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Anaconda_

The new Blackmagic RAW Codec

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13 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Including a lens, recording media, top handle and a few other accessories too, no doubt.

Definitely a deal, but I wonder if the Braw will push the market prices up.

Well I already have EF lenses. And when I wrote that, I thought the Ursa Mini 4K had an SD slot because supposedly they are getting the 4K 12:1 Raw to work with SD cards used with the BMPCC... which is huge for the P4K but the Mini 4K does not have an SD slot and instead uses CFast cards which are considerably cheaper than CFast2 cards... so that’s not horrible.

But you are right, the prices could rise on the used market.

There are also some theories that the processor in the Micro may be able to handle B-Raw... which would be great if implemented. 

19 minutes ago, Dunjoye said:

Does it really improve the image though? I am looking at alot of the b-raw images, very pleasing to the eye, but nothing significantly different. Braw doesn't really address the  FPN,  sensitive sensor issue with the UM4K does it?

According to members on bmcuser, B-Raw has improved FPN issues on the UMP, so it may help with the UM4K as well if implemented. Along with Gen 4 color they are also claiming a better noise floor and more organic noise overall. 

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12 hours ago, mercer said:

@Jonesy Jones don’t you have an Ursa?

It does look really good, I wouldn’t say it’s my favorite, but it’s up there. The Alexa is still untouched in my opinion. 

I've owned nearly every BM camera, but at present none, though the P4K is pre-ordered. The UMP image was amazing. Absolutely stunning. I did not own it for too long as Andrew wrote an article about how our enlarged rigs were decreasing production value instead of increasing. I agreed. Bought a GH5, which is also great, and sold the UMP. I'm kind of regretting that now because the image coming out of that camera with the new .braw is more than stunning. Dare I say it's film. 

I realize that in a side by side the Alexa or Venice would probably win, but would they also beat film? 

There is something extremely special about the footage coming out the UMP with .braw. I am not expecting the P4K to be it's equal, but so far it's already coming very close, we'll see what happens when .braw is added. 

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2 hours ago, jbCinC_12 said:

And, it's still in Beta, so who knows.  It'd be nice if they implement it on the P4K once they've rolled it out for the Ursas.

 

BM has said they would. Any reason to think they won't? From watching the video, what I gather is that this raw codec is HIGHLY specialized to the sensor and camera. Like way more specialized than any other raw format ever has been. It has taken them 2+ years to get where they are now. I don't think this will be a drag and drop thing for the P4K. It only makes sense for them to go for the original UM 4.6K first since the sensor tech is so similar to the UMP. I hope they then go with the P4K. 

54 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

fixed pattern noise is very, very much reduced

motion is better

highlight roll off is better

this is a HUGE upgrade to the UMP:

Very jealous. I want my UMP back. lol

I'm thinking BM has done something, who knows, maybe even on accident, with this new .braw. I have no idea about any of this tech, but I am wondering if the de-mosaic work being done in camera is doing something special to the footage. It's stunning.

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9 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

BM has said they would. Any reason to think they won't? From watching the video, what I gather is that this raw codec is HIGHLY specialized to the sensor and camera. Like way more specialized than any other raw format ever has been. It has taken them 2+ years to get where they are now. I don't think this will be a drag and drop thing for the P4K. It only makes sense for them to go for the original UM 4.6K first since the sensor tech is so similar to the UMP. I hope they then go with the P4K. 

Very jealous. I want my UMP back. lol

I'm thinking BM has done something, who knows, maybe even on accident, with this new .braw. I have no idea about any of this tech, but I am wondering if the de-mosaic work being done in camera is doing something special to the footage. It's stunning.

Yes good call!

Curious now to see if other camera companies start to adopt this technology.

Also it shows the power of the little guys.  Not Sony, Canon, Arri, Apple (with Pro Res RAW), or Red came to this concept first, right?  I think its a pretty unique process

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17 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

Yes good call!

Curious now to see if other camera companies start to adopt this technology.

Also it shows the power of the little guys.  Not Sony, Canon, Arri, Apple (with Pro Res RAW), or Red came to this concept first, right?  I think its a pretty unique process

The more I think about it, the more I think this is way more specialized than any of us really understand. Like mapping the human genome specialized. Maybe not quite, but I think BM went down a rabbit trail that probably seems ludicrous to the other guys. I kind of doubt they'll follow. 

The only downside is that I think going forward in the future this could delay future camera releases. From here on out we'll all assume that each new BM camera comes stock with .braw, I mean it's their own codec right? But the amount of hours it takes to specialize to each sensor/camera is probably massive. So either it takes longer to get to market, or its released without .braw. I hope I'm wrong.

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On 9/15/2018 at 1:18 AM, Anaconda_ said:

Isn't this some Pied Piper, middle out kind of ish?

 

The best TV scene of the year!

 

 

On 9/15/2018 at 3:07 AM, mercer said:

Well told story. Stop buying cameras and turn that into a short film.


Maybe a short film about Not Buying Cameras?

 

 

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On 9/15/2018 at 3:33 AM, KnightsFan said:

I'm not super knowledgeable about Businesses, but my 2 cents: Unlike many other camera companies, Blackmagic is private. Shareholders require that a large public company GROW in order to make share prices rise, while a private company can stay about the same size without much consequence. So Blackmagic has a lot more leeway to pursue a philosophy, even if it makes them less money in the short term.

What they stand to gain in the long term is to make their name synonymous with innovation, the way that Arri or Leica are synonymous with quality.

Quite likely, it is possibly that BMD's owner/founder Grant feels like he is "rich enough" and is happy with more medium levels of profit growth if in exchange he manages to make BMD be a name that goes down in history as a major influence and game changer to the entire film and medium industry. 

I could imagine doing the same if I was in his shoes, as while I'd certainly first of all be seeking the all mighty $$ (especially as if you're a teeny company you can't make much of an impact anyway, you need a certain amount of capital investment built up behind you to achieve some of the R&D goals you'd like to accomplish), after a certain point is reached I might be more looking at the legacy I'd leave behind. And without the pressures of public shareholders, you're free to do this. 

On 9/15/2018 at 3:51 AM, KnightsFan said:

Exactly! But since the format is open, other manufacturers can get those benefits as well. Only Blackmagic gets the street cred for it, though.

Fingers crossed Kinefinity can take up braw as well!

 

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On 9/15/2018 at 4:40 AM, KnightsFan said:

- It's not RAW in the way we used to mean. It's compressed, processed, and partially demosaiced. While the terminology doesn't detract from its awesomeness, I feel strongly about calling things what they are. (I said the same thing about ProRes RAW, Canon RAWLite, Redcode RAW, etc.).

When there are so so many other "raws" (like you just listed! 

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On 9/15/2018 at 4:40 AM, KnightsFan said:

- It's not RAW in the way we used to mean. It's compressed, processed, and partially demosaiced. While the terminology doesn't detract from its awesomeness, I feel strongly about calling things what they are. (I said the same thing about ProRes RAW, Canon RAWLite, Redcode RAW, etc.).

When there are so so many other "raws" (like you just listed! "ProRes RAW, Canon RAWLite, Redcode RAW, etc.") then to "compete" against them in the buzzword marketing world then BMD kinda had to include "raw" in their name as well.

On 9/15/2018 at 4:40 AM, KnightsFan said:

- Metadata can hold manufacturer-specified color information. This was a criticism Petty made earlier this year against ProRes Raw. Looking back, he was probably itching to blurt out how much better their raw format was!


I bet braw is why Grant was so lukewarm about committing to implement ProResRAW in DaVinci Resolve or in BMD's cameras.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:40 AM, KnightsFan said:

- Metadata can be stored per frame for things like focus distance. This is a must-have for VFX.

Hopefully a gyroscope/accelerometer will be included in a future camera, and this will be added into the metadata as well for VFX.

 

 

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:40 AM, KnightsFan said:

- And finally, the big one: The SDK is open!  I imagine this will quickly find its way into open source programs like VLC, Ffmpeg, Blender, Kdenlive, and more. This won't affect the Big Guys much, but for the low budget folks that will be huge.

- Imagine if VLC implemented the SDK and could natively show Raw files, with color correction information. You could send a client/friend a raw file straight from camera for viewing without transcoding or using proxies.

Very awesome! So long as their computer is fast enough, all  you need to do is tell them to install VLC. (which many people already have anyway)
 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:40 AM, KnightsFan said:

- The file size was one reason I haven't really looked at the P4K, and have been so intent on cameras with H.265 (Fuji, Z-Cam). It looks like Blackmagic Raw might bring drastic file size improvements. 46 MB/s for 4.6k 12:1 isn't bad. I'm guesstimating that's like 12 MB/s for HD? That's low enough for me, though I'll have to see how the quality compares to H.265 at the same bitrate.

Same boat here!

The BMPCC4K is undoubtedly a very attractive camera, but it had a few downsides, but now being able to shoot braw at half the file size of ProRes LT that just removed another objection to buying a BMPCC4K.

 

On 9/17/2018 at 8:50 PM, Dunjoye said:

Does it really improve the image though? I am looking at alot of the b-raw images, very pleasing to the eye, but nothing significantly different. Braw doesn't really address the  FPN,  sensitive sensor issue with the UM4K does it?


Those all reasons which will keep the secondhand URSA Mini 4K prices depressed on eBay

 

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8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Imagine this new Raw on the original BMPCC. Wow talk about a Cine camera on the cheap. It is great now, with that, damn.

It would stop me shooting ProRes with my BMPCC! ha
As 97% of the time my BMPCC is in ProRes, not raw.

 

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On 9/17/2018 at 10:37 AM, mercer said:

I just read the entire thread on B-Raw on bmcuser. According to some of the posters over there, it should be in the P4K as Grant said they are working on it, but it seems it will be down the road... whatever that means. They also are under the impression that the entire Ursa Mini line will get it before the P4K.

If the Mini 4K gets B-Raw, I may have to pull the trigger on a used one. I really like the image out of that camera without B-Raw, with it... it becomes one of the cheapest S35mm Raw cinema cameras on the market at $2000 used.

mini 4k, does it have the global shutter sensor of the 4k production camera? that with braw and with usuable lowlight at 800iso would be awesome. no mft mount though;/

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On 9/17/2018 at 5:08 AM, mercer said:

Well I already have EF lenses. And when I wrote that, I thought the Ursa Mini 4K had an SD slot because supposedly they are getting the 4K 12:1 Raw to work with SD cards used with the BMPCC... which is huge for the P4K but the Mini 4K does not have an SD slot and instead uses CFast cards which are considerably cheaper than CFast2 cards... so that’s not horrible.

But you are right, the prices could rise on the used market.

There are also some theories that the processor in the Micro may be able to handle B-Raw... which would be great if implemented. 

According to members on bmcuser, B-Raw has improved FPN issues on the UMP, so it may help with the UM4K as well if implemented. Along with Gen 4 color they are also claiming a better noise floor and more organic noise overall. 

I can't see any FPN at 3200 ISO - it's moving noise - much more organic

 

I added a more filmic grade as well to my test:

 

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38 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

I can't see any FPN at 3200 ISO - it's moving noise - much more organic

 

I added a more filmic grade as well to my test:

 

It looks great! And maybe a little sharper? Do you use LUTS, I always really like your grades, muted earth tones, really organic look. Oh yeah, did you test BRaw with SD cards?

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2 minutes ago, mercer said:

It looks great! And maybe a little sharper? Do you use LUTS, I always really like your grades, muted earth tones, really organic look. Oh yeah, did you test BRaw with SD cards?

didn't test with sd card yet

 

used the visioncolor impulz lut for redlog with it

thanks man - didn't add sharpening

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56 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

mini 4k, does it have the global shutter sensor of the 4k production camera? that with braw and with usuable lowlight at 800iso would be awesome. no mft mount though;/

I thought I read that it has the same sensor as the BMPC4K but I could be wrong. And I don’t know if it’s a fact that BRaw will end up in that camera. Someone on BMCuser said they “thought” or “learned” that BRaw was coming to the entire Mini line before it will be implanted in the P4K. But maybe it’s just the 4.6 line... IDK. The Micro is dropping in price on the used market as well, I’m almost tempted to buy one of those and hope BRaw gets in there. With the unique multi-use function of the Micro, for drones and crash cams, it may be something worth doing for BM... unless they are planning a M4K in the future.

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I wonder if they'll add Braw to the Video Assist. It would open up the codec to every other camera BUT, maybe the codec depends too much on being programmed to the particular sensor and so can only work for in camera recording.

The Video Assist already has SDI in, so I assume there's no hardware stopping it from recording raw in one way or another... that said, I've never seen a cDNG option on our one.

 

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