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Andrew Reid

RED and Foxconn to create range of affordable 8K prosumer cinema cameras

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3 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Does anybody care, I would say that a true 4k image is already too sharp, I am distracted when things are too sharp like in the Hobbit and I don't see anybody outside of geeks interested in 4k. Most TV channel are either 720p or SD in the world and most people are not bothered at all. I myself is a bit of a image geek and cannot understand people completely satisfied with SD image,  more so beyond 4k is just ludicrous. In fact we might go completely reverse like from CD to Mp3, much to my disapointment, I see a whole generation completely growing up watching Films on Tablets or worst on phones.

There is a compelling argument that 8K is the way to go from an image standpoint. It doesn't have to be sharp. Sharpness and resolution are separate things. 

That said, I'll remain skeptical of this. I'm not sure what RED has to gain here. Keep in mind the market for cinema cameras is not the same as the market for smart phones. Most people aren't shooting video for a living, let alone cinematic movies. Saying you're going to make up for dwindling smart phones sales by making cinema cameras just seems like a strange step to take. But hey if they can give me something like a Weapon for a few grand, I'm all for it. 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

They can make it 50K but about 0.30 percent of the world would be able to actually see it. And who the hell can even broadcast 8K now. Who has a Monitor to even see it? I mean to REALLY see 8K. I can see how they could use it to edit for zooms, crops, VFX, etc, and downscale to 4k but..

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This is a conspiracy by storage makers to sell us more hard drives or other storage solutions ;)

 

11 minutes ago, roxics said:

There is a compelling argument that 8K is the way to go from an image standpoint. It doesn't have to be sharp. Sharpness and resolution are separate things. 

That said, I'll remain skeptical of this. I'm not sure what RED has to gain here. Keep in mind the market for cinema cameras is not the same as the market for smart phones. Most people aren't shooting video for a living, let alone cinematic movies. Saying you're going to make up for dwindling smart phones sales by making cinema cameras just seems like a strange step to take. But hey if they can give me something like a Weapon for a few grand, I'm all for it. 

I think Red needs to do this. You can see the writing on the wall. Sony 4k or Nikon 4k or Canon 4k small bodies, with IBIS and AF will take over the market. How long before we're talking about Sony 4k 120P? remember a 120P 4K camera can theoretically combine two images at different exposures giving you a 60P but with a Arri level of highlight rolloff.  
So the reason you see Red is doing mobile or doing a consumer-style 8K video, is because THEY HAVE TO, or they will be out of business. 

They can do a 8K consumer video camera and at the same time still do a pro-level camera with all the XLR, etc. connection. But have much higher margins on the pro camera and distribute their R&D cost with their consumer stuff. 

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I can only see it viable for advertising wall, shop window etc. Where someone can stand 1 mt from a store front etc and see the product as a photograph. If else it is a massive waste of space. 360 VR could benefit from it, but it is very restricted and never for narrative story base cinema, where story driven is based on the director showing what he wants to construct the story. If else it becomes much more like a game. Imagine if you are watching a terror movie and look at the back of the actor every-time. There would be zero suspense. 360 VR has it use but in very limited way, I remember a BBC 360 video of an Iraqi helicopter over Mosul. It was very immersive.

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I believe the fact Jim and Jarred are very silent on this one means your bet on high-end to fall down face to face with GH series 10-bit and other goodies to come and already here seems much more pretty accurate for sooner than we tend to think, hey Don @webrunner5 ? ;-)

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10 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I believe the fact Jim and Jarred are very silent on this one means your bet on high-end to fall down face to face with GH series 10-bit and other goodies to come and already here is pretty accurate for sooner than we tend to think, hey Don @webrunner5 ? ;-)

Yeah I would Hope they are smarter than I am LoL. :astonished:

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1 hour ago, roxics said:

That said, I'll remain skeptical of this. I'm not sure what RED has to gain here. Keep in mind the market for cinema cameras is not the same as the market for smart phones. Most people aren't shooting video for a living, let alone cinematic movies. Saying you're going to make up for dwindling smart phones sales by making cinema cameras just seems like a strange step to take. But hey if they can give me something like a Weapon for a few grand, I'm all for it. 

I agree with your logic 100%... But, they are also allegedly planning to expand into large screen production.  So like other display manufactures they may want to get as many high "k" shooting tools out their to drive demand for their displays.

But yeah.  The average person does not have the home setup to deal with editing 4k... let alone dealing with 8k.

If they did it at a reasonable price I would be interested.  Down sampling 8k to excellent 4k would be amazing.  We are reaching the limits of resolutions just based on the average size of people's homes.

 

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1 hour ago, roxics said:

There is a compelling argument that 8K is the way to go from an image standpoint. It doesn't have to be sharp. Sharpness and resolution are separate things...That said, I'll remain skeptical of this. I'm not sure what RED has to gain here...

Given a finite development budget, a lower-end 8K camera will have to trade off other features. Compare this 8K "affordable" prosumer camera to, say, a revised 4K Sony FS5 II, and assume they are about the same price for a "ready to use" configuration.

I think it's reasonable to expect the FS5 II may have a greatly improved EVF and LCD, improved high ISO, sensor-based stabilization, internal 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 XAVC-L codec, maybe 4k internal at 60 fps (or above), maybe even optional internal ProRes recording. It already has electronic variable ND.

Let's say the 8K RED/Foxconn camera does nice-looking 8K and has good dynamic range but isn't great at low light, has no sensor-based stabilization, and doesn't have built-in variable ND.

These are just guesses, but I think they are legitimate possibilities. As a documentary filmmaker, I know which one I'd rather use.

What about needing 8K for "professional" work?

In 2015 the Oscar for best documentary went to CITIZENFOUR by Laura Poitras. It was shot in 1080p on a Sony FS100.

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5 minutes ago, joema said:

What about needing 8K for "professional" work?

In 2015 the Oscar for best documentary went to CITIZENFOUR by Laura Poitras. It was shot in 1080p on a Sony FS100.

I think the same thing about construction workers that buy big pick up trucks.  I know a lawyer that makes more money than any construction worker I've ever met and he rides a bike to work.  Ergo no one should get a pick up truck for work.

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12 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The Hydrogen stuff is already done and in production. This is about a future tie-up they are in talks over at the moment - a completely new line of cinema cameras.


Yes, but if you've done the development around a new sensor, it makes sense to leverage that and reuse it in another product. So I'd give decent odds that could be happening?

 

12 hours ago, seku said:

this is what we already hoped for with the initial Scarlet (prosumerish device). Didn't pan out that way unfortunately ... but count me in if this happens :D

Fool us once.... fool us twice?
 

 

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Seriously... Foxconn is a shit hole that is so terrible they installed nets to keep their factory workers from killing themselves jumping out of the fucking windows and there is a discussion here on the merits of this new RED camera that will be built by those very workers? But hey its going to be cheap right?

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It'd be great for surveillance cameras - just think, you can enlarge the face of a person 1,000 yards away, no problem.:) And while there have been some smaller displays exhibited at trade shows, I think the difference can only be appreciated on screens 88" or larger. I'm guessing there are only one or two of us who can edit Red RAW natively in real time as it is. This has already been in development for at least 20 years now. I know Panasonic's planning to release an 8K camera, but it seems to me that they'd have to go with a larger sensor? Isn't the minimum something like 35 megapixels?

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16 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Have you registered 12kcameras? Now's the time

I've spent 7 years paying reg fees for 8k think that's enough speculation for now, what's scary is how fast the 7 years have gone it feels like just 6 months. 

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IHoly crap...this could be a true "Batman & Robin" dynamic duo combination. If both sides are very serious about this then they could actually be a serious threat to Panasonic, Canon and Sony.

The only BIG question is....who is going to fab their sensors? Im betting Sony would tell these guys "no".

Actually,...does anybody know who supplies RED sensors today? They have done an awesome job of hiding this so far. Is it Teledyne? Dasla?

 

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16 hours ago, Damphousse said:

We are reaching the limits of resolutions just based on the average size of people's homes.

 

I have a 48" TV 12' from the couch.  As such, I watch/rent SD movies. It's $1 cheaper and you can't really discern a huge difference between  480 SD and 8k with that sort of dimension/scale.

My setup is roughly typical of a lot of homes.

I'm all for high-res in acquisition, but it's just not something that regular people are going to clamor for in their displays; enthusiast, yes, but most people aren't terribly interested in the size-scale required to benefit from super-ultra-high-def. 

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