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Andrew Reid

Nikon Z6 features 4K N-LOG, 10bit HDMI output and 120fps 1080p

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

He is a Photo guy. Industrial photography at that. Razor sharp is the hot setup for that. Video not so much. There is a reason things are a "Good Deal". No free lunch.

3 BlindMean does lots of video work and he's a good knowledgeable You Tuber.  

That 85 f1.8 will look amazing paired with the Z6 for video.  Anyone looking into this don't listen to the negative ones.

1 hour ago, Timotheus said:

Hugh Brownstone helps people wake up on the good deal that the Z system represents... Now having completed the basic trio 35-50-85/1.8, in lightweight, weather sealed, razor sharp, relatively affordable packages.

IF they also deliver on proresRaw as promised in September-ish than I suspect we will be talking about Nikon for a while.

 

Good post @Timotheus

 

This is happening in October for east coast people.

Cine Gear Expo Atlanta

http://www.cinegearexpo.com/atlanta-expo?sf199520077=1

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I have heard from a few people now that Atomos and Nikon will be using using ethernet connectivity over HDMI to transport the RAW. 

Is there a reason for that ? Has anyone confirmed or hinted that's how they are doing it ? 

HDMI 2.0 supports UHD 12-bit 4:4:4 at 30fps, which would be fine for streaming the RAW sensor values - does the HDMI spec say that it has to be a colour, viewable, image ? 

When the RAW SDI outputs are used on cameras is the output a UHD 12bit "image" formed from the sensor values ? Or is it more propriety than that ? In theory anyone could record the values and do a debayer if it is just a 12-bit stream of sensor values, and should be sort of viewable if you squint hard enough! 

I have also heard that it has to be a crop, but Nikon ( and others ) provide a scaled RAW file, in their stills side, that behaves just like a normal RAW file with a slightly lower noise floor and slightly lower dynamic range. Is there any information about this or is it just conjecture ? 

I'm trying to figure out if this is something I should be interested in or whether it's going to be hobbled. I really like the design of the Z6 and I get on much better with their menus than Panasonic and Sony.

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7 hours ago, Otago said:

I have heard from a few people now that Atomos and Nikon will be using using ethernet connectivity over HDMI to transport the RAW. 

Is there a reason for that ? Has anyone confirmed or hinted that's how they are doing it ?

What's the source for the info? Would be interesting to get more details about that. I suspect because HDMI video is YUV and so the 12bit 444 is debayered in-camera first, thus not RAW.

The RAW data can be sent over the LAN protocol of HDMI if it's fast enough for it.

And if it doesn't infringe any patents in Wild Wild West US OF A.

7 hours ago, Otago said:

HDMI 2.0 supports UHD 12-bit 4:4:4 at 30fps, which would be fine for streaming the RAW sensor values

I don't think that's how 12bit 444 works, it's not a stream of RAW sensor values, it's a processed, demosaiced image with white balance and stuff baked in.

7 hours ago, Otago said:

I have also heard that it has to be a crop, but Nikon ( and others ) provide a scaled RAW file, in their stills side, that behaves just like a normal RAW file with a slightly lower noise floor and slightly lower dynamic range. Is there any information about this or is it just conjecture ? 

Probably conjecture, but depends who the source is?

You can still do RAW from a pixel binned or downscaled sensor output. So 6K full frame on Z6 -> 4K RAW is perfectly possible.

For example - Magic Lantern manage 1080p RAW without a crop on 8 year old hardware!

7 hours ago, Otago said:

I'm trying to figure out if this is something I should be interested in or whether it's going to be hobbled. I really like the design of the Z6 and I get on much better with their menus than Panasonic and Sony.

For me I need internal raw above external.

But I would like to get what was promised, and soon.

Very curious to see what the image is like.

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7 hours ago, Otago said:

HDMI 2.0 supports UHD 12-bit 4:4:4 at 30fps, which would be fine for streaming the RAW sensor values - does the HDMI spec say that it has to be a colour, viewable, image ?

The HDMI spec has no control over whether the data it carries will be perceived as a color image by human viewers. You put HDMI formatted data in one end, and get HDMI formatted data out the other. So you're right, you can take 3 UHD 12 bit raw frames, and package them as the Y, U, V channels of a single 4:4:4 color frame. It wouldn't look right if it was plugged into a TV, but as long as the Atomos end knows what to expect, they simply need to interpret each HDMI frame as 3 Raw frames, and processes accordingly. (Apertus has been doing just that for years to get higher frame rates out of their cameras.)

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On 8/3/2019 at 12:16 AM, Andrew Reid said:

I don't think that's how 12bit 444 works, it's not a stream of RAW sensor values, it's a processed, demosaiced image with white balance and stuff baked in.

I agree, normally it's 3840x2160 values, 0000-4095 Red, 0000-4095 Green and 0000-4095 Blue for each pixel in 12 bit, being updated 30 times a second ( which always amazes me ) 

I believe 12Bit 4:4:4 YUV and RGB can be converted with no loss as there is no chroma sampling happening ( I think the 4's denote that in every 4 pixel grid there will be 4 values each for YU and V and therefore you can convert to RGB with no loss of information ) 

Looking at RAW Stills files, there is a header with some information on the camera and the bayer filter, and then an array of values with what ever bit depth the RAW is ( so for a UHD 12-bit RAW file there is a value from 0 to 4095 and there are 8.5 million of them ) When the file is debayered the header is used to say what the filter array is and we get a colour image with 3840X2160 values that are from 0 to 4095 for Red Green and Blue ( probably mapped in some weird way to a 16 Bit container, but that's beyond my understanding )

Assuming that isn't all rubbish then you could send 3840x2160 values from 0-4095 down HDMI and have your RAW data at the end, and actually could do 3 times that amount ( we are only using, for instance, the red channel here ) if you wanted to.

I too would like RAW directly in the camera, it just seems the simplest way to do things now. Why have a super complicated ASIC in my camera, which will never be updated, when I can keep upgrading graphics cards and software and get better images from my old footage ? Storage in the camera is now fast enough to do it but I suppose that's for version 6. 

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11 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

The HDMI spec has no control over whether the data it carries will be perceived as a color image by human viewers. You put HDMI formatted data in one end, and get HDMI formatted data out the other. So you're right, you can take 3 UHD 12 bit raw frames, and package them as the Y, U, V channels of a single 4:4:4 color frame. It wouldn't look right if it was plugged into a TV, but as long as the Atomos end knows what to expect, they simply need to interpret each HDMI frame as 3 Raw frames, and processes accordingly. (Apertus has been doing just that for years to get higher frame rates out of their cameras.)

Hadn't thought about putting 3 camera frames onto each HDMI frame, very clever! You could also map your tonal range to each channel and have 12288 values for each frame. Somewhere between 13 and 14 bits. 

Do you know how SDI raw is done ? I would assume they will use something similar to keep the development easier. 

I watched an interview with Jeromy Young where he said that he wasn't sure what Nikon were going to give them as a signal but I got the impression that it was more about the politics of the bit depth and resolution, and the capabilities of the camera, than the technical aspects of the HDMI stream. 

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On 8/1/2019 at 2:56 PM, Skip77 said:

For all the Z6 owners. 

How are you using the Z6? Anyone have the Ninja? 

What are the good and bad characteristics of the Z6 that you've had to deal with?

To answer your question I'm shooting internal profiles at the moment. Have not dabbled in external recorders. It's a pretty robust internal codec and I love the colors. Handling and AF has been fantastic for me. The expense of XQD cards and lack of native lenses are the biggest issues right now I think.

But I really don't care because the color is spot on with what I want it to be. Shot with Wolfcrow's settings. 

120 fps 1080p Edited
mackenzie_1.4.1.thumb.jpg.aec6507db265c1b04c6cda08134b7b3b.jpg

4K 30 fps Straight out of Camera

1627405633_dancinginthefield_1.2.2.thumb.jpg.1ae268f64432d0d8723b6ccc215886fb.jpg

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Insane Z6/7 refurb deals at B&H...

Z6 + 24-70/4, $1799 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1488631-REG/nikon_1598b_z_6_fx_camera_body.html

Z6 Body only, $1349 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1488630-REG/nikon_1595b_z_6_fx_format_mirrorless.html

Z7 Body only, $2299 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1488628-REG/nikon_1591b_z_7_fx_format_mirrorless.html

Z7 + 24-70/4, $2699 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1488629-REG/nikon_1594b_z_7_fx_camera_body.html

The first gen cams from Canon, Nikon and Panasonic are flatlining, prices are being pushed down fast.  That Z6/lens combo is so tempting....

Chris

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5 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Insane Z6/7 refurb deals at B&H...

Z6 + 24-70/4, $1799 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1488631-REG/nikon_1598b_z_6_fx_camera_body.html

Z6 Body only, $1349 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1488630-REG/nikon_1595b_z_6_fx_format_mirrorless.html

Z7 Body only, $2299 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1488628-REG/nikon_1591b_z_7_fx_format_mirrorless.html

Z7 + 24-70/4, $2699 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1488629-REG/nikon_1594b_z_7_fx_camera_body.html

The first gen cams from Canon, Nikon and Panasonic are flatlining, prices are being pushed down fast.  That Z6/lens combo is so tempting....

Chris

Get those while they last. Prices will jump when 12 bit RAW comes out.  The A9 was down to $3,500 with $1,000 discount before the new updates came out.

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48 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Get those while they last. Prices will jump when 12 bit RAW comes out.  The A9 was down to $3,500 with $1,000 discount before the new updates came out.

And how many of those A9 sold, I wonder!

There are new camera models out every couple of months, and they already do not sell that much. I predict prices to go down even further in general. X-T3 and EZ cameras and BlackMagic Pocket 4K and A7iii are setting the trends now.

of course these are refurb deals, the Z6 has 90 days warranty, which is ridiculously low.

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