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1 hour ago, BrorSvensson said:

my guess is 28mm f2

 

i second that. zeiss 28mm f2 on s35 emount camera. would say the modern emount version zeiss due to nice oof area in the more distant shots. i hope to be right so

you guys can call me sherlock:)

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I feel the high-end is definitely overpriced by give and take 300 bucks easily, just because they're aiming it at people with fuller wallets and know they'll sell less quantity and therefor need a bigger markup to get to the same profit margins as the budget lenses that they sell a ton of. Now, I'm not saying higher quality lenses do not justify the higher price, but there must be people like me that will wait a year or longer for those prices to drop those 300 bucks and get to the price that actually better represents its value. The price of freshly launched lenses is at its peak at launch, but personally I hardly ever buy anything at MSRP (manufacturer suggested retail price), pre-order discounts, freebies, discounts in general, combine & save, grey market... usually waiting for that kinda thing. I'm a sucker for a good deal.

Thing is... if we can have lenses like the Panasonic/Leica 15mm f/1.7, Olympus 75mm f/1.8 or Sigma 30mm f/1.4 at (partially way) less than €749,-... for me there then is just about no way I'm going to pay upwards of a 1000 bucks for the Panasonic/Leica 12mm f/1.4, 42.5mm f/1.2 or Olympus 25mm f/1.2 PRO. Like, I'm willing to spend up to 999 for something like that, but a buck more and they better have something else up their sleeve. The only exception to the 1000-rule here has been the 7-14mm f/2.8 PRO so far, which I got right at its release. Just the rectilinear design, having the zoom flexibility with the f/2.8 throughout and a manual focus de-clutch... it's something else! Of course it isn't perfect, it's huge and heavy and there's no filter thread, but I think that's one of the very few occassions the value is there. Think the 12-100mm f/4 PRO is another one to set itself apart, just I'm a f/2.8 or brighter kinda guy. Don't know, but Olympus is killing it on the PRO zooms. I was hoping for the 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO to come down in price a little bit more significantly (kit with teleconverter; would compliment the 7-14 & 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO superbly), but it isn't really budging. What I really like about the Olympus lenses is the look, feel and manual focus de-clutch. I love all metal, all manual lenses like ones by Voigtländer, SLR Magic, Veydra, Kowa and even ZY Optics/Zhong Yi/Mitakon, but of course there's a place and time for electronic/automatic aperture control and autofocus as well and the way Olympus tries to kinda respect both approaches and cater for most people is admirable.

I also think the new Leica zooms are too expensive, especially being f/2.8-4. I don't really see that much added benefit to the Leica 12-60mm compared to the Lumix 12-60mm; I'd basically end up using 'em in the same situations, meaning treating them as non-sensitive lenses for daylight purposes. The Lumix 12-60mm costs close to nothing in a kit, even has weathersealing and built-in stabilization and optically holds up better than its price would suggest. Like... I basically got it for free because I imported my camera from the UK and the kit was the same price as body only here (plus: the shop threw in a Panasonic 64GB card and Panasonic themselves a free battery grip)... the Leica 12-60mm they're asking 999 for! From what I've seen from this lens... it's not actually worth it and I also kind of don't see the Leica mojo back in it. Now, we in the EU are lucky with kits... so the kit with the Leica costs 600 bucks more than the body only. That's saving you a whopping 399! :unamused: Although even then I wonder if the value is there. I also think the new 12-35mm and 35-100mm f/2.8 II lenses are overpriced. They basically admitted that you'd go for the new one for 'freeze proofing, color design, little better iris control for video (smooth not steps)'. Initially the older ones were scheduled for Dual I.S. 2.0 compatibility with firmware upgrade, but the folks at marketing probably scratched their heads saying 'uhhh... no we're not, it's amazing that this is technically feasible, but we've got lenses to sell!', though you still get Dual I.S., just not with the tiny little extra bit of stabilization 2.0 offers... to me though... is the 12-35mm II worth 999 bucks? A couple of hundred more than the older one? A whole lot more even if you'd consider the 2nd hand market? Don't think so. If here as well you could save like 199~399 bucks by getting the kit... that's probably a move I'd make... but at 999, no way. Still waiting for the GH5 to possibly appear in that kit variant around here for that reason. Also, I think the summer upgrades are sorta worth waiting for, I think the camera has a lot of unreached potential.

So yeah. That's my whole take on it. Of course if you have the money: Gillette, the best a man can get! :grin: Just out of principle I don't want to spend more than I think something's worth.

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13 hours ago, Cinegain said:

I feel the high-end is definitely overpriced by give and take 300 bucks easily, just because they're aiming it at people with fuller wallets and know they'll sell less quantity and therefor need a bigger markup to get to the same profit margins as the budget lenses that they sell a ton of. Now, I'm not saying higher quality lenses do not justify the higher price, but there must be people like me that will wait a year or longer for those prices to drop those 300 bucks and get to the price that actually better represents its value. The price of freshly launched lenses is at its peak at launch, but personally I hardly ever buy anything at MSRP (manufacturer suggested retail price), pre-order discounts, freebies, discounts in general, combine & save, grey market... usually waiting for that kinda thing. I'm a sucker for a good deal.

Thing is... if we can have lenses like the Panasonic/Leica 15mm f/1.7, Olympus 75mm f/1.8 or Sigma 30mm f/1.4 at (partially way) less than €749,-... for me there then is just about no way I'm going to pay upwards of a 1000 bucks for the Panasonic/Leica 12mm f/1.4, 42.5mm f/1.2 or Olympus 25mm f/1.2 PRO. Like, I'm willing to spend up to 999 for something like that, but a buck more and they better have something else up their sleeve. The only exception to the 1000-rule here has been the 7-14mm f/2.8 PRO so far, which I got right at its release. Just the rectilinear design, having the zoom flexibility with the f/2.8 throughout and a manual focus de-clutch... it's something else! Of course it isn't perfect, it's huge and heavy and there's no filter thread, but I think that's one of the very few occassions the value is there. Think the 12-100mm f/4 PRO is another one to set itself apart, just I'm a f/2.8 or brighter kinda guy. Don't know, but Olympus is killing it on the PRO zooms. I was hoping for the 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO to come down in price a little bit more significantly (kit with teleconverter; would compliment the 7-14 & 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO superbly), but it isn't really budging. What I really like about the Olympus lenses is the look, feel and manual focus de-clutch. I love all metal, all manual lenses like ones by Voigtländer, SLR Magic, Veydra, Kowa and even ZY Optics/Zhong Yi/Mitakon, but of course there's a place and time for electronic/automatic aperture control and autofocus as well and the way Olympus tries to kinda respect both approaches and cater for most people is admirable.

I also think the new Leica zooms are too expensive, especially being f/2.8-4. I don't really see that much added benefit to the Leica 12-60mm compared to the Lumix 12-60mm; I'd basically end up using 'em in the same situations, meaning treating them as non-sensitive lenses for daylight purposes. The Lumix 12-60mm costs close to nothing in a kit, even has weathersealing and built-in stabilization and optically holds up better than its price would suggest. Like... I basically got it for free because I imported my camera from the UK and the kit was the same price as body only here (plus: the shop threw in a Panasonic 64GB card and Panasonic themselves a free battery grip)... the Leica 12-60mm they're asking 999 for! From what I've seen from this lens... it's not actually worth it and I also kind of don't see the Leica mojo back in it. Now, we in the EU are lucky with kits... so the kit with the Leica costs 600 bucks more than the body only. That's saving you a whopping 399! :unamused: Although even then I wonder if the value is there. I also think the new 12-35mm and 35-100mm f/2.8 II lenses are overpriced. They basically admitted that you'd go for the new one for 'freeze proofing, color design, little better iris control for video (smooth not steps)'. Initially the older ones were scheduled for Dual I.S. 2.0 compatibility with firmware upgrade, but the folks at marketing probably scratched their heads saying 'uhhh... no we're not, it's amazing that this is technically feasible, but we've got lenses to sell!', though you still get Dual I.S., just not with the tiny little extra bit of stabilization 2.0 offers... to me though... is the 12-35mm II worth 999 bucks? A couple of hundred more than the older one? A whole lot more even if you'd consider the 2nd hand market? Don't think so. If here as well you could save like 199~399 bucks by getting the kit... that's probably a move I'd make... but at 999, no way. Still waiting for the GH5 to possibly appear in that kit variant around here for that reason. Also, I think the summer upgrades are sorta worth waiting for, I think the camera has a lot of unreached potential.

So yeah. That's my whole take on it. Of course if you have the money: Gillette, the best a man can get! :grin: Just out of principle I don't want to spend more than I think something's worth.

More very random thoughts: 

We're living in a day when the cost per GB of SSD storage is rapidly decreasing, yet Panasonic will still be able to sell its 128GB SD cards for $800.00 USD a pop. Which is practically the cost of one Voigtlander 17.5mm f/.95 lens here in Vietnam! At least with a Nokton, you know you're handling something that has old world craftsmanship; there's no question of its value, either optically or when it comes to build quality: and everyone owes it to themselves to experience what must be the finest instruments ever built for the m43 system, and possibly some of the best for any system - and in this age of disposable gear, it is something of a miracle that products of this calibre are even being manufactured. 

My own point of reference for high quality AF glass are the half dozen X-mount lenses in my collection. Once again, excellent craftsmanship, all metal construction, aperture rings, weather sealing, and engraved lettering and numbers. But I see here in the forums that some of their lenses are far from perfect. As far as all metal construction goes, I've often come across reviews of camera bodies and lenses made of metal that scratched easily, so I think manufacturers should take heed and choose their materials wisely. Another area manufacturers could improve upon is lens coatings - I see too many lens reviews where flare is a problem, particularly with wide angle primes and zooms.

I also think by now that everyone here is already aware of my aversion to slow, variable aperture universal zooms, and it was disheartening to see just how many who picked up the GH5 decided to go with the a slow zoom rather than picking up a fast prime or two. To me, the difference between shooting with the Leica 12mm  f/1.4 compared to the wide end of the Lumix 12-35mm f/2.8 is like night and day, and I haven't seen any images from the 12-60mm f/2.8-4 that have blown me away like, say, the Olympus 75mm f/1.8 or the Leica 42.5mm f/1.2 have. I'm not a bokeh whore by any means, but I'm not overly fond of the bokeh I've seen from some of these variable aperture zooms either - it's busy and distracting. And I'm not at all convinced that a somewhat shorter 24-70mm full frame equivalent lens is a disadvantage, especially after seeing the breathtaking images of Nepal shot with the Samsung 16-50mm f/2-28 posted in these pages the other day. As a matter of fact, what I am seeing too often by those with longer zooms is a certain timidity, a lack of intimacy, almost a determination not to approach and confront subjects, but to shoot them from afar: and the viewer is relegated to the position of an outsider rather than a participant. I mention in the video above how scarce good videos shot with the premium primes are: on the other hand, there is far too much footage shot with these variable aperture zooms in harsh daylight where the user doesn't even bother with an ND filter, so it's even often difficult to fairly assess the quality of these lenses. I'm also seeing an over-reliance on IBIS or OIS or both, resulting in jittery footage, when at the very least, out of courtesy to the viewer, the poster could have brought along a lightweight yet sturdy monopod for support. 

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2 hours ago, jonpais said:

[..]

Yeah, that's another thing. 'Regular' storage or batteries even. Concerning storage and GH5 capability:

On 23-3-2017 at 1:55 AM, Cinegain said:

The 95MB/s* seems to classify as V30 (so max. sustained 30MB/s, 150Mbit/s should be a little less than 20MB/s, so I imagine that's fine; *read, 90MB/s write). More about speed classes, as you've probably seen, here: https://www.sdcard.org/consumers/choices/speed_class/index.html . Haven't seen any official V60 cards yet (required for GH5 w/ firmware update; 400MBit/s - 50MB/s, so V60), but I have V90 and those would roughly be the ones with spec: R280/W250. The Panasonic and Delkin ones, don't come cheap though. If 90 equals 30 and 250 equals 90, you're looking at about a factor 3x. So, 60x3=180 (also 90+30=120/2=60 and 250+90=340/2=170). That's the exact writespeed of the 'Transcend Ultimate SDXC 64GB, UHS-II U3/Class 10'. With all that said, draw your own conclusions and then check cards availlable and pricing right here.

So here as well I felt like only paying for something I think was worth it and ended up with SanDisk (R280/W250), the brand I've been putting my trust in since the hacked GH2 and BMPCC days, we'll have to see if the math/interpolation and logic pans used here pans out... but savings then are around 30%. I see ADATA has joined the party as well: http://kz.adata.com/en/specification/449# . Kind of interesting. They have these series of cards labelled V90, now the 64 and 128GB get around that R280/W250 mark with an even better R290/W260 rating... however the 256GB version drops down to R275/W155 and still gets the V90-label (I guesstimated max. rated to continuous supported would be around factor 3 and V60 being around 180. Though for 400MBit/s - 50MB/s, W155/3 ~> 52MB/s should still suffice). Maybe there's no real indicators after all... or people will indeed start running into issues with that one. Same for Delkin & Integral V60 that seem to have popped up... around the 280MB/s mark readspeed and W100. Dunno. But the R95/W90 by SanDisk that we all know and love has been given V30 with later versions... I imagine they might do the same to the R280 & R300 ones as well (but V90).

Concerning batteries. Official Panasonic DMW-BLF19E around 69 bucks. Patona Premium battery replacement: 16,90. There's a lot of saving potential everywhere and all the little bits add up considerably... and indeed, there's so much you could do with that, like getting a serious serious lens such as the Voigtländer 17.5mm f/0.95. Really got to check that one out btw. New they're close to that 1000 bucks, locally even as much as 1299. Locally as well I've seen one on the 2nd hand market that's around 650... but it has a bit of wear and tear... should be cosmetically only, mechanically and optically it's claimed to be in fine condition and working order. Still though, I kinda never go and get lenses that are availlable new and modern 2nd hand and even vintage ones I usually get as NOS (new old stock) or mint condition (exceptions are made for super vintage exeptional lenses, like that one Jupiter-11 red 'P' and 'cm' markings that has a few external cuts 'n bruises).

Kinda get what you love about the Fuji lenses. Just... for me... the adaptability is indeed limited... and most of those come without built-in stabilization and Fuji refuses to implement sensor stabilization... so natively... not that eager to switch either (amongst some other things, like not having a touchscreen, or a frontfacing one for that matter... or support for smart adapters).

Agreed about reviews these days. Also whoever shoots promotional stuff for the company themselves. Like Olympus just launched a new camera, right... hypes all the features ( http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/tg-5.html ) 'spectacular Ultra HD 4K video', 'jaw-dropping 4K', 'Get creative with TG-5’s Full HD 120 fps High Speed Video for slow motion' and 'Sensor Shift Image Stabilization', then has this to show for:

I mean... a reviewer not doing your camera justice is one thing... but how am I supposed to get sold on that coming from the company itself?

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13 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

Yeah, that's another thing. 'Regular' storage or batteries even. Concerning storage and GH5 capability:

So here as well I felt like only paying for something I think was worth it and ended up with SanDisk (R280/W250), the brand I've been putting my trust in since the hacked GH2 and BMPCC days, we'll have to see if the math/interpolation and logic pans used here pans out... but savings then are around 30%. I see ADATA has joined the party as well: http://kz.adata.com/en/specification/449# . Kind of interesting. They have these series of cards labelled V90, now the 64 and 128GB get around that R280/W250 mark with an even better R290/W260 rating... however the 256GB version drops down to R275/W155 and still gets the V90-label (I guesstimated max. rated to continuous supported would be around factor 3 and V60 being around 180. Though for 400MBit/s - 50MB/s, W155/3 ~> 52MB/s should still suffice). Maybe there's no real indicators after all... or people will indeed start running into issues with that one. Same for Delkin & Integral V60 that seem to have popped up... around the 280MB/s mark readspeed and W100. Dunno. But the R95/W90 by SanDisk that we all know and love has been given V30 with later versions... I imagine they might do the same to the R280 & R300 ones as well (but V90).

Concerning batteries. Official Panasonic DMW-BLF19E around 69 bucks. Patona Premium battery replacement: 16,90. There's a lot of saving potential everywhere and all the little bits add up considerably... and indeed, there's so much you could do with that, like getting a serious serious lens such as the Voigtländer 17.5mm f/0.95. Really got to check that one out btw. New they're close to that 1000 bucks, locally even as much as 1299. Locally as well I've seen one on the 2nd hand market that's around 650... but it has a bit of wear and tear... should be cosmetically only, mechanically and optically it's claimed to be in fine condition and working order. Still though, I kinda never go and get lenses that are availlable new and modern 2nd hand and even vintage ones I usually get as NOS (new old stock) or mint condition (exceptions are made for super vintage exeptional lenses, like that one Jupiter-11 red 'P' and 'cm' markings that has a few external cuts 'n bruises).

Kinda get what you love about the Fuji lenses. Just... for me... the adaptability is indeed limited... and most of those come without built-in stabilization and Fuji refuses to implement sensor stabilization... so natively... not that eager to switch either (amongst some other things, like not having a touchscreen, or a frontfacing one for that matter... or support for smart adapters).

Agreed about reviews these days. Also whoever shoots promotional stuff for the company themselves. Like Olympus just launched a new camera, right... hypes all the features ( http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/tg-5.html ) 'spectacular Ultra HD 4K video', 'jaw-dropping 4K', 'Get creative with TG-5’s Full HD 120 fps High Speed Video for slow motion' and 'Sensor Shift Image Stabilization', then has this to show for:

I mean... a reviewer not doing your camera justice is one thing... but how am I supposed to get sold on that coming from the company itself?

Yeah, I've got all these X-mount lenses, got the X-T2, but it sits at home most of the time. No articulating touch screen I can vlog with, an abominable app that only allows 720p, no zebras and no IBIS. I've either got to lug around a tripod, or use the Zhiyun Crane. I'll probably only start using it once I get my butt in gear and write a script for a short or something. 

That Olympus video is simply atrocious! So much so, that I thought it could have been made as a sick joke by one of these late night comedy shows.

I can't remember exactly what I paid for my Voigtlander, but it sounds like prices where you're at are crazy high? I just learned that a store I shop at all the time will be getting the GH5 next month, but I'm still not tempted. Maybe of all the features that could sell me on it, it's the lack of an extra crop in 4K. I'd suddenly have a whole new set of focal lengths to play with! I really do prefer purchasing lenses to bodies I suppose. My past 25 or so videos have probably all been about lenses. I think it's a shame that lenses get so little love, at least, that's the way I see it, maybe it's not so. Or even microphones, or storage, or LED lighting - those are the things that get my heart pumping lately anyhow. 

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I think it all comes down to preference. I fell like most camera hardware lens in general is significantly marked up in price because capitalism is still the law of the land : buy low, sell high. Its up to the manufacturer to decide if thats a wise strategy for them and more often than not it isn't especially an era where Nikon and Canon are no longer the two top players. I personally shoot with prime lenses and absolutely refuse to use a tripod/monopod so IBIS is a God send. A tripod slows me down significantly and you miss all the shots you DON'T take so again when it comes to that it comes down to a matter of preference. I've shot on many productions even as the behind the scenes guy and by the time they were done rigging their cameras and tripods im already actively shooting quality images. Im sure many other videographers are starting to notice the same thing so they are actively buying cameras that have IBIS to keep production costs low and turnover times down as well. So knowing this as a business you'll mark up your prices knowing that people HAVE to buy from you anyway due to supply and demand. Just my take...camera hardware will always be expensive because there is an increased demand for images...so its not just Panasonic and micro four thirds...

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Just MFT makes it so easy to adapt from anywhere. Say... what makes you go with Panasonic or Olympus when you can have a set of these puppies for example?

(You'd throw 'em on a ZY Optics/Zhong Yi/Mitakon Lens Turbo II EF - M4/3 (or Metabones of course, but again: value!) with a C/Y - EOS adapter)

2RaZuD4.jpg

Or instead of going for a 1299 42.5mm f/1.2, get one of these for like a third of the price and throw it on your speedboosters (again, L/R - EOS -> boosted EF - M4/3) :

XoKJZxi.jpg

Even the Veydras have been way less than 1000 a pop (12 & 85mm came out later):

fRheDUT.jpg6ccxJnD.jpghxViQvO.jpg

Love primes as well. Primes, boosters, IBIS. The holy combo. :grin: To me/us atleast... maybe we are a select few that delve in a little deeper than going to our electronics store and letting the sales guy advise us on what to get... but to me, there are so much alternatives to pick from that in my eye are so much more bang for the buck... you'd have a hard time selling me that 1299 lens. But they're sticking to it, in fact, it seems the focus is shifting towards the high-end (which kinda makes sense, because smartphones are getting better and better and it's harder to sell people cheap cameras that can't really set themselves apart from smartphones in terms of looks and quality, it's starting to take more to make a difference, so we are seeing more expensive options and even more entry level, still high-end, medium format gets offered now for people to set themselves apart even more) so it must be working.

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I've bought most of my Fuji lenses used but I don't really feel too violated by the prices I've paid for the new ones.

Its a pity Sigma have stayed away from the X mount though as you can see from the MFT stuff they do that they certainly offer a good alternative.

I've only got really basic MFT lenses despite having quite a few cameras that can take them and its definitely down to that idea that I look at something like a Sigma ART 35mm 1.4 in Nikon mount and think "well I can mount that on my Nikons, Fujis and the MFTs so I'm getting 3 lenses" so nothing in MFT stacks up against that in practical or financial terms.

Its the same with the Fujis being tied to their own system of course but as they are predominantly for stills for me, the AF isn't negotiable so I have to have them.

Fuji's summer deals are supposed to launch next week for Europe and I expect this deal for the three f2 primes on B&H might be one of them

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1338126-REG/fujifilm_xf_50mm_35mm_and.html

I'd be tempted by a similar MFT set but its the price of the wides in MFT that really stings and puts the prices way over the cost of the Fuji set. 

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10 hours ago, jonpais said:

Yeah, I've got all these X-mount lenses, got the X-T2, but it sits at home most of the time. No articulating touch screen I can vlog with, an abominable app that only allows 720p, no zebras and no IBIS. I've either got to lug around a tripod, or use the Zhiyun Crane. I'll probably only start using it once I get my butt in gear and write a script for a short or something. 

 

Maybe one of the new Libec hands free monopod might be a compromise when out and about Jon?

 

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3 hours ago, jonpais said:

I'm definitely in the market for a nice monopod for the X-T2.

The Sirui carbon version is the established one that has a lot of good reports from users for this type of self standing monopod.

Ok comparison video here 

 

 

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Does anyone know about Kamlan? Any Chinese based folks here even perhaps that can tell me a little bit more about 'em?

From a quick Google it seems that 50mm f/1.1 is a production version of a Kodak branded lens concept that was suppose to come out at some point in time ( https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3993060 | http://www.43rumors.com/sakar-launches-new-micro-four-thirds-lenses-branded-as-kodak )?

55mm f/1.2 sounds lovely. It's been a highly succesful recipe in the past (think especially: Tomioka, but also Nikon & Canon have some history here. We even saw Kinoshita bringing back the oldschool formula: https://photorumors.com/2015/10/01/new-kinoshita-kistar-55mm-f1-2-lens (pricey!)).

And what about Kerlee, that gives off some real OTUS/ZF, IRIX wannabe vibes?

oq0EIh8.png40g11Id.png

CEN/LEKO stores lists 'em on JD.com: https://item.jd.com/10510623470.html (EF: 2799 CNY/RMB ~ 409 USD) & https://item.jd.com/10558918481.html (EF: 3280 CNY/RMB ~ 479 USD). Can be found on Taobao as well: https://jj-movie.world.taobao.com/category-1248423012.htm (& Samyang store: https://samyang.world.taobao.com/category-1282217127.htm ?). Usually international pricing is somewhere about 1.3x up to 30-ish USD, though the good ol' Roxsen eBay store is asking for way more: http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/Lenses/3323/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=&_ssn=roxsen&rt=nc&_dmd=2 (Australian dollars, mind you. I always use .com.au as .com alone gets you only '22' hits instead of '68' here for example).

Of course, the more well-known Chinese lens brands are ZY Optics/ZhongYi/Mitakon, SLR Magic, Laowa and maybe even Yongnuo, Meike & Neewer. Less known are Zonlai ( http://zonlai.com ; same as Hengyija? So... a Kenro sub-brand? ), Kaxinda and Wesley for example. Then there's the whole brandless section, like the 'green circle' lenses: https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?ltype=wholesale&d=y&origin=y&isViewCP=y&catId=0&SearchText=green+circle+lens&blanktest=0&tc=af , C-mount lenses that cover APS-C (just the previous C-mount APS-C labelled lenses (more CCTV-style, like the Fujian) in a new coat). Same as the CEN branded ones here from the company mentioned earlier with those mentioned brand lenses ( https://jj-movie.world.taobao.com )? It's like it's all connected.

-- Even Sirui (known quite well for their tripods) seems to have been working on 35mm & 85mm f/1.2 lenses? http://mob.sirui-photo.com/newsshow.php?newsid=170

Maybe it's just me, but find this market rather fascinating, if someone has more info, love to hear about it!

--- Aahh, articles and video:

Still sorta fresh on the market. But, well, I guess sorta typically chinese as well. :P

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On 5/19/2017 at 5:34 PM, Cinegain said:

I feel the high-end is definitely overpriced by give and take 300 bucks easily, just because they're aiming it at people with fuller wallets and know they'll sell less quantity and therefor need a bigger markup to get to the same profit margins as the budget lenses that they sell a ton of. Now, I'm not saying higher quality lenses do not justify the higher price, but there must be people like me that will wait a year or longer for those prices to drop those 300 bucks and get to the price that actually better represents its value. The price of freshly launched lenses is at its peak at launch, but personally I hardly ever buy anything at MSRP (manufacturer suggested retail price), pre-order discounts, freebies, discounts in general, combine & save, grey market... usually waiting for that kinda thing. I'm a sucker for a good deal.

Thing is... if we can have lenses like the Panasonic/Leica 15mm f/1.7, Olympus 75mm f/1.8 or Sigma 30mm f/1.4 at (partially way) less than €749,-... for me there then is just about no way I'm going to pay upwards of a 1000 bucks for the Panasonic/Leica 12mm f/1.4, 42.5mm f/1.2 or Olympus 25mm f/1.2 PRO. Like, I'm willing to spend up to 999 for something like that, but a buck more and they better have something else up their sleeve. The only exception to the 1000-rule here has been the 7-14mm f/2.8 PRO so far, which I got right at its release. Just the rectilinear design, having the zoom flexibility with the f/2.8 throughout and a manual focus de-clutch... it's something else! Of course it isn't perfect, it's huge and heavy and there's no filter thread, but I think that's one of the very few occassions the value is there. Think the 12-100mm f/4 PRO is another one to set itself apart, just I'm a f/2.8 or brighter kinda guy. Don't know, but Olympus is killing it on the PRO zooms. I was hoping for the 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO to come down in price a little bit more significantly (kit with teleconverter; would compliment the 7-14 & 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO superbly), but it isn't really budging. What I really like about the Olympus lenses is the look, feel and manual focus de-clutch. I love all metal, all manual lenses like ones by Voigtländer, SLR Magic, Veydra, Kowa and even ZY Optics/Zhong Yi/Mitakon, but of course there's a place and time for electronic/automatic aperture control and autofocus as well and the way Olympus tries to kinda respect both approaches and cater for most people is admirable.

I also think the new Leica zooms are too expensive, especially being f/2.8-4. I don't really see that much added benefit to the Leica 12-60mm compared to the Lumix 12-60mm; I'd basically end up using 'em in the same situations, meaning treating them as non-sensitive lenses for daylight purposes. The Lumix 12-60mm costs close to nothing in a kit, even has weathersealing and built-in stabilization and optically holds up better than its price would suggest. Like... I basically got it for free because I imported my camera from the UK and the kit was the same price as body only here (plus: the shop threw in a Panasonic 64GB card and Panasonic themselves a free battery grip)... the Leica 12-60mm they're asking 999 for! From what I've seen from this lens... it's not actually worth it and I also kind of don't see the Leica mojo back in it. Now, we in the EU are lucky with kits... so the kit with the Leica costs 600 bucks more than the body only. That's saving you a whopping 399! :unamused: Although even then I wonder if the value is there. I also think the new 12-35mm and 35-100mm f/2.8 II lenses are overpriced. They basically admitted that you'd go for the new one for 'freeze proofing, color design, little better iris control for video (smooth not steps)'. Initially the older ones were scheduled for Dual I.S. 2.0 compatibility with firmware upgrade, but the folks at marketing probably scratched their heads saying 'uhhh... no we're not, it's amazing that this is technically feasible, but we've got lenses to sell!', though you still get Dual I.S., just not with the tiny little extra bit of stabilization 2.0 offers... to me though... is the 12-35mm II worth 999 bucks? A couple of hundred more than the older one? A whole lot more even if you'd consider the 2nd hand market? Don't think so. If here as well you could save like 199~399 bucks by getting the kit... that's probably a move I'd make... but at 999, no way. Still waiting for the GH5 to possibly appear in that kit variant around here for that reason. Also, I think the summer upgrades are sorta worth waiting for, I think the camera has a lot of unreached potential.

So yeah. That's my whole take on it. Of course if you have the money: Gillette, the best a man can get! :grin: Just out of principle I don't want to spend more than I think something's worth.

Okay, just a question. You may recall my comparison between the Sigma Art 50mm f/1.4 and the Leica 42.5mm f/1.2. Obviously not a fair comparison because of the difference in focal lengths, but if I had compared the Nocticron to something of the same focal length with a SB and the Leica hammered it, would you still insist the Leica easn't worth the extra money? As it is, there isn't another ART lens between the 50mm and the 85mm AFAIK, so I can't do anything like a fair comparison. We already know the Leica DG Summilux 12mm beats any of the wide zooms, and it's a few hundred dollars more, but apparently, most readers value 'versatility' over image quality. Yet I'm pretty sure I've seen way more outstanding videos shot with primes or even standard zooms than I have those shot with slow variable aperture universal zooms. Finally, although I've got a SB and several APS-C and full frame lenses, I much prefer smaller, lighter native lenses.

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13 hours ago, jonpais said:

Okay, just a question. You may recall my comparison between the Sigma Art 50mm f/1.4 and the Leica 42.5mm f/1.2. Obviously not a fair comparison because of the difference in focal lengths, but if I had compared the Nocticron to something of the same focal length with a SB and the Leica hammered it, would you still insist the Leica easn't worth the extra money? As it is, there isn't another ART lens between the 50mm and the 85mm AFAIK, so I can't do anything like a fair comparison. We already know the Leica DG Summilux 12mm beats any of the wide zooms, and it's a few hundred dollars more, but apparently, most readers value 'versatility' over image quality. Yet I'm pretty sure I've seen way more outstanding videos shot with primes or even standard zooms than I have those shot with slow variable aperture universal zooms. Finally, although I've got a SB and several APS-C and full frame lenses, I much prefer smaller, lighter native lenses.

Like I said there 'Now, I'm not saying higher quality lenses do not justify the higher price'. But to actually be willing to get one at that higher price is something different. It's a matter of personal perspective. Just, if you get the Sigma 30mm f/1.4 you're really getting a good deal, because they nail it at that price. You really get for what you pay. For me they're like spot #2 on the graph:

2we7Yzh.png

Spend very little and there's not much reward, spend a little bit more and increasingly you will probably be able to find a better deal. At some point the curve flips and the more you spend, you do get better quality, but you have to spend a whole lot more for very little increase in results. Now, especially at the high end, you're not just paying for those extra few percents of results, it's an exclusive market and therefor alone prices are higher (like I said, target audience has deep pockets, drop in quantity results in higher pricing for same overall gains compared to say a kit lens that they sell a boatload off). I'm merely speaking for myself, but, I tend to dangle at the 2 and below section of the graph. I think it's also one of the reasons I'm not a mac user and my phones over the last couple of years came from chinese manufacturers (so not even Samsung, etc).

So, when would the 42.5mm f/1.2 come in question for me? Say, at 1049, it's 250,- off from 1299, still over 1k, but then I might atleast consider it. It might roughly be where the results meet the price for me personally. The Voigtländer 42.5mm brings f/0.95 to the table at 999 bucks. And the lens cap won't say 'Lumix G'. :P Like it, for me, there are so many interesting options on the market, native, third party, speedboosted, that there's plenty of alternatives. I don't feel forced to have to go the Leica route at all. Especially not at 1299. Speaking of 12mm primes. I remember the Olympus 12mm f/2. I thought that would be an amazing one to fly on a glidecam or even when the Nebula 4000 appeared that got me excited. But at 999 launch price, there just was no way. It has come 300+ bucks down in a couple of years. Ultimately they have to become the price more people are actually willing to pay.

But... if you care about the best of the best only and Panasonic/Leica is absolutely right aiming at you with your deep pockets... then... it's a match made in heaven, no? I'm not opposed to that. Besides, you can prance around in exclusivity, because you have the absolute best of the best and others do not. Just... I wouldn't be so easy to dismiss those others. Sure, lenses are one thing, but there are a lot of still really great lenses and people that can do marvelous things with 'em... a lens isn't going to tell a story by itself. Of course, I myself hate when people use extreme examples, like there's nothing in-between, so yeah, obviously the best gear in the best hands leads to awesome things. But, for me I don't have to have the best of the best at literally all costs. That's why we're shooting on Panasonics, Samsungs and what not and not everything on ARRIs. For me it's more about the value, and that's something on a personal level and very very subjective. Of course it's also because most of what I shoot is with lenses 35mm or wider (speedboosted 50mm (0.71x) ~ 35mm as well), that's another kind of thing you could take into account. Or perhaps you want to establish a consistent image character throughout your focal range and the Leica would be the odd man out.

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The value of a lens is very subjective.

What one person values and uses daily, someone else may leave in a drawer unused.

I wouldn't pay the high price of the best M43 lenses because it is not my primary system and mostly I will adapt lenses.      Doesn't mean they are not good, just not good value for me.

Even the Olympus 12 f2 was not being used all that much and I needed some money so I sold it and the same even with the 45 1.8 (as cheap as it is).

Best value lens I own is also by far the most expensive (Canon 17mm TS-E) but other lenses I consider great value at the price include the cheap Canon 40 2.8 STM (which makes a nice portrait lens on M43), Canon EF 100 f2, Sony Zeiss 55 1.8, Sony FE 28-70 kit lens and even the cheap 18-55 APSC IS ii Canon kit lens and the Sigma 150 2.8 APO macro is a very nice dual system lens.

I do get more value if I can use a lens across systems though some are much better used only on one (the Canon 17 TS-E is almost only used on FF Sony).

Value is what you are prepared to pay.

The Pentax 1.7x auto focus adapter is a case in point.     This thing was around from the film days and the start of auto focus.

It allows manual focus lenses to be used for auto focus and is high quality.       I got mine with a film camera before digital was a thing for most people.     It seems Pentax stopped making them so there was a reasonable but limited number around when Pentax started with the IST*D and through the first few DSLR models, there wasn't a huge range of longer AF lenses and the price of the AFA on the likes of Ebay went from around $100 or so up to around $1000 or more even.       It seems Pentax (or someone) started making a new batch and also a few AF lenses started appearing and the price of the AFA plummeted again all in the space of a couple of years.         Those who paid around the $1000 would have said they got value in many cases (I thought it was worth it which is why I didn't cash in and sell mine then).    I went mirrorless and sold most of my Pentax gear so sold the AFA for a fair price (a LOT less than $1000). 

It worked great with a manual focus 300mm 2.8 lens on a stabilized camera.

    HMM, they seem to be at around $500 on Ebay now.

 

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