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GH5 10-bit 4:2:2 internal?

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1 hour ago, zetty said:

 

While I agree completely about the resolution, isn't motion entirely dependent on the framerate and shutter speed? What else there is to "get it right"?

24fps is just naturally very limiting in what kind of motion can you do..

Amount of rolling shutter, quality of interframe compression (or lack of ideally).  They effect the perception of motion in video.

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1 hour ago, MattH said:

Amount of rolling shutter, quality of interframe compression (or lack of ideally).  They effect the perception of motion in video.

There are other factors too, like "penumbral sweep" that affect motion rendering characteristics:

http://nofilmschool.com/2010/09/the-red-report-adam-wilt-on-epic-hdr-and-the-future-of-cinemaphotography

http://nofilmschool.com/2011/06/tessives-time-filter-brings-films-dreamy

 

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2 hours ago, tugela said:

Horizontal resolution does not need to match vertical resolution. Remember in the old days we used to have non square pixels that were converted on display. Something similar could be done in camera to account for aspect differences.

Yeah I get your point, like 1440x1080 gets streched to 1920 after import from mini dv tape.

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3 hours ago, tugela said:

"Motion" is the new buzzword for that unquantifiable quality that makes a less sophisticated but more fashionable camera "superior". We have seen the same nonsense in the past about frame rates, bit depth, color, dynamic range, "filmic" (whatever the hell that means - it seems to change year by year). Basically it is a psychological tool to use when demonstrating one's own superiority over peers, they are lesser because they "just don't get it".

Perfect Example.........

 

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Does make you kinda laugh how many eat up the ridiculous rumours 

I'm yet to see a rumours site get a major announcement totally correct (cue all the links and examples of the times a rumours site got it 'totally 100% right'). If anything, they're almost always wrong on the video spec.

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29 minutes ago, jax_rox said:

Does make you kinda laugh how many eat up the ridiculous rumours 

I'm yet to see a rumours site get a major announcement totally correct (cue all the links and examples of the times a rumours site got it 'totally 100% right'). If anything, they're almost always wrong on the video spec.

You're really doubling down on no 4K 10 bit, huh.

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Ok, so assuming all these rumors are true along with the usual bump in ISO and DR performance to be expect from one generation to the next (1/2 stop at most). Do you think it would be a better camera for video than the a7sii?

And if so, what rumored feature would have to be absent for the a7sii to beat it.

 

Also for simplicity sake lets leave price and the overheating issues of the sony out of this comparison.

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I knew I had heard of something like this before:  http://www.43rumors.com/the-panasonic-gh5-rumor/

Back in March, this rumor said something very similar to the rumor that was released today:

– 6k recording at 30fps and 4K at 60fps
– Each 6K frame has 18 Million Pixels. this means you can screen grab 18MP photos from each 6K recorded frame
– If the camera records 6K than the Four Thirds sensor will have 20+ Megapixels in “normal still photo mode”

But at the same time, a few months later, in June, two new rumors denied that and stated that it would be the same sensor as the GX80:

http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-panasonic-gh5-will-have-same-gx80-sensor-but-better-performance/

http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-panasonic-gh5/

The announcement should be soon but rumors and still just rumors. Sure, the proximity to the announcement makes the latest rumor more likely despite being debunked in the past once but it can still be denied again until the actual announcement.

As long as at least 8-bit 422 is true it's all good, even better if it's 10-bit 422. I just want 422, IBIS and 1080p 120fps.

4K 60fps, no extra crop, multi aspect sensor and 1.86x crop, 6K Photo, etc. that's all bonus for me.

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1 hour ago, Chrad said:

You're really doubling down on no 4K 10 bit, huh.

It just doesn't make business sense. We saw the 5DIV rumours, which were already watered down specs, that ended up being even more watered down in the actual product.

Sony had all sorts of rumours flying around prior to the A7r/sII releases, and there's been 'rumours' about an 'imminent' a9 release almost since the a7 came out.

Rumours are just that until the camera comes out - and the camera is almost always not as good as the rumours suggest. And even on the rare occasion that it defies expectation, the rumours still aren't correct.

Too many people get bogged down in their 'hopeful' and 'ideal' cameras and try and find ways to justify the reason that it 'definitely will' happen, rather than thinking of these companies as businesses.

But hey, I'll happily eat my proverbial hat if it does, in fact, happen.

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13 minutes ago, jax_rox said:

It just doesn't make business sense. We saw the 5DIV rumours, which were already watered down specs, that ended up being even more watered down in the actual product.

Sony had all sorts of rumours flying around prior to the A7r/sII releases, and there's been 'rumours' about an 'imminent' a9 release almost since the a7 came out.

Rumours are just that until the camera comes out - and the camera is almost always not as good as the rumours suggest. And even on the rare occasion that it defies expectation, the rumours still aren't correct.

Too many people get bogged down in their 'hopeful' and 'ideal' cameras and try and find ways to justify the reason that it 'definitely will' happen, rather than thinking of these companies as businesses.

But hey, I'll happily eat my proverbial hat if it does, in fact, happen.

I can see it happening because Panasonic are at a turning point with M43 - Sony's full frame efforts have narrowed the size advantage and present a viable threat in video quality, so they need to do something drastic to stay in the high end ILC game. Without a feature like this, GH5 is going to be an also-ran. There is pressure to put out a product that makes similar waves as the GH4. 
And as has been said, they have no higher tier product to protect. 

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23 minutes ago, jax_rox said:

It just doesn't make business sense. We saw the 5DIV rumours, which were already watered down specs, that ended up being even more watered down in the actual product.

Sony had all sorts of rumours flying around prior to the A7r/sII releases, and there's been 'rumours' about an 'imminent' a9 release almost since the a7 came out.

Rumours are just that until the camera comes out - and the camera is almost always not as good as the rumours suggest. And even on the rare occasion that it defies expectation, the rumours still aren't correct.

Too many people get bogged down in their 'hopeful' and 'ideal' cameras and try and find ways to justify the reason that it 'definitely will' happen, rather than thinking of these companies as businesses.

But hey, I'll happily eat my proverbial hat if it does, in fact, happen.

Rumors are just that and most people are sure aware of that, but I can't agree with the rest.

It actually makes a lot of business sense for Panasonic, plus Panasonic's situation is quite a lot different from Canon and even Sony.

Panasonic doesn't have any sort of AF100 successor or anything like Sony or Canon do - FS5, FS7, C100, C300, C500, etc. So they don't have to worry so much about protecting that market and that way they can provide way more things that Canon or Sony would ever do. Despite everything and the lack of effort in innovating, Canon still has a comfortable margin in the market, Sony is growing and is still bigger than Panasonic in market share. So the one that has to take more shots and risks in no other than Panasonic. Oh, and Fuji is sneaking into video market as well and they have nothing to lose, they truly can go all-in.

A lot of Micro4/3 users become very tempted by bigger sensors so it's almost like Panasonic already starts in an disadvantage. Providing 4:2:2 internally, which is something Sony won't do anytime soon, is a way to get an edge over Sony, which is their main competitors in this market. Even if it's "just" 8-bit 422, it's something that Sony wouldn't do.

Canon did that but with the 500mbps MJPEG that not only has massive files but it still requires transcoding, which makes me wonder what's the point. Panasonic has a lot of different alternatives. 8-bit 422 would still work with H.264 and U3 cards, 10-bit 422 would probably either require faster cards or H.265 HEVC codec. So at least I'm sure Panasonic wouldn't choose MJPEG.

If you can get an edge over your competitors without sacrificing much, even more knowing that they might not be able to respond with the same features, this is a pretty good strategy.

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1 hour ago, Chrad said:

I can see it happening because Panasonic are at a turning point with M43 - Sony's full frame efforts have narrowed the size advantage and present a viable threat in video quality, so they need to do something drastic to stay in the high end ILC game. Without a feature like this, GH5 is going to be an also-ran. There is pressure to put out a product that makes similar waves as the GH4. 
And as has been said, they have no higher tier product to protect. 

Sony's camera bodies are also priced much higher than the GH4. The GH4's release RRP was the same as the A7II's release RRP. You're talking Panasonic's top of the line, versus Sony's middle of the line. The GH4 is half the price of an A7rII or A7sII.

So given that essentially the GH4 is competing with the A7II, it only really needs to beat that and it will sell. It doesn't need to do anything, particularly something as 'drastic' as that, to stay in the game. If you consider the A7rII and A7sII to be high-end ILC game, Panasonic aren't competing there. They have neither the sensor size, resolution, low-light ability etc. to be able to compete at that level. But they can compete in the mid-range level a la A7II.

I would suggest you'll get significantly improved low-light ability before you'll get 4k 4:2:2 10-bit. Maybe 4:2:2 8-bit, even 10-bit 1080p, but I just can't see it going full 10-bit in the GH5.

Sure, right now they have no higher tier product to protect, but that's only thinking short term, and again these people are running a business and in business, you make long-term decisions for long-term sales. 

There may not be a product on the market right now to compete with an FS5/FS7/C300 etc. but unless anyone here works at Panasonic, no-one knows what may be in the pipeline.

If there is an AF100 successor in the pipeline at any stage of development, it will have to sit between the VaricamLT and the GH5, and those decisions are made now. And if Panasonic can do 10-bit 4k internally in the GH5, and still make a profit margin with it priced at $1600 - why would they put that in a camera whose market is largely stills shooters, when they can put it into a $5k camera aimed at video shooters and make significantly more money?

Again, happy to be proven wrong, and more than happy to put an edible hat on the line. But I just don't see it happening.

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GH4 is competing with A7sII and A7rII, in the sense that they are taking market share that might have gone to the GH4. GH4 got a big boost by being the first on the market with 4K. It doesn't matter that it's half the price, it was the only option, so it was adopted for a lot of higher end uses. 
Panasonic need to convince video users that it's worth staying with the M4/3 system rather than ponying up the extra cash and switching.

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2 hours ago, jax_rox said:

Sony's camera bodies are also priced much higher than the GH4. The GH4's release RRP was the same as the A7II's release RRP. You're talking Panasonic's top of the line, versus Sony's middle of the line. The GH4 is half the price of an A7rII or A7sII.

So given that essentially the GH4 is competing with the A7II, it only really needs to beat that and it will sell. It doesn't need to do anything, particularly something as 'drastic' as that, to stay in the game. If you consider the A7rII and A7sII to be high-end ILC game, Panasonic aren't competing there. They have neither the sensor size, resolution, low-light ability etc. to be able to compete at that level. But they can compete in the mid-range level a la A7II.

I would suggest you'll get significantly improved low-light ability before you'll get 4k 4:2:2 10-bit. Maybe 4:2:2 8-bit, even 10-bit 1080p, but I just can't see it going full 10-bit in the GH5.

Sure, right now they have no higher tier product to protect, but that's only thinking short term, and again these people are running a business and in business, you make long-term decisions for long-term sales. 

There may not be a product on the market right now to compete with an FS5/FS7/C300 etc. but unless anyone here works at Panasonic, no-one knows what may be in the pipeline.

If there is an AF100 successor in the pipeline at any stage of development, it will have to sit between the VaricamLT and the GH5, and those decisions are made now. And if Panasonic can do 10-bit 4k internally in the GH5, and still make a profit margin with it priced at $1600 - why would they put that in a camera whose market is largely stills shooters, when they can put it into a $5k camera aimed at video shooters and make significantly more money?

Again, happy to be proven wrong, and more than happy to put an edible hat on the line. But I just don't see it happening.

Panasonic competes with Sony on video only.  For stills, Sony cameras are in a different league.  For me, this needs to be factored into the price since with Panasonic, I need to also commit funds to a stills outfit.

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10 hours ago, tugela said:

"Motion" is the new buzzword for that unquantifiable quality that makes a less sophisticated but more fashionable camera "superior". We have seen the same nonsense in the past about frame rates, bit depth, color, dynamic range, "filmic" (whatever the hell that means - it seems to change year by year). Basically it is a psychological tool to use when demonstrating one's own superiority over peers, they are lesser because they "just don't get it".

If you think Dynamic Range is nonsense and you can't see the difference between your nx1 and your phone, then no, you don't get it.

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