Canon EOS R7 and R10 have released...

[newfoundmass]

On 6/21/2022 at 12:40 PM, MrSMW said:

I need AF for the video side for a total of around less than 1 minute in 12-15 hours.

Any S camera with a native zoom such as the 25-105 f4 with the right type of AF selected and with the tracking tweaked, plus f8, will track even a pretty fast confetti run.

Leave that on a tripod and hit record with a centre weighted focus. It’ll work. 

I've had very good results shooting wide open with the kit lens on the S5, too. I really do wish people would actually try using and learning these cameras before repeating how bad the AF is. It sucks that you need to learn to work with its strengths like that but it's very doable. Back button focus is also very helpful. 

[newfoundmass]

On 6/21/2022 at 9:49 PM, IronFilm said:

Even the old Canon 5Dmk2 (let alone a much more capable camera such as the Nikon D750, which is still a very old camera itself!) is so capable I can understand if photographers are not necessarily upgrading (or perhaps only upgrading their main camera, but not their backup camera). As they're running a business and can't just waste money unnecessarily.

Honestly for stills you really don't need the latest and greatest. The exception might be for sports and wildlife. Most photographers I know still use older DSLRs, especially older photographers who have the mentality of using their equipment until it doesn't work anymore. I've tried to use that same mentality when it comes to video because at this point anything that has come out in the last 5 or 6 years is still very good. Had I not gotten such a great deal on the S5 I'd still be using the GH5, G85, and GX85 set up. 

 

18 hours ago, MrSMW said:

When I started out it was about 90% craft, 10% marketing/advertising.

Today it’s more like 90% marketing and 10% craft.

You still need the craft of course but if you are not being found in the first place…

 

I'd also add that the proliferation of people doing weddings has made that aspect of getting booked more stressful than the actual work itself. I took last year off due to COVID and being immunocompromised, and it screwed me quite a bit because it allowed others to slide into my place. I'm not mad, I'd do it again if I had to, but it has made getting back to pre-COVID levels pretty difficult. 

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, Django said:

The 8-bit codec was plain weak. And the RAW had massive files. The 4K was also very soft and not in that good soft but detailed cine way. EF so almost no adapting or focal reducer. The body itself was very nice but I just ended up still using the FS7 9.5 times out of 10.

Fair enough! I too wouldn't use a C200 if I had a FS7 instead. (which I do)

12 hours ago, Django said:

Got almost no use of it, bought it right before the price drop and lost so much selling it virtually new. Worst investment ever for me basically. 

Crazy to think my R6 absolutely destroys it IQ wise. 

The FS7 still holds its own. I've bought it twice now. Such a workhorse. 

Ouch, that's a painful loss!

And yeah the C300mk2 had the same problem too as the C200, as the C300mk2 was priced above the FS7, yet saw a steep drop in value because it didn't become as popular as the FS7. 

However, it seems now on eBay the C300mk2 is keeping a bit more value than the FS7. Just simply due to the greater number of FS7 bodies for sale???

 

12 hours ago, Django said:

This of course kinda makes me doubt going C70 (even though I'm leaning towards it) over FX6.

Yeah I think the C70 is one of the nicest releases Canon has done (when you factor in cost, as if you don't care about price... just get a C500mk2!). 

But at the end of the day, what compelling reasons are there to get the C70 over the FX6? If it was C70 vs FS7, then I'd side with the C70. 

But the FX6 is:

Lightweight, compact, has timecode, has good AF, SDI out, DCI 4K 60fps 10bit internal, etc

 

[IronFilm]

51 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Honestly for stills you really don't need the latest and greatest. The exception might be for sports and wildlife. Most photographers I know still use older DSLRs, especially older photographers who have the mentality of using their equipment until it doesn't work anymore. I've tried to use that same mentality when it comes to video because at this point anything that has come out in the last 5 or 6 years is still very good. Had I not gotten such a great deal on the S5 I'd still be using the GH5, G85, and GX85 set up. 

Even for sports/wildlife, then the "old" Nikon D500 is still "the best" you can buy unless you want to spend literally four times as much (or more!). 

Although, the release of the Fujifilm X-H2S will shake that up once it is available. As it has a 15fps mechanical shutter with a deep buffer. (the Canon R7 will also shake it up even further, as although its buffer isn't as deep as the X-H2S, the R7 has enough for sports/wildlife. Impressive that the Nikon D500 has managed to hold onto the #1 crown all the way into mid 2022!!)

[kye]

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I really do wish people would actually try using and learning these cameras before repeating how bad the AF is. It sucks that you need to learn to work with its strengths like that but it's very doable.

Good luck with that!  At this point I think half the people on these forums should list "Panasonic AF hater" on their CV under "Personal interests".

Besides, all it takes is a quick look around and see all the flat-earth, plandemic, moon-landing / holocaust deniers, and you realise that it's more of a miracle that anyone is remotely sensible about anything at all!

[ntblowz]

Back to topic my pre-order R7 with kit got pushed back, might be another month for next shipment ugh.

[Django]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Ouch, that's a painful loss!

And yeah the C300mk2 had the same problem too as the C200, as the C300mk2 was priced above the FS7, yet saw a steep drop in value because it didn't become as popular as the FS7. 

However, it seems now on eBay the C300mk2 is keeping a bit more value than the FS7. Just simply due to the greater number of FS7 bodies for sale???

 

Yeah its pretty much supply & demand but also its a camera that cost $16K when released and some owners are probably more reluctant to "dump" it for peanuts. The C300mk2 is still imo a great older cam as is the FS7. Its actually a camera on my current (Canon system) upgrade list. The C300mk2 has that one elusive codec that would be my perfect default go-to: 12-bit 4:4:4 2K Clog2 internal. That codec alone places the C300mk2 the closest to ARRI's ProRes 4444 XQ. 

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yeah I think the C70 is one of the nicest releases Canon has done (when you factor in cost, as if you don't care about price... just get a C500mk2!). 

But at the end of the day, what compelling reasons are there to get the C70 over the FX6? If it was C70 vs FS7, then I'd side with the C70. 

But the FX6 is:

Lightweight, compact, has timecode, has good AF, SDI out, DCI 4K 60fps 10bit internal, etc

The FX6 is also FF (no speed booster needed) and has that game changing E-ND.

That said the FS7 is still above class (FX9 is its replacement) and is the only cam I know that has the native ENG shoulder mount with extended arm config. Not for everyone nor for every situation but I love the ease of use and comfort of that setup and the output it gives.. here is an old pic I found on google of Andrew at photokina during release !

[herein2020]

16 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I've had very good results shooting wide open with the kit lens on the S5, too. I really do wish people would actually try using and learning these cameras before repeating how bad the AF is. It sucks that you need to learn to work with its strengths like that but it's very doable. Back button focus is also very helpful. 

 @kye @newfoundmass well I can say first hand and without a doubt that I personally gave Panasonic's AF every possible chance before giving up. At one point I was ready to go all in on Panasonic bodies and even L mount lenses; I tested with both the kit lens and the free Sigma 45mm L lens....and after all of my testing there was no way that I could trust it on a professional shoot for my types of projects. The pulsing, hunting, inability to focus when the subject was backlit, etc made it many orders of magnitude worse than even my 6yr old 5D4.

Sure in simple situations it probably works fine, but for gimbal work and complex lighting or low light it is completely unusable.

So back to the R7, the AF looks like it's going to be the usual best in class, no overheating, and XLR options. I think the S5 would still beat it in lowlight, body quality, editable codecs (for us PC users), and video tools but that's about it.  Let's not even talk about the massive lens options available to the R7. 

[kye]

6 hours ago, herein2020 said:

 @kye @newfoundmass well I can say first hand and without a doubt that I personally gave Panasonic's AF every possible chance before giving up. At one point I was ready to go all in on Panasonic bodies and even L mount lenses; I tested with both the kit lens and the free Sigma 45mm L lens....and after all of my testing there was no way that I could trust it on a professional shoot for my types of projects. The pulsing, hunting, inability to focus when the subject was backlit, etc made it many orders of magnitude worse than even my 6yr old 5D4.

Cool - one person did their own testing and evaluations in their own particular scenarios with their own lenses.  Only about 50 more critics left to see if they're talking from experience or hype 🙂 

I mean, I shoot MF so I really don't care, but it's pretty obvious that most critics are remembering the AF of the GH5 v1 firmware and haven't actually fact-checked themselves in about half-a-dozen cameras and dozens of firmware updates.

[MurtlandPhoto]

15 hours ago, herein2020 said:

 @kye @newfoundmass well I can say first hand and without a doubt that I personally gave Panasonic's AF every possible chance before giving up. At one point I was ready to go all in on Panasonic bodies and even L mount lenses; I tested with both the kit lens and the free Sigma 45mm L lens....and after all of my testing there was no way that I could trust it on a professional shoot for my types of projects. The pulsing, hunting, inability to focus when the subject was backlit, etc made it many orders of magnitude worse than even my 6yr old 5D4.

Sure in simple situations it probably works fine, but for gimbal work and complex lighting or low light it is completely unusable.

 

8 hours ago, kye said:

Cool - one person did their own testing and evaluations in their own particular scenarios with their own lenses.  Only about 50 more critics left to see if they're talking from experience or hype 🙂 

For what it's worth, I'll be the second critic to say this. I shot with Panasonic cameras for over a decade starting with the GH1 and owned every GH camera through the GH5s. I then owned the S1 for about a year. I molded my shooting style around the strengths and limitations of Panasonic cameras with AF being their biggest limitation. The S1 was the best of the bunch. I worked within the limits of Panny's AF: well lit situations, with simple movements, usually in 60p, with middle apertures (f/4, f/5.6). Even then the AF only worked OK... I had to be hyper attentive to what the focus was doing to make sure it wasn't going awry. I thought it was good enough, even though I knew it was limiting how I could use the camera.

Then I switched to the Sony a7iv and it was a complete revelation. The AF is incredibly accurate, fast, and feature-rich. It works so well and is so intuitive that I have no reservations about using it for any scenario: wide open, poor lighting, fast movement, complex frames. It just delivers the goods. It allows me to take my focus (pun totally intended) off the AF and turn more attention onto sound, exposure, framing, action, and everything else. Switching to a camera with great AF made me realize how much I was compromising by using a camera with poor AF. Old schoolers might call it lazy but I don't care. I've been reinvigorated to create new things because now this critical feature has been unlocked for me. I wish Panasonic could have done it for me, but nope.

[PannySVHS]

Hey, after learning about the R7 I remember some 1DC goodness from our friend @Dave Maze. He really put that beauty through the paces. I must say, these top notch hand ons from our own forum members have always been the perfect topping on my crispy eggs omelet. If ever a review like Daves handson occurs, lemme know, so I can get myself ready for a good read with omelet, milk coffee and grilled tomatoes. Dave even spoild us with BTS photos of himself fighting the forces of wild creeks, all with his 1DC rigged up, close to his DP eyes. Darn, quality reads, I adore ya! 🙂 

@Django Even that elusive 12bit 444 codec applies the most outrageous temporary noise reduction in lower light, unlit situations. Just saying, C300II can be the worst lowlight camera one can imagine depending on the scenario. Other than that I find it a great image and very easy to grade. I used CLog3 pretty much all the time.

[herein2020]

4 hours ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

 

For what it's worth, I'll be the second critic to say this. I shot with Panasonic cameras for over a decade starting with the GH1 and owned every GH camera through the GH5s. I then owned the S1 for about a year. I molded my shooting style around the strengths and limitations of Panasonic cameras with AF being their biggest limitation. The S1 was the best of the bunch. I worked within the limits of Panny's AF: well lit situations, with simple movements, usually in 60p, with middle apertures (f/4, f/5.6). Even then the AF only worked OK... I had to be hyper attentive to what the focus was doing to make sure it wasn't going awry. I thought it was good enough, even though I knew it was limiting how I could use the camera.

Then I switched to the Sony a7iv and it was a complete revelation. The AF is incredibly accurate, fast, and feature-rich. It works so well and is so intuitive that I have no reservations about using it for any scenario: wide open, poor lighting, fast movement, complex frames. It just delivers the goods. It allows me to take my focus (pun totally intended) off the AF and turn more attention onto sound, exposure, framing, action, and everything else. Switching to a camera with great AF made me realize how much I was compromising by using a camera with poor AF. Old schoolers might call it lazy but I don't care. I've been reinvigorated to create new things because now this critical feature has been unlocked for me. I wish Panasonic could have done it for me, but nope.

I said something very similar on one of these threads. I became an AF gymnast when working with the GH5 and S5. Basically MF everything, with the GH5 I didn't even bother getting anything but manual lenses. Everything was about jumping through hoops to work around the limitations; wider lenses, deeper F stops, maintaining an equal distance, knowing the footage would be mostly soft but hoping some of it was still useable, etc. etc.

The C70 doesn't even have that great of an AF system IMO but it was such a huge upgrade for me. Of course the R5 was a decent upgrade as well for photography, but since my 5D4 had good AF for photos it is not as big of a deal as the C70. Knowing I just have to put that box on whatever I want in focus frees me up in the exact same way....to be more creative, to really focus on framing, composition, lighting, audio, etc etc; vs hoping I haven't violated one of the many rules of a one man band run and gun MF.

[kye]

17 hours ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

For what it's worth, I'll be the second critic to say this. I shot with Panasonic cameras for over a decade starting with the GH1 and owned every GH camera through the GH5s. I then owned the S1 for about a year. I molded my shooting style around the strengths and limitations of Panasonic cameras with AF being their biggest limitation. The S1 was the best of the bunch. I worked within the limits of Panny's AF: well lit situations, with simple movements, usually in 60p, with middle apertures (f/4, f/5.6). Even then the AF only worked OK... I had to be hyper attentive to what the focus was doing to make sure it wasn't going awry. I thought it was good enough, even though I knew it was limiting how I could use the camera.

Then I switched to the Sony a7iv and it was a complete revelation. The AF is incredibly accurate, fast, and feature-rich. It works so well and is so intuitive that I have no reservations about using it for any scenario: wide open, poor lighting, fast movement, complex frames. It just delivers the goods. It allows me to take my focus (pun totally intended) off the AF and turn more attention onto sound, exposure, framing, action, and everything else. Switching to a camera with great AF made me realize how much I was compromising by using a camera with poor AF. Old schoolers might call it lazy but I don't care. I've been reinvigorated to create new things because now this critical feature has been unlocked for me. I wish Panasonic could have done it for me, but nope.

Absolutely.  That takes the count to two people with calm, reasonable, and grounded in experience options about Panasonic AF.  Still dozens to go.

I've never said that AF wasn't useful, wasn't valid, or was somehow lesser than manually focusing.  My issue is with people who endlessly suggest that the AF isn't usable in any situation by anyone ever (or simply jump straight to implying that Panasonic washing machines and microwave ovens are all going to evaporate since the quality of the AF on the first version of the GH5 will somehow bankrupt the entire multinational consumer brands entire existence).

[MrSMW]

7 minutes ago, kye said:

Still dozens to go

‘Mr SMW enters the chat’.

The problem with Panny AF is not the AF itself, but many (most) folks perception of it based on nothing but chatter.

It’s the number one thing they must rectify because the negative press they get over it must be killing sales.

[kye]

48 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

‘Mr SMW enters the chat’.

The problem with Panny AF is not the AF itself, but many (most) folks perception of it based on nothing but chatter.

It’s the number one thing they must rectify because the negative press they get over it must be killing sales.

They must rectify the chatter based on nothing?

Good idea.  Once they've done that they can teach the governments of the world how to rectify conspiracy theories, the science community how to rectify things like climate denial and creationism, sociologists how to rectify extremism and fundamentalism, etc.  There's probably a lot of money in that, but even if it turns out there isn't, we'd still be left with a world that makes more sense, so that's probably a reasonable runners-up prize 🙂 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, kye said:

They must rectify the chatter based on nothing?

So you don’t think Panasonic cameras as a brand, have an autofocus related image problem, on-line, on YouTube and within the photography/video community?

I’d say it’s their single biggest and perhaps only problem and yes, unless they address it, they will continue to lose sales.

But no, before you ask, I do not have any data to back this up, just common sense logic.

You just have to read the volume of folks either jumping ship (after “giving it a try”) or just choosing something else because of the majority negative chatter.

Make a poll. Post it here or anywhere else and ask the question if you think Panasonic has an image problem (right or wrong) due to it’s AF and the overwhelming response would be, “yes it does”.

Ask those who are not using Panasonic or were using, if they would, if Panny had great AF and I’d bet a large portion of the farm, much larger numbers would be all over it.

They are also a somewhat frustrating company in that they do not encourage community.

In fact they slam the door in it’s face.

They put quite a lot out on their channel but then do not allow comments.

They might put out a BTS of how something was made and the content of that BTS will be, “I shot it with Panasonic gear that really allows me to tell a story”, but that’s about the sum of it. And comments/questions/discussion/community disabled on that also.

Beyond that, no idea what point you are trying to make, but in my own personal opinion, there’s more than a bit of self foot shooting going on with old Pannyboy…

[kye]

7 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Beyond that, no idea what point you are trying to make

I agree they have an image problem.  My point was that it's based on ignorance, which cannot be cured.

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

‘Mr SMW enters the chat’.

The problem with Panny AF is not the AF itself, but many (most) folks perception of it based on nothing but chatter.

It’s the number one thing they must rectify because the negative press they get over it must be killing sales.

100%, the negative press is doing waaaaaaaaaaay more damage than their actual AF performance! 

[IronFilm]

24 minutes ago, kye said:

I agree they have an image problem.

Maybe the wrong wording to use when discussing in a photography/video forum! 🤣

[kye]

12 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Maybe the wrong wording to use when discussing in a photography/video forum! 🤣

Not at all.  Their AF will ruin your life.  Not a single Panasonic camera has ever created a single frame where a single item was in focus.  Not even if you filmed in a forrest - it would pick a focus distance where no single trunk, branch, twig or leaf was in focus.  It's so bad that it's probably the cause of global warming and religious extremism!