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Canon Cinema EOS C70 - Ah that explains it then!


Andrew Reid
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On 1/16/2022 at 9:25 AM, currensheldon said:

Yes, I'd say it's pretty significant. 12-bit Raw on the C300 just gives an added depth and richness to the image that 10-bit can't achieve. I was always amazed by the C200's raw and found it pretty stunning, but the DGO sensor adds a whole extra level of usability.

This update makes the C70 probably the finest cinema camera under $9k. I also love that it's an even lighter version of raw (645mbps), which will make it way more useful in a variety of situations.

Time and tests will tell, but I would think the 12-bit image should be a pretty big jump in IQ - and that's saying something coming from that sensor.

 

On 1/14/2022 at 9:01 AM, Mmmbeats said:

So RAW recording rumoured to be announced soon.  Do people think this will be a significant upgrade?  Any experience of C300iii RAW?

I would just think if the project is that important, why not spend the money and go with a more suited camera system? The Alexa's 444 ProRes files likely look much better and will save time and money in post. Maybe even the RED saves you money because of the editing speed.

End of the day... If you want the best image quality, you'll have to deal with a painful work flow. The joy of the Canon Cinema Cameras for me is the ease of use. All around.

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I was so set on the C70 but the R5C is really making me reconsider. FF 8K Raw for cheaper just seems so hard to pass.

Really need to see DR & noise comparison between these two cameras. Especially with the C70 CRL update.

CRL should bring a substantial IQ increase to the C70, in this R5C codec comparison the difference in sharpness & detail is huge:

 

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Raw is a great addition to the C70, but man, poor C300iii owners. Canon is reshuffling the deck, squeezing some more juice out of lower-end models that sell rather than protecting their pro cinema lines. 

But I guess C300iv RF, 6K S35? Gotta leave a little room for the C500iii RF 8K DGO. 

 

 

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True I guess IQ wise there should be now zero differences in between C70 & C300iii ?

Pretty crazy considering the camera isn't even 2 years old but yeah any EF cam seems like poor investment, major transition point at Canon..

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1 hour ago, independent said:

C70 should have 13 stops of dynamic range, R5/R5c should have around 12 w/ log 2/3 (right?)

Canon claims the Raw update on C70 will unlock the full DR potential from the sensor so maybe expect an extra stop.

DGO sensor also does wonders for shadow noise so its a whole different exposure method (to the left) and has much better shadow recovery.

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2 hours ago, independent said:

Still think Komodo has it. 

Global shutter and Recode Raw > Canon Raw.  That patent, may it burn in hell, is still doing its job.

 

Agreed. The global shutter kills it. I've seen some crazy jello in 60fps on the C70. I think this might be partially due to Long GOP compression only...

 

1 hour ago, Django said:

Canon claims the Raw update on C70 will unlock the full DR potential from the sensor so maybe expect an extra stop.

DGO sensor also does wonders for shadow noise so its a whole different exposure method (to the left) and has much better shadow recovery.

Interesting... I think the C70 suffers most in the highlights. The "sun blob" on most digital cameras is very much there. Remember though, there will be added noise in the shadows due to the raw codec.

3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

What is the benefit of these over WideDR Rec.709?

No grading needed. Wide DR is still a profile that needs some grading. Those profiles also look really nice in lowlight settings, (ISO 5000 etc.) There is really no need to save the detail in the blacks or the highlights. It reduces the noise and time in post.

The REC.709 non Wide DR on the Canon C70 is really really bad in my experience. Wide DR is great. I just think for baked in profiles, those will be clutch for some jobs. 

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1 hour ago, Django said:

Canon claims the Raw update on C70 will unlock the full DR potential from the sensor so maybe expect an extra stop.

DGO sensor also does wonders for shadow noise so its a whole different exposure method (to the left) and has much better shadow recovery.

IIRC the c300iii also measured 13 stops among online tests using the Xylophone charts, so maybe that's the top. But yeah with raw you can always fight for a fraction buried in the noise floor 

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27 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

Agreed. The global shutter kills it. I've seen some crazy jello in 60fps on the C70. I think this might be partially due to Long GOP compression only.

True, but there's something beyond jello...I hate to pop open a can of "motion cadence," but I've inadvertently noticed something smoother about the Komodo's image during camera movement than that of the R5 in even 8K raw (and others, but that's my other camera right now).

It's almost that the pixels are somewhat dancing/moving/winking in the rolling shutter, whereas the Komodo's image seems more stable, even during handheld moving shots. All this contributes to less of a video look. But the R5 is outstanding in static shots or very slow controlled movement.

 

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1 minute ago, independent said:

True, but there's something beyond jello...I hate to pop open a can of "motion cadence," but I've inadvertently noticed something smoother about the Komodo's image during camera movement than that of the R5 in even 8K raw (and others, but that's my other camera right now).

It's almost that the pixels are somewhat dancing/moving/winking in the rolling shutter, whereas the Komodo's image seems more stable, even during handheld moving shots. All this contributes to less of a video look. But the R5 is outstanding in static shots or slow pans. 

I completely agree. I can tell the difference by the way shots settle on the Komodo or Film. It just looks different. The sway is different.

I'm just saying, the jello goes beyond the average "motion cadence" discussion. This was an artifact I have never seen on the bigger Canon Cinema cameras. This was either due to the weight, or the Long GOP compression... Or maybe both. Reminded me of the t2i.

It would be fun to shoot a high motion scene on both cameras and look at the differences. Maybe I will do that sometime.

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1 hour ago, independent said:

Why compare clog 2 with clog? 

As proven by numerous tests, 10-11 stops is the best DR that the R5 can yield when shot in RAW. R5/R5C has no Clog2 during the RAW encoding. Selecting the Clog2 gamma in Resolve will yield the same DR:

582498059_R5C8K-RAW-DR.thumb.jpg.df0f1277092bbdf7a0f005d74c03244b.jpg

All of this makes sense when you realize you are comparing a 12 bit sensor readout in the R5 to a 16 bit source (2 X 14 bit readout in DGO mode) in the C70.

Canon rates the C70 at 16+ stops, significantly above any claims they have made for the R5.

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Correction: 16 bit is a number from CVP's claim on the C70's DGO. But I don't see how they came up with that number . . .

Technically: 2 x 14bit (16,384 gradients) = 15 bit or 32,768 gradients.

Still, it is much more than the 12 bit (4,096) in the R5's video mode.

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19 hours ago, Kino said:

As proven by numerous tests, 10-11 stops is the best DR that the R5 can yield when shot in RAW. R5/R5C has no Clog2 during the RAW encoding. Selecting the Clog2 gamma in Resolve will yield the same DR:

582498059_R5C8K-RAW-DR.thumb.jpg.df0f1277092bbdf7a0f005d74c03244b.jpg

All of this makes sense when you realize you are comparing a 12 bit sensor readout in the R5 to a 16 bit source (2 X 14 bit readout in DGO mode) in the C70.

Canon rates the C70 at 16+ stops, significantly above any claims they have made for the R5.

And this is why I keep flipping back and forth on these two cameras.

I like the size of the R5C but mostly I’m after the 4K downsampled image, unlimited everything, and occasional 8K RAW but the DR is no better than my R5. I would also miss IBIS for photos.

The C70 has better DR and internal ND but is S35. I have no interest in EF + focal reducer. I would rather go pure RF.

I’m leaning C70 since I already have R5. I’m sure we will see FF C camera in the under $6K price range in the future. Would love a FF C70 with internal ND. But is there enough room in the body for all of that?

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12 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I’m leaning C70 since I already have R5. I’m sure we will see FF C camera in the under $6K price range in the future. Would love a FF C70 with internal ND. But is there enough room in the body for all of that?

A better question would be "is there enough room in the hearts of the Canon executives for all of that".

Spoiler alert, the short answer is NO.  The longer answer is "hahahaha..  you're kidding right?  Shut up stupid customer and just be thankful for whatever we give you, and remember that when talking about our products you're only allowed to talk about the resolution and the colour science - every other comment is banned"

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