thebrothersthre3

I think everyone freaked out about 8k because its Canon. Who would have thought Canon be the one to spearhead into 8k. Even if its not really needed right now.

12 minutes ago, Super8 said:

How does colorblindness affect you?  I have a friend that can't see orange colors very well. 

I agree with your comments about Canon being expensive and lacking features in the past. The reason I brought up Canon color in this thread is because a lot of people are being negative about the R5's specs but they're missing the point about how important color is.

This is what I got on a color blind test I just did. 
"Protan-type color vision deficiency is a type of red-green color blindness where the red cones in the eye do not detect enough red light, but instead respond more to green light.

As a result, many colors such as green, yellow, orange, red, and brown may appear confusingly similar. People with color blindness often also confuse blue and purple, and see pink as a shade of gray or white."

Sounds accurate. 

Canon seems to be finally catching up in features. I don't think they will ever be inexpensive but they are a premiere brand so that is expected I guess. 

14 minutes ago, Super8 said:

I was surprised by the Ursa Mini's color science in that clip.  Based on my experience with the P6K I think you the Ursa Mini's is better than what it looks like in that clip.

What do you shoot with? What do you prefer?

I currently have an XT3 and Ursa Mini 4.6k. Seemed like the two best options within my budget restraints.

Lots of people raved over the XT-3's color science. Again I am certainly not one to go to when it comes to color advice but I will say footage I got from my A6300 always looked poor in comparison. I also like it better than what I was seeing from my GH5. I've always liked Canon colors but their cameras are either too expensive, too under spec'ed or a mix of both. 

I've heard a lot of good things about the Ursa and have liked what I've seen from it so I got one. Some people think the Sony sensors in the Pocket 4k and 6k have something to do with the inferior color science to Blackmagic's older models fairchild sensors. f

I'd say if I could have any camera right now it would be the C300 Mark 3. 

I'll say this if there was a way to fix my color blindness I'd be saving for the procedure lol. 

11 minutes ago, Super8 said:

Here's Canon C500 vs BMP6K

This shows just how far off the BMP6k color performance is compared to Canon color science.  

What do you think of the Ursa Mini's color science btw? 

Also I assume you are an industry colorist?  

I actually have a form of colorblindness so having a camera with good color reproduction is important to me. If I don't want to pay a colorist I need to rely on the camera pretty much lol. Coming from my blind perspective the P6K colors look more harsh for lack of a better word. There has been a lot of complaints over the P4K colors not as much the P6K though. 

That is the Ursa Mini 4.6k, completely different sensor from the Pocket 6k.

Its a little hard to take you seriously when you say the Sony Venice looks like its colors are painted on. You aren't just arguing against people online when you say that, you are saying the people who engineered it must have had no idea what they are doing as well as the productions that use it. 
 

28 minutes ago, Super8 said:

I would say the video does show the complete dynamic range from latest to darkest. Not how many stops but from light to dark.

Look in the mid to dark shadows and what do you see?  You see good color rendition, you see actually color choices in the shadows that don't get muddy or dull. You have separation or color and separation of reflective color.  Can you tell what color is in the mid shadows and darker shadows.  

If you go the other way, you can tell how the lighter areas react to color. 

I like the latitude you have with the P6K and think it's great.  I am seeing a lot of issues with color that doesn't play well across the board with the P6K.  

Ah I thought you were talking about color shifts often seen when you shoot at higher ISO's on many cameras, or color shifts when raising under exposed footage. 

13 hours ago, Super8 said:

Take a look at this video from the 1DX III.  It gets good at the 00:30sec mark.

Do you know how much color grading you would have to do to get the BMP6K to get it to look like this? 

This is a perfect color test because you have so many reflective colors bouncing around on the face, on the dress and back up to the face.  For colorist this color a piece of cake to grade. 

 

Yes the colors in that video are very nice. Would certainly be nice to see other cameras performing in the same setting though. 

But if we are talking about consistency throughout the ISO range as well as under and over exposing(which Arri is known for keeping consistent colors when under and over exposed) this video doesn't really showcase anything. 

https://***URL not allowed***/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-6k-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/

In regards to the Pocket 6k though, the tests cinema 5d did seem to indicate that the Pocket 6k has pretty nice latitude at least when under exposed. I've never underexposed the S1H to this degree but seeing as you have some experience with its latitude do you think it would fare as well as the Pocket 6k?

29 minutes ago, Super8 said:

Yes what you like vs what I like is subjective, of course.  I'm talking about cameras that produce footage that's closer to "correct natural" color, i.e. this in turn means it's easier to color grade.  Everyone knows as you move up and down ISO you get color shift.  What does ARRI do? It's more consistent all around. So you have excellent color to begin with and great color latitude. 

I'm talking about pure color quality in the image.  Which cameras handle color better is not really subjective.  Which image you like is subjective.  Does that make sense?

You got me there. Have you worked with enough cameras to definitively say Arri handles color best though? I was looking at some comparisons recently and I remember the Monstro and Venice holding up really well but the Arri probably still did best. 

Is Canon really number 2 in terms of keeping color consistent while pushing exposure and ISO though? 

Everything is subjective. I'd say the majority of people think Arri delivers the greatest image if you don't take resolution into account. However there are certainly people who think RED is better.

22 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

You need up your bitrate and resolution to avoid compression artefacts. Try shooting Long GOP as well instead of ALL-I.

I was shooting Long GOP, but yeah maybe it was just the 2k that did it. Can't seem to replicate it now. 

49 minutes ago, Super8 said:

I asked that question because I noticed it when grading BM footage, using BMP6K (x4) on two different shoots.  If you look all over the web you'll see the same-thing.

You have a BMP4. What's your take on this? 

For the record I love the BMP6K. But you have to dial it to get it to look good.  If you start going over or under it loses control and can look horrible. This means you have very little forgiveness with how they've pushed that sensor. The S1H has much better color latitude and color science compared to the BMP6K.

Interesting, I wouldn't think the S1H has more latitude than a Pocket 6k. 

2 hours ago, androidlad said:

It's the infamous F-log banding/macro-blocking, discussed before.

My lord that is bad. Fuji needs to fix this. 

13 hours ago, heart0less said:

What codec and bit rate do you use? 

No problems here, though I shoot HLG @400Mbps All-I. 

I believe it was 2k 200mbps

Just shot some tests at 2k 100mbps Long GOP, no issues in the shadows. Really weirded out wtf is this 

 

15 minutes ago, Django said:

I'm honestly thinking about dropping my C200. Can't really justify keeping it alongside the FS7 in the current climate (even though on CS, ergonomics, DPAF & RAW capabilities it crushes the FS7). I'm holding small hope for a middle codec but if not it'll be up for sale soon which really bums me out.. 😒

Kind of off topic but do you know if the C200 RAW is log or linear? 

13 minutes ago, Michi said:

I always wonder what people refer to when writing about motion cadence. Is that a real, measurable thing? Sounds more like something esoteric...

I have no clue. Some say it has to do with rolling shutter but I've heard some say a camera with much higher RS than another has better motion cadence. I've also heard people say a camera has great motion while another person says it looks bad. So who the hell knows imo

I was just reviewing some old footage I took in flog at 2k and noticed some pretty bad smearing in the shadows. Really ugly. I thought maybe it was premiere doing something weird but resolve looks the same and it looks the same when rendered. Nothing done to the footage besides the Fuji WDR Lut. 

zoomed in at 220% to show the issue more but its certainly visible. Check the shadows

Blackmagic needs to put out a Full frame camera with an improved body (smaller than ursa, larger than pocket(or at least better designed). Kinefinity puts out interesting stuff though, definitely seems a bit more mature than Z-cam.

4 hours ago, BenEricson said:

It does 60p, you just need the 7Q recorder. The 444 model does 60p to the black magic video assist tho.

True I forgot. The Blackmagic recorder is the cheapest easiest solution. I think 7Qs can be had at fairly good prices used though. 

If you like cine bodies and don't need 4k and don't need 10 bit beyond 30p then its a good option. 

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

It is around 1200$ in U.S, I bet you can find a used one for a lot less, the difference in money is huge, in IQ, is minimum. Have you used one? Braw, Dual ISO coupled with an ok lens and you are good to go. I am happy to use m43 lenses as well, easier, and very productive. The image is, miam..

What else do you have? why you need 3 cameras (I have 4 NX and the P4K now)? It is annoying if you have a lot of different brands and you have to match everything, that is why I try to keep one system, the P4K is bonus, and it is Braw, so it can match anything anyway.

Yeah I have been thinking about a single system. I want something with good auto focus so I have an XT3 for that, I suppose I could just get three XT-3's. Would be pretty cheap. I enjoy RAW though so I also have an Ursa mini and just need to decide on a third cam. Either thinking another Xt3 or another blackmagic camera and the Pocket 4k seems to make the most sense(maybe the 6k). They aren't really going for below $1200 used right now. I've shot with the P4K many times but haven't edited any footage before. 

42 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

I got a similar case ( a bit cheaper, but pleasantly dark-ish green) with my P4K back in the day.

@Anaconda_ Unfortunately they do not ship in my country, and anyway, it is a lot more than the 1.995$ U.S citizens pay.

I call it Euro-premium, why we do have to pay the premium anymore, I do not know..

@thebrothersthre3 "almost" is exactly 0 (zero) in any case, whoever low or high a price is.

We have discussed extensively the benefits of owing a P4K camera (even vs the 6K), it is not only because of the price, but the price plays a significant role to its success, yes, obviously.

 I still need a third cam and it’s still on my radar. If it cost the same as the 6k though I’d just buy the 6k for IQ despite the other drawbacks. Just waiting to see if I can find a good deal on a used one when the economy tanks even more(hopefully it doesn’t )

If the R5 disappoints with dynamic range, low light performance,  or record limits then the Panasonic S1 could still come out ahead in many ways. 

10 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

We are NOT U.S citizens!

Cheapest I found was at CVP for 2285euros (2474$), that seems to be the cheapest retail price in Europe, still a lot better than most new full frame hybrids and significantly cheaper than before (standard price was 2700-2800euros, and heavy discounted was near 2400euros). I am not sure how fast these prices will trickle down locally.

Maybe there will be some grey market nearing the 2000euros mark, hope so. 

It is also an indication that the 6 sold a lot less than the 4, by the way.

I think it was largely due to how inexpensive it was. Even though the Pocket 4k doesn't check a lot of boxes for me I almost bought it just because its so cheap. 

It’s already taken into effect at the big retailers in the US B&H and Adorama. Can’t wait till the used market drops to $1700

7 minutes ago, padam said:

Maybe have changed their thinking and it will have the same dynamic range as the 1DX III and only the readout speed is lower and the IPB codecs and the 20MP 45MP gap is now wide enough to differentiate. Sounds way too good to be true to me, it's Canon who would rather cripple it harder to have more headroom to cut prices in the long run, so I have my doubts, and it would kill my EOS R, I guess I have some time to sell it on, but they would also kill it for the future as well.

And the 4k30 uncropped rolling shutter will be very bad and worse than the 1DX III, it would be just like the EOS RP in cropped 4k mode (33ms, very severe) or maybe they disable the AF and run in it a different mode.
Interestingly, enough the 1DX III FF4k60p (raw 60p) has the AF disabled, but the 14ms rolling shutter is really good, the FF4k30p (raw 30p) with AF is 28ms, same as the EOS R crop 4k, not great, but it is full sensor. They could have enabled that mode for uncropped 4k30p manual focus, so it would be closer to cinema cameras, but they just decided to leave it separate.

If your EOS R works for you now it'll still work for you when the R6 comes out tho