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wolf33d

5DIV full spec and full image leak

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43 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

Yeah, it's the mystic and infamous 'motion cadence' (look it up). There's a lot of discussions out there. It's like conspiracy theories (aliens or what have you) or even religion. There's no real hard evidence of it, but people feel there's something to it and believe it's out there.

I think there's more to it than just a camera. I think in certain conditions it might be more prone to show, but I'm also one to think there's something to it. Especially with CCD sensors or thick datastreams of information motion seems to be recorded a little nicer. Is there scientific hard evidence? I didn't really see any. Could it just be a placebo-kinda-thingie? Someone says they see it and you suddenly start to see it, although in all actuality it isn't there? Who knows, really. But it makes for an interesting topic of discussion, if anything. :grin:

I think the mythical "motion cadence", separated from rolling shutter, is down to how different codecs and cameras compress motion and how that affects motion blur. Pretty much without exception people pick RAW cameras as ones that have best motion cadence - because there's no compression or artifacting affecting the motion. Then after that come the cameras that do Prores or other flavours of high bitrate codecs, and dead last are the ones that compress the image to ludicrous degrees with interframe codecs such as Sony cameras or GH4.

The best motion comes from a camera with a fast sensor readout and high bitrate compression or RAW. Imho that's all the magic there is to it.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
18 minutes ago, Ehetyz said:

I think the mythical "motion cadence", separated from rolling shutter, is down to how different codecs and cameras compress motion and how that affects motion blur. Pretty much without exception people pick RAW cameras as ones that have best motion cadence - because there's no compression or artifacting affecting the motion. Then after that come the cameras that do Prores or other flavours of high bitrate codecs, and dead last are the ones that compress the image to ludicrous degrees with interframe codecs such as Sony cameras or GH4.

The best motion comes from a camera with a fast sensor readout and high bitrate compression or RAW. Imho that's all the magic there is to it.

I think there might be some truth to this -IMHO the best motion (and colour) is the global shutter in the Digital Bolex

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On 21. 8. 2016 at 3:46 PM, mercer said:

My first HD camera was a Panasonic point & shoot back in 2009 and it shot 1080p MJPEG and I still quite like the motion cadence from it. But yeah it is a prehistoric codec, but then again if it works...

TZ5 or LX3? I had TZ5 - CCD sensor (720p).

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24 minutes ago, bamigoreng said:

TZ5 or LX3? I had TZ5 - CCD sensor (720p).

I had the FX150. I really liked that little cam, gorgeous black and white. I didn't think of it, but yeah I guess the CCD could have attributed to it as well. 

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On 8/18/2016 at 1:02 PM, jonpais said:

I'm not clairvoyant, so I can't say what would have become of Samsung's camera if it didn't sport H265, but soon it will be standard on all 4K cameras, it isn't just 'some new tech trend' that will come and go. Samsung were ahead of their time. Intel's latest processor, Kaby Lake, will support hardware accelerated HEVC.

I get what you are saying, and I think you are right. But as a working professional I am much more interested in having a camera that I know is going to be supported by the manufacturer, and that is just going to work. Canon seems to be much more concerned about having well built, well rounded, fully functional cameras even at the expense of not pushing the specs forward to what the competition is offering. And they are right to do so, because there is a market for that.

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8 minutes ago, Jesse Korgemaa said:

I get what you are saying, and I think you are right. But as a working professional I am much more interested in having a camera that I know is going to be supported by the manufacturer, and that is just going to work. Canon seems to be much more concerned about having well built, well rounded, fully functional cameras even at the expense of not pushing the specs forward to what the competition is offering. And they are right to do so, because there is a market for that.

Use only proven spec to ensure cameras work well is one thing. Cripple a 3500$ camera just to protect your 10k$ one is another.

Why not adding C-Log for example? Is that something that will put in danger the 5D reliability....?

stop defending Canon when they do shit. 

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On 21 Aug 2016 at 9:33 PM, wolf33d said:

What I don't understand though is why Nikon who does not have an EOS Cinema line to protect does not push great video features. Imagine a D750 with full video capability (FF 4K with Nikon flat profile,...) 

Nikon are slowly getting there... D5/D500 both released this year have 4K / Flat profile. D750 also introduced zebras. All that's really missing is peaking and stronger codec options.. the DR though is impressive for 8-bit DSLR..

But speaking of motion cadence, I really hated it on the D750. Lots of juddering on pans too (as with 5D3). Black Magic Raw/Prores, excellent motion. Strangely enough, I'm ok with my C100 's motion cadence even though it uses a shitty 24 mbps AVCHD codec. It has it's flaws but motion cadence i find is really good. Really don't know how they did it. So still kind of a mystery to me what science gives good/bad motion cadence.. 

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4 hours ago, Django said:

Nikon are slowly getting there... D5/D500 both released this year have 4K / Flat profile. D750 also introduced zebras. All that's really missing is peaking and stronger codec options.. the DR though is impressive for 8-bit DSLR..

Yes but it is not enough. And not some more things are missing like proper AF like Sony A6300 AF for exemple or just a FF body mirrorless. 
Also what has been done in the D5 is not great. Huge crop.... 

Sony can do good spec but they dont have the experience of canikon (parc of lenses, good ergonomics and color science,...). We know why Canon doesnt do it (market protection) but Nikon.... They could have become the new video DSLR player like Canon did with the 5D2. 
Now if tomorrow Nikon releases a D820 with same specs as A7RII (FF 4k + S35K full read out, decent AF, 42mpx,...) except it obviously gets Nikon ergonomics, Nikon lenses, Nikon sensor processing (colours and better DR) then it is an instant buy for me. 

They will release this camera except it wont have FF 4k (just cropped), wont have good video AF and wont have tilt screen (thats for the D7xx). 
Canon we have to wait 5 years before seeing something.
Panasonic we will have a good video GH5 but wont work for me with stills. 
We are left with Sony. Hopefully they release a A9 but it will cost an arm just as their lenses. 

Well, looks like I will have to wait some more years before having finally a good FF still/video camera.

 

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1 hour ago, wolf33d said:

Yes but it is not enough. And not some more things are missing like proper AF like Sony A6300 AF for exemple or just a FF body mirrorless. 
Also what has been done in the D5 is not great. Huge crop.... 

Sony can do good spec but they dont have the experience of canikon (parc of lenses, good ergonomics and color science,...). We know why Canon doesnt do it (market protection) but Nikon.... They could have become the new video DSLR player like Canon did with the 5D2. 
Now if tomorrow Nikon releases a D820 with same specs as A7RII (FF 4k + S35K full read out, decent AF, 42mpx,...) except it obviously gets Nikon ergonomics, Nikon lenses, Nikon sensor processing (colours and better DR) then it is an instant buy for me. 

They will release this camera except it wont have FF 4k (just cropped), wont have good video AF and wont have tilt screen (thats for the D7xx). 
Canon we have to wait 5 years before seeing something.
Panasonic we will have a good video GH5 but wont work for me with stills. 
We are left with Sony. Hopefully they release a A9 but it will cost an arm just as their lenses. 

Well, looks like I will have to wait some more years before having finally a good FF still/video camera.

 

I agree, Nikon could but probably won't release that type of camera...yet.. They just seem to move in baby steps in the video dept.. even if they're headed in right direction.

Best chance this year for FF full read out 4K with assist features,log & good AF is still from Sony.. A7S/R3 / A9. Native lens choice may be poor/expensive, but with adapters and speed boosters the lens choice becomes almost infinite if you don't mind MF / average AF.. Kinda makes up a bit for color science imo.. Ergonomics wise I'm still not ready to ditch DSLR for still photography (5D3 still king with it's button placements, customisation and AF point joystick control..  and with touch screen & DPAF will finally get Live View put to good use on 5D4) but for certain types of video needs like low-light events, i found the A7SII a joy to shoot through the EVF. But yeah, there is no perfect still/video camera in sight yet, always compromises it seems..

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1 hour ago, Django said:

I agree, Nikon could but probably won't release that type of camera...yet.. They just seem to move in baby steps in the video dept.. even if they're headed in right direction.

 

Yes and by the way: http://www.lesnumeriques.com/photo/salon-photo-nikon-ne-interdit-rien-mais-reste-prudent-n46921.html

Basically the President of Nikon France saying last year that the 1 series was a mistake (and apparently it is rumoured to be stopped now), but more importantly that they are working on mirrorless stuff and that "for video we do not have a huge past so it is more difficult for us than some other brands that had video departments in the past but from now on, when we develop a new camera we think PHOTO and VIDEO." 

That's awesome. D500/D5 are anyway not the type of cameras that would attract video users. They are made for sport, birds, etc. 
So I am curious to see in next Nikon mirrorless and D820/760 if we get exciting video things. 

 

As from what you said indeed Sony is the only one providing good stills/video cameras at the moment but I can't live with speedboosters and so on. Not to mention the ergonomics and other shits. I bought an A7RII by the way that I used for this video below. But I sold it right after. Horrible to use and too expensive system (body more expensive than a 5DIV, lenses crazy expensive...) 

 

 

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3 hours ago, wolf33d said:

That's awesome. D500/D5 are anyway not the type of cameras that would attract video users. They are made for sport, birds, etc. 

People think the D500 is just for sports/birds, but it also has been argued the D500 is the best ever general purpose (especially for DX) camera Nikon has ever made. 

I want one!!! I don't even shoot birds or sports (well... I photographed a rugby match the other weekend just for a laugh). 

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13 hours ago, Django said:

Nikon are slowly getting there... D5/D500 both released this year have 4K / Flat profile. D750 also introduced zebras. All that's really missing is peaking and stronger codec options.. the DR though is impressive for 8-bit DSLR..

Well,you do have the choice to output 4K video to external recorders on nikon cameras to bypass the weak codec ,but you can not  do the same thing on 5DIV for sure,not to mention the  4K monitoring. 

 

9 hours ago, wolf33d said:

Now if tomorrow Nikon releases a D820 with same specs as A7RII (FF 4k + S35K full read out, decent AF, 42mpx,...) except it obviously gets Nikon ergonomics, Nikon lenses, Nikon sensor processing (colours and better DR) then it is an instant buy for me. 

Sadly it won't be happen,because sony never gives nikon those PDAF sensor,did you see the D5XXX and D3XXX series were updated many times but no single one of they  using PDAF sensors,considing sony have been using  PDAF sensors sine 2013 (like NEX5R\A6000),not even D750 gets the chance to using one,I am guessing this should be a market protection 

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16 hours ago, wolf33d said:

Use only proven spec to ensure cameras work well is one thing. Cripple a 3500$ camera just to protect your 10k$ one is another.

Why not adding C-Log for example? Is that something that will put in danger the 5D reliability....?

stop defending Canon when they do shit. 

Do think that's the whole story? It doesn't all add up because Nikon doesn't have C-log as well and they don't have anything to protect. If it was just to protect their 10k$ camera then what is Nikon protecting? 

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^ Nikon provides a flat profile on their latest cameras. 

2 hours ago, gelaxstudio said:

Well,you do have the choice to output 4K video to external recorders on nikon cameras to bypass the weak codec ,but you can not  do the same thing on 5DIV for sure,not to mention the  4K monitoring. 

 

Sadly it won't be happen,because sony never gives nikon those PDAF sensor,did you see the D5XXX and D3XXX series were updated many times but no single one of they  using PDAF sensors,considing sony have been using  PDAF sensors sine 2013 (like NEX5R\A6000),not even D750 gets the chance to using one,I am guessing this should be a market protection 

Yeah 4K HDMI out is nice.. but there are other cons with Nikons.. no DCI 4K.. heavy crop.. strong rolling shutter.. etc

As for Nikon & PDAF, Sony has got nothing to do with that. D5/D500 don't even use Sony sensors! Nikon just seems very content with their AF module system. Perhaps with Canon pushing the envelope with dual pixel, Nikon will react.. but for now Canon really seems to be ahead of everyone with their DPAF tech.

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5 hours ago, gelaxstudio said:

Well,you do have the choice to output 4K video to external recorders on nikon cameras to bypass the weak codec ,but you can not  do the same thing on 5DIV for sure,not to mention the  4K monitoring.

A lot of people believe this, sadly it isn't true.

90% of the compression is done BEFORE the codec stage.

You have the 12bit or 14bit raw sensor data, full RGB

It gets hacked down to some shitty facsimile of it - 8bit YUV

And 444 turns into 4:2:0

Then they label it 'uncompressed 422' when it comes to HDMI, which the advertising standards authority really should look into...

In fact it is a signal in a highly compressed form, it just hasn't had the H.264 encoding

8bit is compression

4:2:0 is compression

Most cameras that claim to do 422 over HDMI show no sign of it in the actual images.

1 hour ago, Django said:

no DCI 4K.. heavy crop.. strong rolling shutter.. etc

Nikon have a 20MP APS-C sensor that can only do an 8MP window at 30fps

Samsung since 2 years ago (Photokina 2014) have had a 28MP APS-C sensor that can do a 24MP 16:9 full sensor readout (6.5K) and produce DCI 4K from it on-chip, along with encoding H.265, the most computationally advanced codec and the most advanced chipset in any camera to date.

This just shows to me that behind the glossy exterior and marketing Nikon are using cheap Chinese made parts in their cameras, that pretty much anyone (Sony, Toshiba, etc.) can build for them en-masse.

They really should have built a cutting edge semiconductors factory of their own and blazed a trail, as it is they will always reliant on others and quite possibly picking up yesterday's chips in the process, rather than the best.

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6 hours ago, tomekk said:

Do think that's the whole story? It doesn't all add up because Nikon doesn't have C-log as well and they don't have anything to protect. If it was just to protect their 10k$ camera then what is Nikon protecting? 

Nikon has Flat profile, which is amazing. 
They do not have C-LOG because they did not develop it in the first place and they did the Flat profile. 
My point was, Canon already has developed C-LOG. It is there, it exists, do you get that? So no reason not to put it in the 5D except market protection. 

Canon stinks. I can't wait for them to die like Kodak did, it will be well deserved. 
5 years we wait their camera to get nothing. They could have done 4k FF with the 300mbps codec of the X10 and CLOG and the 5DIV would have been an amazing camera for video and photo. Just 2 specs, that are ALREADY existing on canon products. 2 easy specs. Fuck that seriously, they take us for pigeons and they are right to do so. Because the thing is people will still buy their shit. 
 

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Kodak was bailed out by Hollywood and have financial security for many years to come. Its more likely one of the large digital brands will have to go the Samsung way into the toilet. There are just to many options for the market.

I order stuff from Kodak every week, so not ded yet.

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1 hour ago, wolf33d said:

Canon stinks. I can't wait for them to die like Kodak did, it will be well deserved. 
5 years we wait their camera to get nothing. They could have done 4k FF with the 300mbps codec of the X10 and CLOG and the 5DIV would have been an amazing camera for video and photo. Just 2 specs, that are ALREADY existing on canon products. 2 easy specs. Fuck that seriously, they take us for pigeons and they are right to do so. Because the thing is people will still buy their shit. 
 

Yea, like all the other camera manufacturers have similar products to the list you just rattled off... that you clearly believe you deserve, at the price you can afford.

If Sony, Nikon etc were all making amazing hybrid cameras, I could just about understand the levels of anger you have at Canon... But they aren't. At least Canon have a product that more or less meets your list (1DC).

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Just because Sony and Nikon are also fucking up doesn't let Canon off the hook from criticism.

The 3 of these together are largely responsible for the dire direction the industry is taking in terms of sales.

A lack of truly innovative design and adaptation to modern requirements are to blame.

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