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Snowbro

Why Do People Hate The Nikon Z6? What mirrorless to go with

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I haven't spent countless hours researching the camera, I just see everyone says its a flop and Nikon failed. 

What I have gathered from quick secondary research is:

  • No eye af (don't care)
  • Single card slot
  • Potentially low battery life. 
  • Could be high rolling shutter in 4k
  • Questionable low light AF performance

Is that it? Seems like it trades eye af and less battery for 10 bit out over the a7iii. I did see early reports of the ibis not working perfect, but I don't know if that was because it had an adapter on. Also the whole doesn't focus well in low light thing from the northrups. 

The biggest thing that prevents me from wanting one is: 

  • Hate their announced lens lineup. A full 2 years of only f/1.8 primes (minus the 50mm 1.2 in 2-3 years?) I like shooting with a 35mm 1.4/85mm 1.4 most of the time. Don't want to buy their old dslr glass, plus hate that huge ugly adapter that apparently makes IS and AF not work well. 
  • Rolling shutter
  • Possibly bad video AF performance outside of bright sunlight

I have really wanted to get the a7iii, but these things bother me too much:

  • Still has randomly performing AF (Focus breathing, jittery, not smooth). Experienced Sony pros have stated that it does great with face tracking AF, but can struggle with inanimate objects (not tracking, just gimbal etc). I really hated using the a6500 on a gimbal, because it would drop focus about 30% of the time following someone. Sounds like this does the same thing from what I found on reviews, regardless of the perfect af settings. 
  • 120p FHD looks extremely soft and mushy details with artifacts. It also is jittery, probably due to the need of an increased bit rate. 
  • Not a fan of their colors and in 8 bit, it can be difficult to fix in some situations. 
  • Sensor dust is on tons of sony videos and that would kill it for me. I am glad to see canon addressed this problem, but in a bad camera...
  • Weather sealing; I don't plan on dropping it, but I do video work for companies in the snow. Snowmobiling/ski resorts. 
  • The lenses are good from sony, but dang.. I want another 70-200 2.8 and I can literally get it for (new) $1,000 cheaper going with canon than sony (or nikon).  

My needs include pro grade photos and dslr/mirrorless video on each project. I currently do have the 1dx ii; it is an awesome camera, but I really am getting sick of canons crap. I want a camera I can take on a trip that will not draw everyone's attention from a 100 yard radius. There have been times where I had people stalk me and cops called for shooting video on a gimbal with a mic. Having a lightweight, high quality setup on a gimbal would be nice. I think mine gets to around 10 lbs with everything. After shooting for 8 hours a day, it can get annoying. 

I have sold all but my 16-35mm 2.8, 85mm 1.2 and 35mm 1.4, so I am not extremely tied down. I do feel held a little hostage by their dpaf and colors (sometimes). I guess I can wait for them to release their pro mirrorless, but I swear that will take another 6+ months. Side note: I saw that SYRP YT channels vid on the eos r and around the 3:20 mark, the 720p 120p actually looks a little better than most sony 1080p at 120p i've seen, how is that possible? There was some moir on the building though I think. 

It is frustrating that there is no clear choice (thank you canon for the eos r). Hopefully the panasonic ff will be good; I doubt it will fill the photo needs, but I could always pair it with an a7iii or something. 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
32 minutes ago, Snowbro said:

Sensor dust is on tons of sony videos and that would kill it for me. I am glad to see canon addressed this problem, but in a bad camera...

FYI Sensor dust is an issue with ALL mirrorless cameras not just Sony's..

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I don't think people hate it. It's just not terribly exciting on paper. Its too early to really judge yet though. 
I'd say the reaction to the Nikon is lukewarm. The Canon on the other hand... now there might be some hate there. 

 

I'd recommend waiting to see what the Panasonic announcement brings. Its the last big imminent announcement I think, and it could very well steal the show. 

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1 minute ago, jonpais said:

@Snowbro If you haven’t ordered the Z6 already, you might not be holding one in your hands for another year. 

Hey, by that time Canon will have a proper FF mirrorless haha

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I am in the same position. Also want everything in one body. Just for feelings super filmmakerish I would consider the p4k untill i can fondle that z6 in about a years time. I love the z6 from what I have seen so far. It just seems like a no bullshit camera but again other mothers also have beautiful daughters aka a73....

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Rent an A7iii and Metabones adapter and try your existing Canon lenses on it?

Maybe you might find it closer to what you want than you think and you can still get that "cheap" 70-200 2.8 from Canon or third party in Canon mount and use it on the Sony.

 

I think the Z looks ok but currently it is more for people who have a stack of recent Nikon AF lenses more than someone switching or staring from scratch.

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2 hours ago, Snowbro said:
  • Hate their announced lens lineup. A full 2 years of only f/1.8 primes (minus the 50mm 1.2 in 2-3 years?) I like shooting with a 35mm 1.4/85mm 1.4 most of the time. Don't want to buy their old dslr glass, plus hate that huge ugly adapter that apparently makes IS and AF not work well. 

f1.4 vs f1.8 isn't really a massively big deal, especially as the f1.8 will be sharp wide open. 

 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

I haven't spent countless hours researching the camera, I just see everyone says its a flop and Nikon failed. 

You need to ignore all the photographers, they care about completely different things to what us filmmakers want. 

Single card slot? Not a big deal for us!

 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:
  • Weather sealing; I don't plan on dropping it, but I do video work for companies in the snow. Snowmobiling/ski resorts. 


Go for Nikon then!
 

1 hour ago, Ki Rin said:

I don't think people hate it. It's just not terribly exciting on paper. Its too early to really judge yet though. 

Not exciting on paper??

Depends on your perspective. 

First ever affordable 4K 10bit vistavision camera is plenty exciting for many people. 

And timecode etc will be gravy on top. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Snowbro said:

Hey, by that time Canon will have a proper FF mirrorless haha

Someone is feeling wildly optomistic tonight. 

 

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2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

Focus breathing

Focus breathing is from lenses, not AF systems. 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

inanimate objects (not tracking, just gimbal etc).

I don't know what focus modes people use, but the AF is excellent in the modes where you just have a focus box and keep it over your subject. Tracking gets murkier. People confuse tracking and AF-C all the time. 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

120p FHD looks extremely soft and mushy details with artifacts. It also is jittery, probably due to the need of an increased bit rate. 

Are you sure you're looking at the right camera? I've seen you say the same thing in a lot of threads, but the A7 III 120p spanks most things out there. Perhaps someone was using the S&Q modes (which work differently to the 100/120p mode)? Or maybe you're referring to the A6300/6500 which indeed had pretty awful 120p. 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

The lenses are good from sony, but dang.. I want another 70-200 2.8 and I can literally get it for (new) $1,000 cheaper going with canon than sony (or nikon)

Just keep in mind that adapted lenses effectively get no AF on the A7 III. I am not a huge fan of the Sony lens range (there is some good stuff in there) but as someone who uses a number of different brands I like to keep to EF because it is adaptable, but does limit the uses on a Sony. The Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 RXD however is an absolute peach of a lens, small, fast, awesome AF, great on gimbals etc plus it is VERY reasonably priced. I would take the extra stop of the Sony + Tamron combo over the Nikon + f/4 zoom personally. Nikon has 10bit, but only to an external recorder and the situations your in that is going to be very awkward IMO. You also don't get Log internally either. Sony's Picture Profiles enable you to create pretty much whatever colour look you want in camera - Which is handy as well. 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

It is frustrating that there is no clear choice (thank you canon for the eos r).

It does seem like Canon are making you sad. Not those other brands though, they seem like they're both perfect ;) 

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1 hour ago, MdB said:

Focus breathing is from lenses, not AF systems. 

I don't know what focus modes people use, but the AF is excellent in the modes where you just have a focus box and keep it over your subject. Tracking gets murkier. People confuse tracking and AF-C all the time. 

Are you sure you're looking at the right camera? I've seen you say the same thing in a lot of threads, but the A7 III 120p spanks most things out there. Perhaps someone was using the S&Q modes (which work differently to the 100/120p mode)? Or maybe you're referring to the A6300/6500 which indeed had pretty awful 120p. 

Just keep in mind that adapted lenses effectively get no AF on the A7 III. I am not a huge fan of the Sony lens range (there is some good stuff in there) but as someone who uses a number of different brands I like to keep to EF because it is adaptable, but does limit the uses on a Sony. The Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 RXD however is an absolute peach of a lens, small, fast, awesome AF, great on gimbals etc plus it is VERY reasonably priced. I would take the extra stop of the Sony + Tamron combo over the Nikon + f/4 zoom personally. Nikon has 10bit, but only to an external recorder and the situations your in that is going to be very awkward IMO. You also don't get Log internally either. Sony's Picture Profiles enable you to create pretty much whatever colour look you want in camera - Which is handy as well. 

It does seem like Canon are making you sad. Not those other brands though, they seem like they're both perfect ;) 

Wrong on your first 3/5 responses mr troll. Go watch some sony videos and you can see the background jump in & out of focus very fast sometimes. Not conventional focus breathing where it hunts (which I see too). I used the box for the focus point while on a gimbal. So many videos showcasing how bad the 120p looks on sony. It is soft, full of artifacts, lacks color depth and jitters from lower than needed bit rate. 

I thought you had to go be a canon apologist somewhere about now? Lol

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4 hours ago, Snowbro said:

 

  • Sensor dust is on tons of sony videos and that would kill it for me. I am glad to see canon addressed this problem, but in a bad camera...
  • Weather sealing; I don't plan on dropping it, but I do video work for companies in the snow. Snowmobiling/ski resorts. 
  • The lenses are good from sony, but dang.. I want another 70-200 2.8 and I can literally get it for (new) $1,000 cheaper going with canon than sony (or nikon).  

Is "weather sealing" actually weather sealing or is it just weather resistance? There is a difference and some companies are more fast and loose with the term than others.

You usually don't see sensor dust at wider apertures. Mostly when you do see it in stills/footage it is because the photographer/videographer chose to deal with too much light by using small apertures rather than putting a ND filter on the lens. 

18 minutes ago, Snowbro said:

Wrong on your first 3/5 responses mr troll. Go watch some sony videos and you can see the background jump in & out of focus very fast sometimes. Not conventional focus breathing where it hunts (which I see too). I used the box for the focus point while on a gimbal. So many videos showcasing how bad the 120p looks on sony. It is soft, full of artifacts, lacks color depth and jitters from lower than needed bit rate. 

I thought you had to go be a canon apologist somewhere about now? Lol

Actually, focus breathing is small changes in the field of view as the lens elements move when the camera is trying to find focus (your focal length changes slightly when this happens). It creates a visual effect that looks like breathing, hence the term. It can be quite disconcerting once you notice it, so you need to try and avoid having it happen in your footage. If you have a wide depth of field the image might look like everything is in focus but you know that the lens is still hunting in spite of that because of these field of view changes. Some lenses will do it more than others due to their particular design, so you might not see it your personal equipment setup.

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The Z6 is the only mirrorless fullframe I would consider buying but fullframe is so unexciting with all that medium format becoming accesible, maybe the z6mkii or a used as a walk around camera.

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2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

Wrong on your first 3/5 responses mr troll.

Oh here we go 'bro'. Clearly you're a clueless drongo and one with nothing to back up his mouth. So let's try starting here: https://www.eoshd.com/2017/08/slow-mo-shootout-camera-gives-detail-120fps/

The A99 II comes out on top. Ahead of the GH5 which is ahead of the Leica SL which is ahead of...wait for it... Your drongo noggins 1DX II. The A99 II is the same as the A7R III. The A7 III is considered to be better than the A7R III. 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

Go watch some sony videos and you can see the background jump in & out of focus very fast sometimes.

That's not focus breathing. Get a clue, then come back. 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

Not conventional focus breathing where it hunts (which I see too).

Also not breathing. 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

I used the box for the focus point while on a gimbal.

For what? Got an example? 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

So many videos showcasing how bad the 120p looks on sony. It is soft, full of artifacts, lacks color depth and jitters from lower than needed bit rate. 

*sigh* get a clue. Find an example where the A7 III is demonstrably worse than the 'top' contenders? 

2 hours ago, Snowbro said:

I thought you had to go be a canon apologist somewhere about now? Lol

Bro, I don't care about brands. Just dumb shit comments. 

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Of all the new stuff, the Z7 is the one I am leaning towards buying.

The full frame 4K looks like D850++ And that already looked like a 1D C. VERY cinematic.

It has superb colour. Nikon's colour science is just as good as Canon's, maybe even a bit better. Great dynamic range. Flat profile and now they have LOG as well. You only have to see some of the early sample videos to see how nice the skin tones are.

I don't see any softness, moire, aliasing or rolling shutter issues in the sample videos. I am sure Z6 is fine as well but maybe 1080/120p is better on the Z7.

Nikon's codec implementation is superb. Has been since the D750. Now it is high-bitrate 4K. A total winner.

I like the look of the ergonomics (and colour science) more than my Sony bodies.

I expect MdB will reply next saying why you should buy a shitty EOS R instead, haha.

I only have one concern and that is the AF via Nikon F adapter. The native lenses are a bit boring for the price. It clearly has great video AF with those Z lenses but if it has great video AF with Nikon F lenses as well, I am sold, because I already have a bunch of those including Sigma ART.

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7 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The full frame 4K looks like D850++ And that already looked like a 1D C. VERY cinematic.

Almost looks as good as a Canon, weird praise Andrew. 

8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

It has superb colour. Nikon's colour science is just as good as Canon's, maybe even a bit better. Great dynamic range. Flat profile and now they have LOG as well. You only have to see some of the early sample videos to see how nice the skin tones are.

Wait, wait, wait. Has logic totally escaped you? This is what you have to say about the EOS R (which we know deep down you love and why you keep pulling his / her hair): 

"10bit is only via HDMI. Some may see this as progressive. I don’t. It’s a hangover from the past that pleases nobody but the external monitor manufacturers. HDMI is the worse connector known to man. Back in 2014 I did not want to use a bulky recorder on the Sony A7S to get 4K, yet they think I want to use it here just to get a small incremental improvement in image quality?

HDMI is not really an uncompressed signal. It isn’t like having 14bit RAW data or real 10bit ProRes 4444. It is crippled 10bit and looking at the image might not even be real 4:2:2. On top of that the shitty cable can fall out at any moment.

The 10bit processing is INSIDE the EOS R so I don’t see why I should have to buy an expensive add-on to get at it. Panasonic and soon Sony with the A7S III and Fuji with the X-T3 route their 10bit processing to an SD card, without any compromise to ergonomics, weight, wobbly cables or added costs."

This issue seems to only apply to Canon, because once we are talking about Nikon again it is like the saviour has come to town to offer us 10bit and Log ONLY via HDMI. Let's say that again, in order to use Log or 10bit on the NIKON you need an external recorder. Now want to re-read what you said about those things? 

12 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I expect MdB will reply next saying why you should buy a shitty EOS R instead, haha.

At least it would have log and *surprise* also look like a 1DC. 

13 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I only have one concern and that is the AF via Nikon F adapter. The native lenses are a bit boring for the price. It clearly has great video AF with those Z lenses but if it has great video AF with Nikon F lenses as well, I am sold, because I already have a bunch of those including Sigma ART.

Lolololol "I only have one concern - the complete lack of any interesting lenses to actually, you know, use on the thing"... 

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14 minutes ago, MdB said:

Oh here we go 'bro'. Clearly you're a clueless drongo and one with nothing to back up his mouth. So let's try starting here: https://www.eoshd.com/2017/08/slow-mo-shootout-camera-gives-detail-120fps/

The A99 II comes out on top. Ahead of the GH5 which is ahead of the Leica SL which is ahead of...wait for it... Your drongo noggins 1DX II. The A99 II is the same as the A7R III. The A7 III is considered to be better than the A7R III. 

That's not focus breathing. Get a clue, then come back. 

Also not breathing. 

For what? Got an example? 

*sigh* get a clue. Find an example where the A7 III is demonstrably worse than the 'top' contenders? 

Bro, I don't care about brands. Just dumb shit comments. 

Have you ever made a single post where you are not an argumentative, negative jackass? Because I have seen you on every page of every thread, trying your best to irritate anyone and everyone, while contributing nothing. You obviously have some sort of problem. I will no longer validate anything you say in the future. Someone else can fuel your irrationality if they please. 

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8 minutes ago, MdB said:

Almost looks as good as a Canon, weird praise Andrew. 

Do you want to be banned? Heading the right way.

You're an irritant.

Quote

Wait, wait, wait. Has logic totally escaped you? This is what you have to say about the EOS R (which we know deep down you love and why you keep pulling his / her hair): 

What does 10bit HDMI have anything to do with anything?

I am talking about the superb internal Nikon colour and codec.

I couldn't give a crap about hooking up an HDMI recorder just for 10bit, you can barely tell the difference in quality anyway.

I have a lot of interesting lenses to use on it. Nikon F mount ones. Sigma ones. PL. There will be adapters to all sorts.

You are a jealous Canon fanboy and an idiot of the first order.

Let's vote on it. Should MdB get the boot? He's obviously trolling now. Every day. I am sick of reading this shit and it cluttering up every thread!

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Similar sensor to the D850 and it's not a full pixel readout (of 46MP!!) I would expect rolling shutter to be fine, as it is on the D850. I rarely have an issue with it. It's not 12ms like a GH5 or Alexa but somewhere around 20ms. So not A6500 or NX1 30ms territory where it begins to be more noticeable.

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