thebrothersthre3

Yeah I don't see either being perfect ever. Unless hardware/software gets good enough to artificially erase motion blurring. 

53 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Thanks, do you have a source for this? What paper are you referencing? 

I don't have a horse in this race, I've used the S1H and was impressed by it so the results are there and I don't really care about the specs that much. It wouldn't matter to me either way. I just don't understand how this could be the case because it directly contradicts the dpreview article I posted, which is how I understand these things work.

 @androidlad seems to be the guy to go to on sensor information. I'm not sure where he sources this stuff. Maybe he'll chime in

1 minute ago, HockeyFan12 said:

 

The Alexa actually doesn't have that much more DR total with the noisy shadows but it has gobs more highlight detail.

I really don't want to turn this into a camera debate. I just don't think the S1H has a 12 bit ADC in video mode.

I am pretty sure the 12 bit ADC is just the sensor limitation based off specs on paper. I don't really think it can be disputed unless you think Sony is lying for some reason about their own sensor's capabilities. 

1 hour ago, HockeyFan12 said:

How do you get more than 12 stops of dynamic range from a 12 bit ADC readout? Isn't this impossible by definition? Wouldn't there by a hard ceiling of 12 stops from a 12 bit ADC? See the depreview link above.

My issues are that I don't know why Cinema5D uses SNR=2 as the noise floor or why they place the first wedge of the Xyla chart below clipping. SNR=2 seems arbitrary, and their best explanation of why they choose this is it's what gets them a 14 stop measurement from the Alexa, but Arri intentionally underrates its sensors and if you talk with their reps they'll tell you the Amira, Mini, etc. are 15+ stops. And the official number from Arri has always been 14+ anyway. That's why I see the comparisons as useful, but to me the actual measurement I'd derive from the S1H's result are the 13.8 they find at SNR=1 plus a bit more from them placing the first wedge below clipping. So about 14 stops. Likewise all their numbers seem low to me.

Numbers like "usable dynamic range" and Cinema5D's decision to sort of arbitrarily decide a cut off point for noise have been discussed in the past and never that productively. Canon took issue with their results on the C300 Mk II and released their own tests that correlate more closely with 14-15 stops if read traditionally rather than by Cinema5D's arbitrary (however useful for comparison) metrics. If you're interested in useable dynamic range in the field I find Geoff Boyle's over/under tests on CML more helpful anyway as you can see an entire scene and where different channels clip and there are some cameras that clip certain colors sooner or less attractively. Of course the Alexa does best. 

If the S1H results are heavily influenced by noise reduction I don't know. I didn't know the Ursa Mini had no NR at that, that's impressive if true. I haven't had issues with noise reduction on either camera, but I have read about the S1H having ghosting issues for other people so clearly others have. I'm not really concerned with that, though, as I'm not planning to buy either camera. I'm just trying to understand how you can get 14 stops of dynamic range from a 12 bit ADC.

There is simply no NR when shooting in RAW CDNG. With highlight recovery and NR in davinci added they were able to get a 13 stop read. That said their Alexa measurement is based on prores not RAW, so the Alexa probably has even higher dynamic range in RAW. 

23 minutes ago, M.R. said:

If I'm not mistaken OIS is normally always better than IBIS right?

It's hard to find some good sources where you can see some of the cheaper lenses tested, so I'm asking here.
The image quality seems fine, judging from the reviews, of all the cheap or moderately cheap kit lenses from Fuji.
But how is the OIS and Autofocus of the following lenses on a Fuji XT 3 (or XT 4, or compareable model)

Fuji XC 15-45mm F3.5 - 5.6 OIS PZ
Fuji XC 16-50mm F3.5 - 5.6 OIS II
Fuji XF 18-55mm F2.8 - 4 R LM OIS

And how does it compare to the Fuji XF 16 - 80 mm F4 R OIS WR for instance?

I can only comment on the 18-55 2.8 which has amazing OIS and auto focus. I also have the 50-230 which also has good OIS and auto focus. IBIS seems to F up stabilization on wider lenses(almost every IBIS system I've seen). While the OIS does a great job at the wider end. 

3 minutes ago, androidlad said:

BRAW is not really RAW in a conventional sense, it's partially debayered and processed. And there's absolutely noise reduction going on in BRAW, however BMD seem to have turned it down on 4.6K G2 vs G1 (12.1 stops in BRAW on G2 vs 12.6 on G1)

I have the OG URSA with CDNG

Fuji's IBIS is like Panasonic's auto focus. They just don't seem to care. 

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Definitely there are lots of people would like it that way! (I too think I'd lean to preferring that)

But the complaints from people do not like this approach would be huge. Many want to just to be able to pop in a card and a lens on the camera then be able to go with it!

Thus my point, either which way Blackmagic went, they'd be damned for it. 

From a commercial perspective, they probably made the right choice? I bet the OG Pock sold many many many times more cameras than the Micro Cinema Camera sold.

The issue is they didn't do it right. It wasn't a pocket camera it was ginormous. And that is fine because lets face it you can't really do a small camera that has BRAW yet. The OG Pocket was pretty small but such a small body can't do 4k with the BRAW compression. Plus the OG body overheated.

They should have made it even bigger and put a decent battery in it (something that lasted an hour+) they also should have included a tilt screen. Then you'd have a very usable small camera. However when you need to add an external monitor and battery solution it becomes a pain in the ass. 

A huge benefit for me with larger bodies like the URSA is being able to get good handheld footage. I was shooting on a 50mm lens in 1080p prores and got nice footage. If I tried that with my XT3 it wouldn't be usable at all. It isn't a rolling shutter issue either as in 1080p the rolling shutter is comparable to the URSA. I was almost shocked how much of a difference it made TBH. IBIS or lens OIS is pretty important with smaller bodies unless you are always using a tripod or gimbal.

10 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I might be misunderstanding something, but my understanding was that the bit depth of the ADC correlated with the maximum number of stops of dynamic range:

https://***URL removed***/articles/4653441881/bit-depth-is-about-dynamic-range-not-the-number-of-colors-you-get-to-capture

There are serious issues with Cinema5D's methodology, even if their comparisons are useful. But even 12.7 stops would be too much for a 12 bit ADC was my understanding and to me their results read as significantly more.

Regardless, the S1H has outstanding dynamic range, in my experience more than most cinema cameras with quoted 14 stops of DR (though not Alexa-level by any means), and something doesn't add up here.

Yeah its more like 12 actual stops of dynamic range. Numbers just depend on your testing methods though. Its one of the reasons I got the URSA mini 4.6k. The 12.6 stops in RAW measured by Cinema 5D are actually genuine as there is no noise reduction going on in RAW. 

I was never really satisfied with the GH5 even though I loved the body/IBIS. The low light performance and dynamic range on the A6300 impressed me initially though after moving to Fuji I'd never want to go back to Sony colors, even Panasonic color was always lackluster at least on the GH5. Maybe I would have liked the GH5S better, but no IBIS is a bummer. 
 

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Fujis are real cameras made by people being in the industry for decades, Sony older bodies were/are a joke.

The Pocket comment is a bit unfair, it is not a hybrid camera, you can't reallly compare it with a hybrid. It is a different thing, that does different things, while you can use it as a hybrid when you can't the Ursa!

I have used handheld the P4K with a 12mm Samyang and a lot of times with the 12-100mm Olympus, it is doable, I have done it, it ain't a Sony!

..but the camera shines when half rigged which is a lot lighter and smaller than an Ursa. I personally do not like at all the shape/design of the BM, but you do not buy one to use it as a photo camera, that is why I have kept all my NX stuff and still use them, even today! 

 

Perhaps I was too harsh on the pocket. But I just can't understand why they didn't at least add a flip screen. Its very hard to shoot with a fixed screen and see what you are doing, at least with the way I shoot. Battery swapping can be a pain but its doable, though the P6K pretty much crosses the line with the poor battery life. 

In terms of body design though I actually love the original Pocket camera by black magic. Yes the battery life sucked, but the grip was amazing. Probably the nicest feeling small camera I've held. Felt so nice in the hand. Of course that was killed after I rigged it up with a cage and all that BS(eventually selling it) If I were to go to an older BM camera it would be the Micro, really the only decently designed one.

I think with the crazy specs we've come to expect bigger bodies that can accommodate bigger batteries make more sense. Also if a Camera is meant to be small and compact I think a built in flip/tilt screen is a must(the brighter the better). External monitors are just way to bulky. 

Yeah Cinema 5D measured it at 12.7 stops when shooting in 6k, but I think that was due to the aggressive NR going on(seems to be more at 6k according to different sources). Just my guess as 4k was measured at 12.3. 

25 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

worst camera ergonomics ever! Haven't used a worst thing! Also, menus, touch screen(is it?), battery life, red hot camera body..name it.

Older A7 cameras were terrible too, the iii is a lot better, still far from optimum, still the menus in chaos. 

Not a big fun of Fuji ergonomics either, to be honest, but still they have some buttons and dials, unlike the a6xxx..

Yeah Fuji menus are sucky. I don't usually need to change anything though that I can't access with the buttons. Menus are still better than Sony. 

On the Fuji I have the high speed option assigned to a button, so if I want to switch to 120p is super quick. However say I want to switch from 24p to 60p or from HD to 4k, then I have to go into the menus.

I like the A6300 grip but yeah it heats up in 4k and the battery life sucked. 

One big thing I think a lot of people don't take into account on the XT3 is the battery grip! Some battery grips only have a single battery or don't allow you to utilize the in camera battery. Fuji gives you two batteries in the grip plus the one in the camera. That makes for pretty amazing battery life and the extra weight honestly helps for video.

Its one of the many reasons I haven't went with a Pocket camera over the Fuji. Fuji has AF, flip screen, easy compact battery solution, and nicer out of camera color. Whats the point of a Pocket camera if you can't really easily use it in its native form factor. Of course the Pocket cams will be worth it for some people but I'd rather just grab my Ursa if I really need the IQ. I can actually shoot handheld on my URSA without it looking a mess. 

King of forgot about the A6300 body, it actually had a nice grip, compared to the XT3 at least. 

14 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

Lol just because Sony did no show doesnt mean other companies will follow through.

Though i think those cameras will be released on 2nd half of the year after pandemic is under control and logistic/supply is returning to normal (though it could be like 1918 flu which 2nd wave is even worse)

I used to have A7III before dumping it for eos R, it just fit our c100/c200 much better.

And i have used EOS R for racing track video in 4k too, despite it's high rolling shutter, guess i like some challenge?!

 

Let's not forget VND adapter is the killer for video use.

Yeah EOS r makes sense if you shout canon. If you shoot with an FS7 tho the A73 makes a lot more sense imo 

@Brother

The IBIS definitely looks jittery in the moving shots near the end of the vid you posted. But in the more static shots it looks good. Seems like its only reliable use is a static tripod replacement. Which in itself is actually very useful as who wants to be lugging a tripod around. That said the XT3 is going for around $800 used and the 18-55 ois is amazing for handheld shooting, you can even walk with it and get good results at the 18-23mm end. 

Have only owned a limited number of cameras but the GH5 has been my favorite body. That isn't saying much considering I've mostly owned smaller cameras other wise (Fuji, APSC Sony, older Panasonic's)

The XT3 is about as small of a body as I can take. I really dislike the XT30 body. Its just way too small. Its nice as a travel camera though as it can more easily fit in a pocket.

I prefer tilt screens to flip screens. Screens that are built into the body are unacceptable and pretty useless IMHO(looking at you Blackmagic and Canon). Black magic definitely has the nicest menu's but they don't have to include any photo oriented settings which makes it way easier. I feel like it would be better if hybrid cameras had a completely different menu for the photo and video modes, rather than just having things greyed out.

2 hours ago, PaulUsher said:

Thanks for engaging bro. I've read on here somewhere that the R's crop mode (both the 4K and 1080 flavours) is clocked at 28ms, same as 1DXIII FF4K30p, where the 5DMKIV is 30ms and the RP is 33ms. But who knows, and anyway it's splitting hairs isn't it? They're all shockers for RS!

LOVED my C100 (and C300), but I'm downsizing from the C line - I want something low-profile that I can hide under the table when it isn't stuck to my hand (highly recommend the Spiderpro handstrap for any mirrorless/dslr) and doesn't get me thrown out of places (when I can eventually get back into them...)

As for the days of gimped Canon cameras being over, well, we can pray (Amen).

@Django  &

@Super8

- thanks for the support, I'm a long-time reader, finally sticking it in - felt it needed to be said. Hopefully someone searching online will find it useful and make the most of their mpb-acquired R Classic. Who knows, maybe peeps will be giving sage advice in years to come: "you know, if you dont have the budget for an R5/R6/R1/RC, and you're only shooting 1080, the R Classic always had a bit of mojo - they're mad value used if you know their limitations..." - sound familiar? (C100?)

I am pretty sure the rolling shutter is about half in 1080p modes but I could be wrong. That is usually the case on mirrorless cameras. Its easier to get past rolling shutter on the 1DX3 as it has such great frame rate/resolution/codec options. But I'll be sticking to my Fuji for now. We'll see what the R5 and R6 bring to the table upon release. Might get an EOS R at some point if they ever hit the 1k price point used. 

4 hours ago, Django said:

@PaulUsher Couldn't have said it better myself. I've been using the R as a B-CAM to C100/C200 for Multicam shoots and it intercuts perfectly.

It also of course doubles as a mirrorless 5D stills cam. All my DSLR flash accessories etc work perfectly on it.

That's another great thing about Canon, cameras just work. Easy to operate. AF, WB, exposure always nailed. Clear menus, ergonomics.

Anyways, I was thinking of dropping my C200 in favour of my FS7, but with no A7S3 on the horizon, I'm now thinking R5+C200 may be a better combo.

Probably will wait a little longer but FS7 might actually get the axe. Again bad move on Sony delaying video oriented Alpha cam.

Why not the A73? The EOS R is just a mess though. I’ve thought about the 5d mk4 as I believe it actually has better rolling shutter performance. However you don’t get the amazing flip screen and the EOS R has superior dynamic range. I think you’ve said the EOS R has a S35 mode with detailed HD and I’m guessing less rolling shutter. Basically makes it a decent S35 camera. Though at that point would it not be better to get a C100 mk2 for video? I wish the EOS R could do 10 bit out in HD for less rolling shutter and maybe even full frame. I guess the C200 can’t even do 10 bit 4k out. I’m glad the days of gimped canon cameras are over. I do see how the EOS R is a no brained as a Bcam if you have another canon camera especially if you need a hybrid. 

I’ve seen some good results on manual lenses with ibis only. If it can get shots without jitter at 150mm I’d be happy, static I mean. Can it though ? 

@SteveV4D

I think the production company @Super8 contracted had purchased the Pocket 6k's not him. 

The Alexa and Weapon both look on par detail wise. Was he shooting the Weapon at a lower resolution to match the Arri tho? I am guessing the RED would still be a lot more detailed being downsampled from 8K. 

Those Alexa's going for 5k are tempting. 

Yeah soft focus can definitely be a problem on smaller shoots. IBIS is also hugely helpful to replace a tripod or for slider imitation shots(if short and slowed down from 60/48fps). 
 

Simple things like proper inputs/outputs make the Pocket6k a unique camera in its own right though. Along with things like having the only compressed RAW in the game that can really compete with RED. All for $2000 or $1000 if you get the 4k. 

It will be very interesting to see what Canon comes up with on the R5 tho. Just simple things like the flip screen and a decent battery life will make it very appealing to me. If it does full frame 2k RAW I'd love that too. I wish the Pocket 6k could do 2k or HD RAW at s35.

37 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Oh I know smaller cameras get used by large production companies.  Often because they are disposable or small enough to fit inside a narrow, tight space.  Maybe I'm just naive though to think such large production companies are not shooting with cameras they're not familiar with, and making rookie mistakes with them, but if you're playing with the sort of money some larger movies have, why risk any longer, more cinematic shots on a camera that costs a fraction of their Red or Alexa.  Sure for quick cutaways maybe. 

If the Canon 1DX Mark III is such a great camera for grading and colour, why bother with those pesky P4Ks and P6Ks, if you're a professional Production company using Reds.  I mean I like them, I use my P4K all the time, but boy, you have to rig them to hell to make them work, with extra battery, cage, monitor if its outdoors.  Better options are now out there for the sort of B shots needed these days, even compared to what was available when Mad Max Fury Road was being made.  10 bit in smaller mirrorless cameras just didn't really exist then to the extent they are now.  So you can understand their choice.  Now an S1H with its timecode and Netflix approval, is a better choice for B camera for larger production companies.  Especially if none can be bothered to make good use of RAW.  Plus I'd wager the R5 will do just as well when released for those sort of jobs too.  It's being touted by Canon as a great B camera for their C300 and C500.

 

I think mistakes happen far more likely then we'd think. I tend to be a person who obsesses over every detail but not everyone is that way, and they still are able to make a living. 

I do agree its a rather large oversight. But lets consider that any other camera on the market doesn't have that issue (Sony, Panasonic, RED, Arri). So if you are used to just grabbing a camera and expecting a good image it would be understandable. Although after looking into the older RED models they also had IR pollution issues. So maybe its less excusable lol

2 hours ago, Parker said:

I just decided to pull the trigger on the Forza 500 about six months ago and be done with it, and have been happy with my choice. If/when the 600D is available I will re-evaluate, but I didn't want to wait, and now I have a nice, bright new light on every shoot. 

any color cast on that bad boy?

The old Black Magic Cinema Camera (the 2.5K version) was used on Mad Max and that's an older less capable sensor. Of course it wasn't the A cam but it was used for some significant shots. They had the ND filter taped to the front of it for certain shots too lol. I don't think there are really any rules to what you can and cannot use. I am sure the project Super8 was working on is way smaller and lower budget than Fury Road.