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Neumann Films

Adobe Rant

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On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 7:42 AM, Neumann Films said:

 Yup, spot on!! That's exactly how condescending and unhelpful Adobe support was.  Great impression man!

Well, that is nothing new. It has always been their attitude, and it also happens to be the attitude of most companies that are in the business of making profits. You not liking it does not make it any less true.

My guess is that Adobe did not commit resources to the project until the camera was actually released, since they did not want to be developing solutions for firmware that could change. It is a sensible way of doing business. Sucks for you as a first adopter, but that is the nature of the beast. Professionals for who time is money buy gear that is tried and tested and that they know will work, so they will wait for any bugs to be worked out before making the commitment to use that equipment. The latest and greatest gear is for enthusiasts who don't mind being the guinea pigs because it is not going to cost them money being such. Surely you know that by now?

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
7 minutes ago, Geoff CB said:

But it also doesn't support H265 in the free version either, also the free version does support projects up to UHD.

Up to now I could use DCI 4K and UHD in the free version (e.g. on a laptop in a train when I didn't have the dongle with me).

e.g. to dynamically crop and punch in to add perfect 1080p camera movements for stage performances shot in 4K in post.

Just not output in that resolution.

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1 hour ago, tugela said:

Well, that is nothing new. It has always been their attitude, and it also happens to be the attitude of most companies that are in the business of making profits. You not liking it does not make it any less true.

My guess is that Adobe did not commit resources to the project until the camera was actually released, since they did not want to be developing solutions for firmware that could change. It is a sensible way of doing business. Sucks for you as a first adopter, but that is the nature of the beast. Professionals for who time is money buy gear that is tried and tested and that they know will work, so they will wait for any bugs to be worked out before making the commitment to use that equipment. The latest and greatest gear is for enthusiasts who don't mind being the guinea pigs because it is not going to cost them money being such. Surely you know that by now?

Surely you read the part of my post where I clarified that it didn't bother me until the 2-3 week update that made things worse? Everything up until that point was annoying but understandable.  The overall customer service is below par and that is something I will stand behind.  Its also something that factors into this.  Also, enough customers agreeing and not liking it DOES help make it become less true.  Trust me.  

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On 23.4.2017 at 8:01 AM, Neumann Films said:

 

Have any of you ever browsed the Adobe forums?  Are ANY of the questions "answered"?  It's like in the US "Office" when Toby from HR reveals that all of the complaints get filed in a big pile and the point of it all is just for people to have a place to vent.  Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck that.  Fuck that, indeed.

 

All right, back to individually transcoding each clip in Rocky Mountain Movie Converter (...you read that correctly).

 

Oh, cool, you´re using Rocky Mountain Movie Converter. I also like that tool. Now it seems even more legit, since you are using it!

Please forgive my little joke, I really appreciate and like your contributions and insights to video pros and nerds and dreamers!!

cheers :)

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The way it always worked at Apple was that the engineers were always tasked with what I call new software bling (new cool features) those always had to work out of the box.  Bugs always took a back seat, even though that had already been around for a while.  It could easily be end of the year before any of this gets fixed.

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Had many failed attempts to log in so that I can say one thing, FUCK ADOBE!  My timelines constantly crash and do not play.  A lot of times I have to revert to CS6 using XMLs.  This issue always has to do with using nested sequences.  I tried getting help from their customer support and forum but after a few days, I gave up.  Also, LIGHTROOM!  WTF!  It takes what seems like forever to render an image to begin to edit.  When I edit in Bridge, it renders pretty quickly.  I have tried modifying preferences and import settings and nothing resolves lag issues.   

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23 minutes ago, Brett Munoz said:

Had many failed attempts to log in so that I can say one thing, FUCK ADOBE!  My timelines constantly crash and do not play.  A lot of times I have to revert to CS6 using XMLs.  This issue always has to do with using nested sequences.  I tried getting help from their customer support and forum but after a few days, I gave up.  Also, LIGHTROOM!  WTF!  It takes what seems like forever to render an image to begin to edit.  When I edit in Bridge, it renders pretty quickly.  I have tried modifying preferences and import settings and nothing resolves lag issues.   

I was working on a documentary that had a metric ton of nested sequences. Constantly crashing about halfway through. Contacted adobe and they suggested that I use less of them...I was halfway through.

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@Neumann Films I spent over $5K on a new computer to edit C300 II 4K footage smoothly in PP CC. I knew back then (December) that the 'old' 2010 12-Core Mac Pro with GTX 980ti was more than powerful enough (way more than powerful enough) to easily edit multiple 4K streams in real-time, let alone just one. I knew it was Adobe's software holding back performance since FCPX ran rings around PP CC for 4K footage in real-time on the same hardware. Now four months later, PP CC can edit 1-2 4K streams well enough that the new machine purchase could have been avoided, saving $5+K. The new machine is still useful, as it is much faster, however it's no longer required to do basic 4K edits.

The latest release may have also increased rendering export speed (didn't notice until recently, 2x real-time 1080p on the old machine). It also looks like they may have improved Ultra Key (fine hair detail seems to look better).

@SuperSet since the GH5 footage edits fine when rewrapped into MXF (don't transcode! waste of time and quality loss; solution posted on this site for PC users), the GH5 fix for Adobe is trivial as far as code changes. However, the QA process takes a long time for something as big, monolithic, and ancient as Adobe's code base. I've done everything in software from development to executive management. It's absolutely not up to developers what gets done. It's up to executive management (who are typically given filtered info from middle management). Unless the executives are code-savvy and technical (surprisingly rare in tech companies, believe it or not), getting things fixed and the right features added is sometimes very difficult for large companies. What other large company is doing better? Apple? Microsoft? Google's software is terrible, lol, not even a contender. Why? Internal politics and they are making so much money from Big Data sales it doesn't really matter.

I too used to get into a 'rant state' with software vendors (probably the most with Microsoft in the past), now I just figure out (and share) solutions to work around the issues since there really aren't any other options.

Adobe's code base is so old it's very hard to work on it. They really need an all-new ground up rewrite (as was done with FCPX). The challenges are many. First, great software architects are very few. Most of them aren't working for big companies, being smart enough to know they can make way more money in a startup (of which they are part or sole owner). Only when there's a truly drop-in replacement which can compete with Premiere will Adobe be forced to make big changes due to lost revenue.  Resolve could do that someday, but they are currently far away in performance let alone feature parity. FCPX on OSX is decent, but still a ways off in features (especially color grading without add-ons; even so still prefer Lumetri in PP CC).

For now, use the MXF rewrap tools for GH5 footage- no loss in quality and as fast as a file copy. The issue is with Adobe's format importer. The MXF code path can handle the GH5's (industry standard, nothing new here) 10-bit H.264 (the MP4/MOV importer code path cannot; probably a simple 'one-liner' code change to fix it by the way (perhaps as simple as a switch to handle the FOURCC format type for the video stream). It might even be possible to drop on the appropriate DLL (and perhaps a config file) from the prior release to fix it...

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4 hours ago, marcuswolschon said:

It would force you to aquire in 8bit in the first place and you can't make the decision to buy the studio version later and then take advantage of the 10bit 4K footage you had aquired back then.

It would force you to transcode to 8-bit, with the ability to re-link to the original 10-bit footage if you decide. Alternately, you could transcode to a different codec that the free version does support.

A minor inconvenience that can be avoided pretty easily... it's not all that long ago that Standalone NLEs cost $2k+ and Resolve cost $10k+

$300 is pretty damn cheap.

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21 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

I dunno...Adobe may have lost a customer today and Black Magic might have gained one.  Final straw for me.  This is not the first headache I have received from Adobe and I'm tired of the Creative Cloud thing. Over it.

Just tried Resolve 14 beta. Looking better in terms of UI and flow. However it's much slower than PP CC and FCPX with 4K C300 II and 1DX II footage (choppy non-real-time playback with one video track and no effects, constant audio drop out, didn't render waveforms in Fairlight etc. (still beta)). Interesting to note CPU usage was almost nil, however the GTX 980ti has enough RAM and cores to easily handle multiple streams of 4K- so some optimization needed there (tried both CUDA and OpenCL). And it also doesn't load the GH5 video track either; not just an Adobe issue. I predict you won't bail on PP CC just yet. I agree Adobe's subscription model hasn't been worth it value-for-performance-reliability, however until Resolve catches up for even basic editing, there's not many viable options beyond maybe FCPX on OSX (and not an option for folks who don't want to use Macs or Hackintoshs). I'm getting decent performance from the latest PP CC release, and so far no annoying crashes, so maybe they are making slow progress in the right direction (they'll fix the GH5 issue; it's trivial, only a matter of QA, testing, etc., which unfortunately takes more time than it should. Too bad they can't offer a hot fix for just GH5 users (reduces QA liability if they break something else for other users)).

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19 minutes ago, jcs said:

Just tried Resolve 14 beta. Looking better in terms of UI and flow. However it's much slower than PP CC and FCPX with 4K C300 II and 1DX II footage (choppy non-real-time playback with one video track and no effects, constant audio drop out, didn't render waveforms in Fairlight etc. (still beta)). Interesting to note CPU usage was almost nil, however the GTX 980ti has enough RAM and cores to easily handle multiple streams of 4K- so some optimization needed there (tried both CUDA and OpenCL). And it also doesn't load the GH5 video track either; not just an Adobe issue. I predict you won't bail on PP CC just yet. I agree Adobe's subscription model hasn't been worth it value-for-performance-reliability, however until Resolve catches up for even basic editing, there's not many viable options beyond maybe FCPX on OSX (and not an option for folks who don't want to use Macs or Hackintoshs). I'm getting decent performance from the latest PP CC release, and so far no annoying crashes, so maybe they are making slow progress in the right direction (they'll fix the GH5 issue; it's trivial, only a matter of QA, testing, etc., which unfortunately takes more time than it should. Too bad they can't offer a hot fix for just GH5 users (reduces QA liability if they break something else for other users)).

It's definitely not just the GH5 issue alone that is driving me away.  Everything from bad cache managment to the Adjustment Layer integration (which seems like it was made by a 3 year old).  Removing H.264 export from AE, trying to tie all of the products together by removing features (essentially forcing people to get the whole CC subscription).  It's just not great.

I love Audition for audio and AE is my preferred heavy lifter for grading (aside from no H.264).

Add to that the snail like pace for support, the ghost town of a forum, and the fact that I'm paying them every month for a bunch of software I don't want or use just to get the ones that I do...

I could go on, lol.  I haven't been a fan lately.

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Basically what we Samsung NX1 users had to do, proxy proxy proxy everytime. 
Adobe however has completely abandon colour grading though, I am looking for good alternatives with just as powerful editing capability as Premiere Pro, anyone know? 
Of course I do not pay Adobe a damn SHAIT since they just gave the finger to those of us who bought CS6 Ultimate Collection which cost me a lot of money back in the day.

I heard of Resolve but is it as powerful an editor as Premiere Pro? 

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1 minute ago, SMGJohn said:

proxy proxy proxy everytime.

I do this.  It takes hardly any time and makes the editing so much breezier.  I've also served proxy files over LAN wi-fi and had it work.  That's pretty handy when you need two edits of the same footage going at once.

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16 minutes ago, SMGJohn said:

Basically what we Samsung NX1 users had to do, proxy proxy proxy everytime. 
Adobe however has completely abandon colour grading though, I am looking for good alternatives with just as powerful editing capability as Premiere Pro, anyone know? 
Of course I do not pay Adobe a damn SHAIT since they just gave the finger to those of us who bought CS6 Ultimate Collection which cost me a lot of money back in the day.

I heard of Resolve but is it as powerful an editor as Premiere Pro? 

Yes it's a great editor, especially with the latest update. 

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Lightroom: total nightmare. Honestly I've not experienced anything so slow since trying to use corel draw on a 386 laptop 25 years ago. 

Premiere: the most stable its ever been for me.  Hardly ever crashes handles the vast majority of shit I throw at it (lots of shit: backwards clips, mixed 4K and 1080, mixed codecs, 3 adjustment layers with lumetri and different blend modes, several lumetri adjustments with masks on a clip...)

If i could find something that processes raws like camera raw I'd at least look hard at resolve. Having said that I want adobe to succeed (loyalty that comes from 27 years of using photoshop). 

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4 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

It's definitely not just the GH5 issue alone that is driving me away.  Everything from bad cache managment to the Adjustment Layer integration (which seems like it was made by a 3 year old).  Removing H.264 export from AE, trying to tie all of the products together by removing features (essentially forcing people to get the whole CC subscription).  It's just not great.

I love Audition for audio and AE is my preferred heavy lifter for grading (aside from no H.264).

Add to that the snail like pace for support, the ghost town of a forum, and the fact that I'm paying them every month for a bunch of software I don't want or use just to get the ones that I do...

I could go on, lol.  I haven't been a fan lately.

Back in December when I had to shell out cash to build a new machine to handle 4K I was in the same boat- really disappointed that the software was so slow and buggy. I slowly learned what made it crash (such as using Matte Soften in Ultra Key!), and they've slowly fixed it. I haven't gotten any nesting crashes lately, though sometimes I need to restart due to nesting bugs. Fortunately a restart fixes the bugs so far. I use Audition too, and also use Logic and Reaper (used to use SoundForge on Windows, and Pro tools long ago on OSX). For low-level waveform editing, what can Audition be replaced with? (don't say Audacity lol; not going back to Pro tools). What to replace Photoshop with? Especially what you can do with Camera Raw (I use it heavily for raw stills and also as a filter)? AE gets used from time to time too. Kinda hard to 100% bail on Adobe subscription until there are more options for replacement apps.

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