels would already be in motion. See Apple re iPhone 5c, for example. These are very different markets, and projecting a European mindset of cheap cameras onto it doesn't really make all that much sense. Don't forget, Sony and Panasonic are headquartered in the middle of Asia...

 

Here's the thing: A builder needs drills and saws and hammers. A painter needs a canvas and paint brushes and paints and paint tools. A cameraman (usually) needs a camera. If it's a hobby for you, you use what you can afford. The expensive cameras on the market are not aimed at hobbyists for the exact reason that hobbyists cannot afford $10k for a camera body.

 

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@jax_rox EVA ain't C200 in no way, it doesn't even have a viewfinder (the most obvious difference), no touch Dual Pixel AF (the most important difference) and I highly doubt the EVA ergonomics will be as good as any C camera. The EVA reminds me an older video camcorder than a "cinema" camera. Also, C200 records internal RAW, which in a way, is a huge difference already. Actually C200 is a couple of codecs (or 1) away for being the best camera for most of humanity, but those to codecs are pushing Canon users to C300mkII, which is quite more expensive than a C200, and maybe EVA, but that has to be seen.

I take (actually, I really do) a C100mkII every time, instead of a FS5, and then usually we work with a C300mkII and PL lenses. The first C200s are already here, and a couple of friends have already bought them, so I guess I will be using one next year for sure. But my point is valid, from C200 you go to C100mkII, where is the middle ground? and from EVA, you go to the GH5 (which is a m43 camera by the way, not even a S35 one, which is our case study), if you do not see a big dark hole eating mass/time and space, then I rest my case.

Sony and Panasonic are Japanese, if you think that Japanese mindset is similar to middle eastern, Indian or from the Philippines, then you have to re-read a few history books again. I didn't get your mobile phone's analogy, as I do not know about iPhones, but every main brand produces special Android phones for those markets (even just for India, Samsung has a whole division, Xiaomi as well), car manufacturers produce specialized cars for South America, Asia, and other developing areas, and just to put some things into context, the so called "developing" world, consists of the 3/4 of the whole population. China and India are increasing their middle class, so they can consume the products they are producing, in a way, a French motor company is more in trouble than a Chinese one, because you can sell so many cars to Europeans, but China is huge, and they just have started to consume. Imagine this analogy to photography, or video. Xiaomi already produces a m43 camera, it ain't good, but it is very cheap (with 2 lenses), next one will be better, for sure.

There is a good cheap camera though, the JVC LS300, and it is a true S35 camera, and a m43 one(!) this is another camera I have used quite a lot lately, but no AF, terrible ergonomics, even worst high speed shooting, terrible viewfinder (at least it has one!) and monitor. The image is not anything special either, but it offers a few codecs, J-log and a few unique features (zoom function for prime lenses).

I know what a builder needs, my neighbor is one, and I have a lot of artists as friends, have a Bachelor of Arts my self, also I know what a cameraman needs, I have seen a few in my time. When you go from a 35euros hammer, straight to 90euros, then there is a whole in the 60 euros market. When your paints for a painting, are either 350euros, or 900ones, then you are missing the 600euros one.

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1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

@jax_rox EVA ain't C200 in no way, it doesn't even have a viewfinder (the most obvious difference), no touch Dual Pixel AF (the most important difference) and I highly doubt the EVA ergonomics will be as good as any C camera.

A rear-mounted EVF is, honestly, useless. You can't judge the ergonomics without trying it out, and I think it's far superior ergonomically to the FS5 and at leas on-par with a C100/200. Dual Pixel AF it doesn't have, sure, but for me personally auto-focus isn't even a factor I really consider when buying a camera like this...

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

The EVA reminds me an older video camcorder than a "cinema" camera.

To suggest that is also to suggest that the FS5 and Blackmagic URSA also remind you of a video camcorder rather than a 'cinema' camera. What even is a 'cinema' camera at this price point...? To me, a cinema camera is an Alexa or maybe an F55 (F65 without the ridiculous recorder back). The C100, C200, C300, C500 & C700 do not resemble that in any way. If you make the suggestion that a C200 and a RED Raven and an FS7 and a Blackmagic URSA mini and an Alexa are all 'cinema' cameras, then you can't also say the EVA1 isn't - every single camera I mentioned has entirely different ergonomics and sizes and weights and body shapes and designs. Yet the EVA1 isn't a cinema camera because....? Have you even seen one in person...?

 

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

from C200 you go to C100mkII, where is the middle ground? and from EVA, you go to the GH5 (which is a m43 camera by the way, not even a S35 one, which is our case study), if you do not see a big dark hole eating mass/time and space, then I rest my case.

Why would you crowd the market with incremental cameras...? What sense does that make..? How do you further differentiate each price point..? 

Secondly, the GH5 consumer division is entirely separate to the Pro division of the EVA1 and above. The EVA1 is actually currently Panasonic's cheapest 'cinema' camera, whilst the GH5 is Panasonic's most expensive/flagship consumer DSLM. I do think the EVA1 is a touch too expensive. 

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

Sony and Panasonic are Japanese, if you think that Japanese mindset is similar to middle eastern, Indian or from the Philippines, then you have to re-read a few history books again.

Yet you seem to think that your Western European mindset is more similar to middle eastern, Indian or Philippines.... And you also seem to think that your analysis of developing markets is better than companies that throw literally millions of dollars at research.

They're different markets. They're not looking for $6k middle of the range cameras. Not right now anyway. You mention all the manufacturers developing specific models for these markets. And yet major companies aren't developing $6k middle of the range cameras for them. You think it's because they're just dumb? That they just never thought of the developing markets? That no-one's ever said 'hey, you think we should put our products into the Philippines or India?' 

Or do you think that maybe these companies have spent millions on research, and have people on the ground in the markets and they tend to see what actually works and what doesnt..?

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

When you go from a 35euros hammer, straight to 90euros, then there is a whole in the 60 euros market. When your paints for a painting, are either 350euros, or 900ones, then you are missing the 600euros one.

No. That's not how markets and business works.

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4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@jax_rox EVA ain't C200 in no way, it doesn't even have a viewfinder (the most obvious difference),

Meh. I think Panasonic simply decided it was more sensible to let people choose their own viewfinder, rather than ship one which might not work for everyone (but everyone would need to pay for, via a higher price). 

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Has any one here used the Panasonic EVA1 with a pro soundie on set running TC, camera hop, & genlock as well? 

Just wondering if it went smoothly, or if there are any "gotchas" I should know about.

As later this month I'm doing a week long shoot with an EVA1. 

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This probably doesn’t belong here, but the way Curtis Judd and Jacob Fenn approach the Canon C200 from a workflow perspective rather than specs alone I found quite interesting.

 

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10 hours ago, jax_rox said:
11 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@jax_rox EVA ain't C200 in no way, it doesn't even have a viewfinder (the most obvious difference), no touch Dual Pixel AF (the most important difference) and I highly doubt the EVA ergonomics will be as good as any C camera.

A rear-mounted EVF is, honestly, useless. You can't judge the ergonomics without trying it out, and I think it's far superior ergonomically to the FS5 and at leas on-par with a C100/200. Dual Pixel AF it doesn't have, sure, but for me personally auto-focus isn't even a factor I really consider when buying a camera like this...

As someone who uses C100/300 and FS5 a lot I can confirm this. Ergonomics do feel great, however a nipple over a scrolling wheel on the sidehandle would make life a lot easier. Still, far better than the FS5 and pretty similar to the C series.

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I'm totally with Kisaha. I'd prefer a 5000€ Canon C100 mk3 with 4k 50p with reasonable fast turnaround codecs Dual Pixel AF, good low light, maybe even slightly smaller than the C100mk2 and if possible some sort of IBIS. Pure run'n'gun all rounder. Like my C100mk1. A solid sensible camera. If it needs better codecs then you have to use a recorder. Ok, fine.

Most people I know would buy that camera.

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I haven't used any of those (C200 and EVA), so I will take my words with a handful of salt! To be honest I do not use viewfinders at all, so the exclusion on the EVA is not a big deal for me, for the money they should have put one though, just in case. Ergonomically, the sound buttons on the EVA are the fewer I have ever seen on a camera, you have to go to menu for most of the sound related options.

My points were: 1) the 7.500$ cameras, cost 10.000$ in Europe 2) there is a huge gap, or no option between the 2 aforementioned cameras and their lower tier siblings (or the lack of them)3) the 5000$ market is a viable one, the 2 most prominent cameras of that price bracket, C100 in all their versions and FS5 have sold a lot, they are just a bit old fashioned at the moment (for different reasons each), I would rather wait (and that I do) one more year for their next versions 4) C200 is missing some middle codec for the price/EVA is missing some -modern- futures (such as the touch screen dual pixel AF), for the price.

@jax_rox we obviously have different views about the markets (and the world) and how they(it) work(s), that is just fine and I respect your civilized approach, we just do not agree 100%, that is perfectly fine. A lot of big companies have gone bankrupt in my timeline, for exactly the reasons I mentioned, not reading the market right and keeping their nose up in the clouds. I was pulling focus on a documentary recently -ironically, for the connection of European and Chinese philosophy- and we had C300mkII and Arri 18-80 or Zeiss primes for landmarks, 80% (at least) of the focus pulling could have been done easier and faster with touch focus Dual Pixel. Also, I put "cine cameras" on quotes, because, what does that even means, but Canon C line, is their Cine line.

I will come back after using these cameras, a little bit unfair judging from the specs and my imaginary expectations. I know there are a dozen of C200 in our market currently, not one EVA, as it is just recently available. Very good releases for sure, I truly respect these 2 brands so I am eagerly awaiting their next moves.

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On 11/16/2017 at 5:45 AM, jax_rox said:

Why? That's basically what the EVA1 is...?

Yes they do - but the market now consists of SLR/SLMs bodies rather than the bigger bodied brethren.  Also the FS5 is around that price range, and I think is the perfect camera to sit at that price. I think the EVA1 is a little too expensive, but the FS5 is at a good price point IMO.

Believe me, if this was the case, the wheels would already be in motion. See Apple re iPhone 5c, for example. These are very different markets, and projecting a European mindset of cheap cameras onto it doesn't really make all that much sense. Don't forget, Sony and Panasonic are headquartered in the middle of Asia...

 

Here's the thing: A builder needs drills and saws and hammers. A painter needs a canvas and paint brushes and paints and paint tools. A cameraman (usually) needs a camera. If it's a hobby for you, you use what you can afford. The expensive cameras on the market are not aimed at hobbyists for the exact reason that hobbyists cannot afford $10k for a camera body.

 

 
 
 

Isnt too old anaolgy to sell camera for this generation. 

[Here's the thing: A builder needs drills and saws and hammers. A painter needs a canvas and paint brushes and paints and paint tools. A cameraman (usually) needs a camera. If it's a hobby for you, you use what you can afford. The expensive cameras on the market are not aimed at hobbyists for the exact reason that hobbyists cannot afford $10k for a camera body.]

Since internet and blogs like this made easy to understand who ripping your money more esily than other. An ameture becomes a pro in a day[may be somebody shuld write thread about pro]. 

To me Eva1 is a looser. lets see what they have next. 

I am sure magiclanthern will enable middle codec everybody disappointed, very soon.

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1 hour ago, ssrdd said:

To me Eva1 is a looser. lets see what they have next. 

I am sure magiclanthern will enable middle codec everybody disappointed, very soon.

 

I am sure you are sure of many things. You cited newsshooter completly in the falsest possible manner. I am sure that makes your recent comments even less convincing. :)

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11 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

 

 

I am sure you are sure of many things. You cited newsshooter completly in the falsest possible manner. I am sure that makes your recent comments even less convincing. :)

 
 

 Stupid, while you argue about a pice of equipment i use them to do something. I give a fuck about panasonic or canon. To me they have 70% margin over their withholding/deciding when to realese technologies, while we argue about their peanuts. Can you imagine what kind of paramount technology used for below video, can you also guess budget would be?

I will soon post a video done entirley on Varicam LT and 35. 

 

If i need high quality[with budget], only choice is Alexa. rest donnow what they are doing, except Red.

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@ssrdd cool down, buddy. It certainly sounds like you have a grudge against Panasonic to me. Your comments about firing Panasonic employees, snidely asking when GH5 firmware v3 is coming out and insisting that Alexa is the only way to go for quality make you sound childish and naive, not professional at all. And to claim Panasonic is withholding 70% of their tech (or whatever - impossible to understand your baseless and unverifiable bs) is utter nonsense. Cut it out now.

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I think this thread will get really exiting, once some forum members got their hands on the camera. Looking forward to see some footage then. I imagine @Zak Forsman might get his hands on an EVA some time soon. :) That will be an exiting opinion from a director and writer and producer of independent cinema films.

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