Thoughts on Nikon Z9/Z8 vs. Canon R3/R5(c)?

[Django]

6 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Which tests?  Any objective test that I've been able to find shows the R5C having marginally better DR to the R5 (as you said, possibly due to better cooling or different processing), but still much lower DR than the C70 at SNR 0.5 or 1.  Having just used the C70 and R5 together side-by-side on a shoot last weekend (both using raw lt), I'd say the C70 images were overall cleaner and have a lot more detail in the shadows (even aside from having less noise) - I was glad, I was a bit worried that I'd end up feeling silly having traded in a bunch of gear and some cash to get the C70.  😃

Despite using the same sensor Canon did a lot of tweaks on R5C resulting in much better noise performance and DR than R5. It isn't marginal, again the noise pattern is entirely different. Something a chart won't show you. R5C has dual ISO so at ISO3200 its going to be cleaner than C70. At C70's base ISO 800 it will have better DR. Different sensors (DGO vs Dual ISO) different results. There are plenty of comparison tests online, some scientific, some real world. Overall the image is pretty comparable as far as DR imo. I guess if you're pixel peeping or lifting shadows at ISO800 C70 would be better but in the end I don't think you're going the C70 route mainly for that. Battery life, XLR, built-in NDs, ergonomics is what you are paying for. YMMV.

 

[ade towell]

There may well be ways of wringing out a bit more DR with the R5c but I have a friend who has C500ii and R5c and their main complaint with the R5c other than battery life is having to use Clog3 to match both and so never using the C500ii to its full potential. Said he tried RAW but was a lot of hassle and needed lots of NR which slowed rendering down hugely, and still the image on the R5c was not quite there with latitude. I realise this is only one person and anecdotal but for them RAW is not practical. Probably fine if you're working on your own with the one camera, have no time constraints, lots of memory cards and don't have to hand footage over. Kind of put me off though.  

[Ty Harper]

58 minutes ago, ade towell said:

There may well be ways of wringing out a bit more DR with the R5c but I have a friend who has C500ii and R5c and their main complaint with the R5c other than battery life is having to use Clog3 to match both and so never using the C500ii to its full potential. Said he tried RAW but was a lot of hassle and needed lots of NR which slowed rendering down hugely, and still the image on the R5c was not quite there with latitude. I realise this is only one person and anecdotal but for them RAW is not practical. Probably fine if you're working on your own with the one camera, have no time constraints, lots of memory cards and don't have to hand footage over. Kind of put me off though.  

I keep hearing about these matching issues, either between R5C and R5 or R5C and C70. I found that a WB and good ole color checker brings these cameras damn near close. So unless people are looking for an exact match, I honestly don't get the concerns. Also 8K RAW might be unwieldly but from what I know, 5.6K RAW on the R5C has only slightly bigger file sizes than its 4K XFAVC 422 files. Yes there's a crop, but that's where the .071x speedbooster can be a helpful. Josh Sattin just did a whole episode about this but it's been a known option for a minute altho prob only for people using EF-L glass: 

Battery issues aside (although I don't know why we would expect a cam with a dslr styled body to give more than the 1+ hours/2+ with a grip that it currently does with its updated power saving mode) I cannot stress how versatile the R5C is in practical use. It is likely the most versatile all-in-one cam Canon has ever released.

Also I think some will look back at our obsession with DR and other metrics in this moment (when pretty much every cam in the prosumer range offers a fantastic image and specs for the price point) and shake their head.

[ade towell]

Hey I'm only reporting my friends frustrations - but I do think it is a bit ridiculous that they don't have Clog2 on the R5c it is supposed to be part of the Cinema line and would make matching to their other cinema cameras a lot easier.

I have no scientific proof but imagine the reason they don't have Clog2 in the R5c is because it doesn't have the DR to utilise it fully. Maybe they could create a Clog2 lite like Panasonic did with GH5 and Vlog 

[Django]

Clog2 inside R5/R5C would be awesome and I'm not sure why its not present there. There is always the RAW workaround. In any case matching Canon footage has never been too problematic I find, again R5C allows you the really dial-in the gamma and the color space for log which I find is pretty key to match footage in cam. WB & color check as Ty Harper mentions and you really shouldn't struggle much. I find it lot harder on Sony cams to be consistent since they keep changing color science every gen. Nikon doesn't even have a cine line and I've really struggled getting decent DR out of N-log. So in the end its almost reluctantly that I'm leaning towards Canon (R5C) as I do think Nikon has the better sensor, mount and specs but having that active cooling is such a relief, shooting / editing and grading is a breeze and the Canon mirrorless/cine ecosystem does allow for expansion so those are the main reasons I'm probably headed back there. In a sense it sucks because I want the latest and greatest which is Z8/Z9 but a couple things are holding me back. If that rumoured firmware with 8K120p burst and open-gate gets confirmed I think that may sway me to switch but even that's a long shot..

[ade towell]

All well considered points it's just that as you say I think the z8/z9 is the latest and greatest regarding image quality and would be excited to use it - the R5c image to me looks very similar to the R6 I was using a while back, nice but kind of Canon vanilla - more of a sideways step.

Anyway they both shoot lovely footage so can't really go wrong either way

[eatstoomuchjam]

The extra DR from the R5C vs the R5 would have to been substantial for it to match with the C70.  As I said, I shot R5 and C70 on set over the weekend and the difference seems substantial to me.  I have no reason to doubt that the R5C (and R5) offer benefits at ISO 3200, but thankfully I'm not lighting for that on set.  In my case, the R5C also gets a 1 stop boost because I've screwed on the EF speed booster.  That'll cover me most of the time.

As far as matching color between them, I have a color chart taped to the back of my slate and ask the PA to flip it around after calling the shot.  I just use the color chart tool in Resolve on the first or second node and other than DR and noise, I'd be hard-pressed to say which camera is which after that.  They both look great.  Unless the R5C changes the colors a lot, I can't imagine that it would be too hard to match to the C70 or C300II.

[kye]

14 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I have a color chart taped to the back of my slate and ask the PA to flip it around after calling the shot.

NICE!

That sounds like a great way to really help out the folks downstream in the image pipeline without much extra effort.  I've never heard of anyone doing that before, and yet it seems so obvious..

[Django]

 

On 12/12/2023 at 4:53 PM, ade towell said:

All well considered points it's just that as you say I think the z8/z9 is the latest and greatest regarding image quality and would be excited to use it - the R5c image to me looks very similar to the R6 I was using a while back, nice but kind of Canon vanilla - more of a sideways step.

Anyway they both shoot lovely footage so can't really go wrong either way

Right well all Canons have pretty much the same look, its really resolution, codec, log curve, rolling shutter & DR that's going to differentiate the files. And while I wouldn't really call the Canon look vanilla, I kinda see what you mean. It's a familiar look.

Z8 footage I've taken really blew my socks off, it does feel next level. the colors, the detail, latitude. IQ is so rich and clean. Its not really a very filmic image, but its high-end.. feels modern. On my 27" 6K monitor the 8K image just pops, its almost like a window into the real-world!

I just watched a thorough review of Z8 with some real-world pro video applications, its non English so pointless to share it here but it did show some pretty big concerns on the overheating. Apparently hot card warning will start to appear within minutes if you shoot in 8K. The guy was doing an all day interview shoot with Z8 & Z9 and it sounded like Z8 simply didn't make it through while zero hiccups with Z9. 

So for me Z9 is really the only option in Nikon land. That's not a bad thing as the vertical grip and added battery life are essential bonuses. I really need to try one ASAP though to see how I gel with the ergos, size/weight.

The more I think of it the lack of IBIS on R5C is kind of a deal breaker. I shoot a lot of handheld so going back to a non IBIS camera feels like a step back to DSLR days and I hate gimbals. I feel that at this budget there shouldn't be any big compromises like that so it looks like I'm leaning back into the Nikon camp with Z9 in sight. Sorry for all the back & forth, I know it sounds like I change my mind every day but good news is I will probably commit very soon as I plan on making the purchase on my upcoming trip to NYC. Getting pumped!

[eatstoomuchjam]

15 hours ago, kye said:

That sounds like a great way to really help out the folks downstream in the image pipeline without much extra effort.  I've never heard of anyone doing that before, and yet it seems so obvious..

I keep assuming that others have done it before, but I don't see it!  On big productions with pro colorists, it's probably a waste of time, but on the sort of small productions that I work on, it feels like a cheat code - especially if the editor/colorist is using Resolve and can nearly instantly get the cameras to have a matching neutral grade to start from.  😄

[Ty Harper]

2 hours ago, Django said:

The more I think of it the lack of IBIS on R5C is kind of a deal breaker. I shoot a lot of handheld so going back to a non IBIS camera feels like a step back to DSLR days and I hate gimbals.

Honestly it was that thinking that had me pick up an R5 as a second cam for its IBIS and I gotta say, I wish I had just bought another R5C. Whatever it is that IBIS does 'better' than Digital IS is lost on me. Nowadays I don't use IBIS or Digital IS and mostly shoot with IS lens on both the R5 and R5C. 

 

[Django]

4 minutes ago, Ty Harper said:

Honestly it was that thinking that had me pick up an R5 as a second cam for its IBIS and I gotta say, I wish I had just bought another R5C. Whatever it is that IBIS does 'better' than Digital IS is lost on me. Nowadays I don't use IBIS or Digital IS and mostly shoot with IS lens on both the R5 and R5C. 

 

90% of my Canon glass are EF primes and none of them have lens IS. 

IBIS is just great for getting rid of micro jitters and what not. Its a solid feature. Digital IS not only crops but can also introduce other issues. And of course IBIS isn't immune to that either with infamous wobble issues on wide angle lenses.

The beautiful thing about Z8/Z9 is that you can actually lock the IBIS. So it can be on or off depending on lens/situation.

Having options is always better than not having them!

That said, within Canon ecosystem, I would definitely choose the R5C over the R5 even though it doesn't have IBIS.

[kye]

3 hours ago, Ty Harper said:

Honestly it was that thinking that had me pick up an R5 as a second cam for its IBIS and I gotta say, I wish I had just bought another R5C. Whatever it is that IBIS does 'better' than Digital IS is lost on me. Nowadays I don't use IBIS or Digital IS and mostly shoot with IS lens on both the R5 and R5C. 

The key difference is that OIS and IBIS will stabilise during the exposure, and digital IS stabilises afterwards.

I did a test some time ago to show what this looks like.  This test is deliberately with a long lens, so is somewhat exaggerated, but should be indicative of the issue.  If you are using very short shutter speeds then it doesn't matter, it's only when using a 45-360 degree shutter angle that these effects would be visible.

Once you know how to recognise it, you see it in YT content every so often, so it does happen in real-life.  The combination of action-camera and low-light is particularly succeptible.

Digital IS is a great tool, and for some people it's sufficient.  Use whatever works for you 🙂 

[MrSMW]

8 hours ago, Django said:

Sorry for all the back & forth, I know it sounds like I change my mind every day but good news is I will probably commit very soon

I hear you brother Django. It’s the same in my camp, - attempting to weigh up the pros & cons so as not to make a decision I will later regret.

Done that too many times previously and determined not to again. If I can help it.

Hopefully getting into a real bricks & mortar camera shop next week for a final handling/ergo check, but the Z9 makes the most sense to me.

Fortunately I am not ‘stuck’ between brands, - it’s simply the more compact Z8 vs the combined additional attributes of the Z9.

Close now…

[mercer]

I saw this video on YouTube a few weeks ago that could be useful for some of you guys to think about...

 

[ghostwind]

@Django & @MrSMW - I can't recommend the Z9 high enough. I've had mine for over a week, and I have zero regrets and am just loving it. 

[gt3rs]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

I saw this video on YouTube a few weeks ago that could be useful for some of you guys to think about...

 

YT nonsense, the Uber old Prius example is basically saying you are at the bottom of the food chain stay there 😉 

[mercer]

6 hours ago, gt3rs said:

YT nonsense, the Uber old Prius example is basically saying you are at the bottom of the food chain stay there 😉 

I think it's just about ROI.

[Eric Calabros]

20 hours ago, kye said:

The key difference is that OIS and IBIS will stabilise during the exposure, and digital IS stabilises afterwards

The problem with IBIS is they're made for still as a priority. Nikon optical VR+IBIS is so good in still shooting that looks like cheating. But video, especially walking situation, is totally different story. 

[gt3rs]

11 hours ago, mercer said:

I think it's just about ROI.

It is so flawed, he could just buy one used R5 + adapter no need to change everything, keep the DSLR as backup and gain a much much more reliable AF, no lens focus tuning, better still quality, silent shutter with EVF and much better video quality. It even uses the same battery. A used R5 here is a round 2800 USD, you keep it for 3 years, resell it for 500 USD it makes a whooping 65 USD a month, if you cannot afford this change job. 

Again YT BS