gt3rs

13 hours ago, jgharding said:

Tiny fanless camera with ProRes and RAW to SD cards, released in 2013:

 

This is a fullHD, small sensor camera.... BM 4k prores cameras have cooling fan

8 hours ago, andrgl said:

Care to share any links to C200 RAW samples?

Here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g99sjyywq79sgmu/AAAFznyQCMfwPt9qzpRwR_B9a?dl=0

It is linked in the comment of the ProAV youtube review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFW00qj2ZMQ

 

Today I did a quick test to see how easy is to edit C200 RAW files with Resolve 14 beta 5 and what kind of machine it would be needed.

I tested it on a Asus gaming notebook with i7 7700 HQ and NVidia GTX 1070 8 GBVRam , 512 SSD, 16 GB ram, ca 1800 USD machine.

Resolve see the .CRM files like normal video files and it is able even on a notebook to play back the 4k 25p RAW lite file in real-time. Editing is fast with very fast scrubbing so no need to convert them for editing. Lite grading (color wheels, MD boost, saturation, contrast, sharpening, power window) is possible in real time on 4k timeline. For more complex stuff like NR on this notebook you need to enable proxy (flag to enable 1/2 resolution in Resolve, it does not generate or use proxy file) or change the timeline temporarily to fullHD for real-time preview. The main bottleneck is the CPU reaching 100% with a more complex grade with NR... For a 6 core i7 with GTX 1080 should not be a problem up to medium grading

As expected if you have a powerful enough machine and you are a Resolve user you can edit natively the RAW Lite in real-time. I'm quite sure that 4k 60p the notebook will not be able to do it in real-time but the only RAW lite that I found are 4k 25p.

One thing that at the moment it seems not possible it is to change the WB or the ISO on the RAW Lite in Resolve because the Camera Raw tab is disabled but I'm not sure, anyone have an idea?

 

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:36 PM, Kisaha said:

Thank you, I would like to know more about the thermals (Piriform Speccy is great, and free!).

I work in Premiere and I recently got a GL502VM but on a few rendering tests I did (light, no color correction, no nothing) the first second start rising to 84C for both CPU and motherboard (GPU 70-75).

I tested a couple of games, and when the GPU were reaching 85C (it seems that is the limit from Asus, 85-87C) the CPU/Motherboard were reaching 95, even 98C (then it was throttling).

So I decided to take it back to the shop, but my issue is that I haven't find anything clearly better in heat dissipation (except my NX1 :p ), and all the rest of the laptops are at least 1Kg heavier (that is 2.3-2.4Kg) and a lot bigger, and a lot pricier, so I am really considering taking it back(! I have a day to reconsider, really). At least it had a perfect monitor (no light bleeding at all, I was amazed) and has Thunderbolt 3 (unlike the VS series, the VM have).

There are some obvious designing limitations (small fans, not enough airflow intake, small copper lines), and the first thing to do is undervolt CPU/GPU, and then open holes, just under the fans.

After a lot of research, I do not believe there is a normal to "slim" (for a gaming one) sizing (and weighting) laptop with 1060 6GB and up. I was looking at 1050ti ones, but there is a serious downgrade from the 1060, so I haven't decided yet.

The panel is a G-Sync, so it performs better for gaming, than video critical work, but it is much better than similar laptops I have seen.

Today I did a 5 hours editing session and I did check the temperature and throttling. First I converted h264 files to DNxHD and the machine did run for 1h continuously at 100% CPU with a temp around 80° C for CPU and 65 for GPU (gpu was doing almost nothing) and it did not throttle at all always around 3.380 GHZ. I then did 3 hours of editing and grading 4k and there was really no stress and at the end the final render the CPU went up to 84-87° C throttling it at 3300-3350 GHZ. At the end I played with C200 RAW natively on a 4k 25p timeline with some grading while letting loop continuously the preview it did reach 89° C the CPU and 80° the GPU and after 10 minutes it did throttle down to 3000 GHZ.

In my opinion is a non issue for editing because you never play continuously the video so it cools down between every preview.... Worst case it throttle down for the final render but there is not an issue if it becomes 10% slower...

Games are probably different because the load is continuous, but I'm not a gamer so I cannot comment on it.

Bottom-line for portable editing and grading in Resolve it is a good compromise between price, perf and portability. In 3 months that I have used it for editing and grading I never run in to issues du to the heat.

 

 

On the official web site you can see the remote buggy with the camera that they have used for the wind turbine time-lapse

http://awaken.film/

At the bottom of the homepage you can see a special gimbal mounted on a car.

On the film Instagram account you can see some behind the scenes snapshots:

https://www.instagram.com/awakenfilm/

Sure you are right is very simple just put macos and an intel i7 and problem solved. Maybe in a nice mirrorless camera with a tiny battery?. 

In fact is soo easy that nobody has achived yet to do prores on a fanless camera.... But yeah the fan on these cameras is for drying hairs?

You are aslo right a closed sealed body vs. a fan spinnig low is  exacltly the same..... and dslr have so much headroom in thermal that is absolutely uneard of dlsr overheating while filming 4k so lets put faster cpu in there...

I agree with you that it could be developed but the cost is just too much for a low volume device compared to notebook and phones....

I think we got really ot....

12 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Who says it needs a fan just because it has ProRes?

It doesn't.

There's plenty of devices that do realtime ProRes encoding with no fan.

DNxHD would be another choice... I don't know why these companies stick to H.264 and MJPEG as if they are the default choice codecs for acquisition and editing... They're not

I agree that prores and or DNxHD would be the best but can you name at least one camera that does 4k ProRes or DNxHD that does not have a cooling fan?

Arri, Red, Canon Cxxx, Blackmagic, DJI all have cooling fan and if I'm not mistaken only BM ursa can do 4k 60p in prores the others they all max out at 4k 30p (for higher framerate they use other codec mostly raw...)

The problem is that currently there seems that there is no chip that can do ProRes, DNxHD and even XF AVC at 4k without needing a fan. h264 has become so common on consumer devices that the HW implementation is easy to find and are so efficient that they don't require a cooling mechanisms.

I'm not an expert in external recorders but as far as I know all the portable recorder that do Prores have fan, but if you know some that do not have a fan or a super large external heat sink and happy to know.

I hate Canon for crippling stuff and omitting feature like no CLog on 1Dx II, no zebra, no peeking on higher models, no live waveforms or histogram... my Phantom 4 Pro has all these feature... but considering that nobody else has managed to put a pro codec on a DSLR I strongly believe it is a technical challenge.

Of course they could put a fan on a DSLR but then it would be better to spec up the C100.... a C100 that does 4k 60p even only at 8bit XF AVC 300 Mbits/ 500 Mbits for 4.5k would sell much more than a DSLR with a fan for 3.5k....

I would agree that they could have offered both h264 100 mbits or so and MJPEG so you can chose by your needs.

Expecting a large sensor DSLR fully weather sealed to do 4k 60p ProRes maybe at 3k usd when all the very expensive top of the line cameras have fan and cannot even do 4k 60p in prores is non realistic. We will get there but not yet.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

There's no excuse for MJPEG.

Clearly Canon doesn't want to pay Apple the licensing fee for ProRes!

How much would this be per camera? $5 extra?

Even the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera had ProRes... for $1000... Yet Canon can't do it for $4000?

5$ for prores and 3$ for a cooling fan like every single prores capable camera.... fan in a weather sealed body is not the best idea....

I'm the first one hoping for something better but there must be a reason why since 2012 no camera manufacturer is able to put a pro codec on a dslr?

xc and Cxxx Canon cameras all have a cooling fan...

8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Nope, depends on the flavour of ProRes.

ProRes LT for example is considerably smaller than MJPEG 500MBit/s, yet is 10bit 4:2:2. MJPEG is only 8bit!

It's a shit codec. It truly is!

I take the shitty codec any day instead of the super mega h264 LGOP 4:2:0........ the only good DSLR codec will probably be the ALL-I 10bit h264 of the upcoming GH5 firmware but is also big at 400 Mbits... Of course ProRes would be better but there is no DSLR at the moment that has it.

You want edit ready and quality you will have big files.... MJPEG is around 30% less efficient that more modern codec... but until the new firmware for GH5 nobody has yet implemented a 4k All-I 4:2:2 on a DSLR.... 

Best would be to have both so you can chose quality and edit-ability vs. storage cost...

Unfortunately camera store are killed by the internet. Last time a brought something from a camera store was in 2004.... The price pressure is too big for them to survive and we consumer we don't want to pay more than what we find online....

Canon, Nikon, Sony they can do whatever they want but they will never win back smartphone users and smartphones are getting better and better to the point that an average consumer does not care at all about other cameras. This is why the race is the Pro and Semi Pro/Serious hobbits.

On the other hand I see more and more pro using very expensive equipment like REDs etc filming for Instagram and co for big companies to separate their post from the masses of phone imagery...

 

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 0:12 AM, Kisaha said:

@gt3rs What Rog do you have? GL502VS ? I see crazy heat on those laptops (both 502 and 702). Can you comment about thermals?

How important do you thing the GPU is on an editing notebook?

Cheers.

Yes I have the GL502VS and so far I never run into issue due to thermals. Yes the pc becomes quite hot and the fun works quite hard during editing but so far nothing alarming. Btw on a normal edit / grading session you are not always playing back continuously so the continues load comes mostly at the final render. I don't render long stuff so most of the time below 10 minutes. If I remember I can check the temp next time a render something long to see what the values are.

The panel is not great but on my 2 locations I have good 4k external monitors so the issue is only when I'm on the road.

For Resolve GPU is key because almost all the effects and even more important the grades (NR, Sharpening, Blurs, power windows, optical flow, etc) are all done by the GPU. The faster the GPU is the more grading you can preview in real-time at high res without pre-render.  Also the recommended minimum VRam for 4k in Resolve is 6 GB.

 

23 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

The build quality is stunning and as a stills camera I still rate it the best around. The 1D X II doesn't beat the image in stills mode or video mode. It only really offers autofocus improvements.

 

Actually the 1Dx II still image have more DR from 100 up to 400. Is in most test and having both 1Dx and 1Dx II the difference is there and quite a bit in shadow recovery. Of course not really a key point for the OP.

25 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The only considerations are practical. The image is almost perfect.

The file sizes are very large in 4K. You cannot quite edit MJPEG smoothly, even on a high end machine. You need to transcode the files to ProRes and that takes some time out of your 'flow'.

The MJPEG files can safely be deleted once you convert to ProRes but you'll still need huge amounts of hard drive space to store a year's worth of work either way. Converting to H.264 is still an option though..

I don't know what Andrew uses as NLE and machine but this is not correct at least for what I do almost every day.

I can only speak for Resolve on Windows because this is what I use but Resolve handles 4k MJPEG super well. in fact there is no performance benefits in transcoding to DNxHD. Even on a Notebook like a Dell XPS 15 7700HD GTX 1050 you can edit in real-time with super fast scrubbing even the 60p MJPEG (double the work for the pc than 1Dc files).
I do all my editing and grading on a Asus Rog gaming notebook 7700 HQ, GTX 1070  and I never ever transcoded any of my 1Dx II MJPEG. With the CFast you can even edit directly from the card so in super urgent cases I can even skip the copy to pc.... Probably it will work from a fast CF card too.

Naturally the archiving size is big so you need to factor this in.

Bottom-line at least with Resolve on Windows a desktop PC around 1500 USD (Quad core modern I7 and 6GB graphic card) will be more than enough for real-time editing and grading.

I can help you at least with Resolve. I switched from Premiere a couple of years ago so I cannot comment on Premiere.

I edit 90% of my stuff a combination of 1Dx II MJPEG 4k 30-60p and h264 4k 30-60p (Drone stuff) on a gaming notebook (Asus Rog) i7 7700 HQ with GTX 1070 and it is fine. The h264 material I convert through optimize media, the MJPEG I edit them natively without conversion. The new 14 studio version should do h264 decoding in the GPU (Nvidia, windows only) so I hopefully I may skip the conversion for 4k h264 material too once it is final.

Edit on a 4k 60p timeline in real-time is not a problem with basic transition like dissolves etc... 30p and below is no issue at all. I use also quite a bit optical flow retiming on 4k 60p material on a 30p timeline slowed down at 25% and the notebook can cope with this. Bottom-line I never encounter so far an issue with 4k up to 60p on the edit tab with the notebook.

Grading the notebook can cope well with light grading 3-4 nodes, qualifier, power windows and even some NR in real-time on a 4k timeline. If you do more heavy grading you can either change the timeline resolution to FullHD for real-time playback and switch it back to 4k for final render or simple use the proxy feature and set it at half resolution (it changes the resolution on the fly with a switch, it is not using or generating proxy, a very handy feature).

Bottom-line on a gaming notebook with a GTX 1070 you can edit and grade well, worst case you just change the timeline resolution to fullhd for real-time playback and switch it back just before final render. 

My friend has a Dell XPS 15 i7 7700 HQ with GTX 1050 (4 GB Vram) and we test it a bit and you can edit well similar to my Asus Rog but 4k grading with 4k preview can become tricky due to the 4 GB Vram. It works and you can do light grading and even optical flow stuff with it, but Blackmagic says that the minimum for 4k editing is 6 GB Vram so it could happen that the GTX 1050 will run out of Vram and you cannot do the final render even at super slow speed because the gpu ram is full.

To answer your question if you can do 4k editing and grading with a 7700 HQ + GTX 1050 4 GB Vram? Yes you can do it but you may encounter issue with heavy grading and effects. I would stay on the safe side and get a gaming notebook with a 1070 8 GB Vram. Also forget to use these machines on battery power for editing they simply do not work (both the XPS and the Asus Rog)

 

 

38 minutes ago, tugela said:

For RAW essentially the camera has to create a zip file in real time on the fly. How well does your desktop handle that task, to put it into perspective? It will require a significant amount of processing to do that. If it were simply writing the data to storage then little processing would be required, likewise if it was discarding a lot of data during the compression to speed things up. But to keep all of the data while still compressing, that requires processor muscle to do in real time.

The code to implement higher bit rates/depths already exists, so it would already be there if it were that simple. The absence of those codecs means that the hardware encoder inside the new chip is not set up to enable it.

ZIp is a lossless compression and is very different from a lossy compression algorithm like JPG. RAW Light is a lossy compression codec 1:3 to 1:5 (30fps is 1:3, 60 is 1:5) this is why you get about the same bitrate at 30 and 60 fps. Red for their RAW uses wavelets based on the JPEG2000 compression algorithm. So if you export from Resolve a 4k video in JPEG2000 it would be a much better comparison than zip. But even this test is useless because the cpu can have HW optimization for a specific algorithms. You can believe that they are working furiously to port the code to the new chipset, I believe they are simply protecting the C300 II. In 6 month we will know...

Not a good news....

2 hours ago, tugela said:

The RAW data is compressed, and that takes processing power. It is not just read to the card.

Without knowing the technology behind RAW light (wavelets like JPEG2000, REDCODE?) it is hard to judge the computational power needed, but I think the chip are powerful enough for 4k 10bit 422 at least at 30fps.

My opinion, as many others, is that it is only a temporary protection of the C300 II and once they are ok with releasing the firmware they can implement 10bit 422 400 Mbits and/or 8bit 422 300 Mbits. Maybe one factor would be to be able to save to the SD card so the 300 Mbits will be chosen. Although it is possible to do 400 Mbits on SDs, with so many cards brand and models it can become tricky for support and test. I'm skeptical to the 8bit 420 because it make no sense, they already have 8bit 420 so 6 months wait just for going all-I? but again is Canon....

Another theory would be that they need more time to finalize/optimize the XF-AVC for 4k 60p although the C700 does this already but at 810 Mbits so no SD card.....

I have the 24-105 and I'm not a fan of it, I wish Canon would do a 24-70 2.8 with IS... there are rumors but only rumors. I have the 16-35 2.8 II but I tested a friends 16-35 F4 IS and it is a really good lens.

It is now a year that I have the 1Dx II and I do ca. 60% photo and 40% video, mostly around action and sports stuff and some commercials. So for me is the best camera/system available on the market for my usage. It happens quite a bit to do photo and video on the same assignment. Sometime for the photo part I even pull some 4k frames out of the video but for most of the part I switch between video and photo.

I’m sure that there are others like me that wants one single camera that can do both photo and video well but considering the price I’m not sure that a 1Dc II, that would probably be on the same price range of a C200, would have a big market.

They should simply add Clog to the 1Dx II and be done with it. Personally I would prefer to have zebras, parades and a better quality 1080 120fps than Clog.

I think a 5D class camera with a FF 4k 30p, Clog and some video oriented feature would have more market than a 1Dc II.

 

If I would do 90% video I would buy a C200 instead of a 1Dx/1Dc II…

But for my usage I dream that next 1Dx (III) in 2 years will have 4k 60fps Raw light and 4k 120fps MJPG (or whatever codec that would produce great slow-motion), add zebras, parades, and a fully silent mode in photo live view and I will be happy for another 3 years. Not critical for me but many would be happy if it would have 4k h264 100/150 Mbits. Yes I’m just dreaming but with Canon you never know….

14 hours ago, samuel.cabral said:

I just wasn't expecting you to have a 22mm and the awesome 24mm. But gladly you have so the comparison was even fairer. Nice!
So can i assume that the EF performance on a M body is almost like a native lens? Make things easier to build a set!
Maybe soon we will see some (good, please) Speedboosters popping to make things even better.

Hard for me to compare the AF speed because I have 1 1Dx II, 1 1Dx and the M5 so in term of AF they are a bit on the extreme opposite. The DPAF on 1Dx II and the M5 seems to me about the same in term of speed with FF EF lenses. Still the 1Dx II is quite a bit faster with phase detect AF than in DPAF.

On the M5 I use the native M 11-22 and 22 2.0 and I use quite a bit the EF 50 1.2 adapted that works quite well in term of AF, I also use the 8-15 Fisheye and sometime the 24-105 F4. The M5 is for sure not an action camera... but the problem is not too much the AF but the VF blackout.

Bottom-line in video the AF speed of an adapted FF EF lenses is very similar between 1DxII and M5, for photo the 1DxII is quite a bit snappier when not in live view. As I said before DPAF becomes quite slow when using long lenses.

 

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 0:22 AM, samuel.cabral said:

That would be great! Many thanks!

So on the M5 the 24 1.4 L it is a fraction quicker than the 22 2.0 but the difference is very small and imo not relevant. Both are very usable.

In general with DPAF the shorter the focal length is the more similar with phase detection DSLR AF speed is. For example the 24 1.4 there almost no difference between DPAF and phase detect but with the 200-400 f4 at 400 the difference is quite big.

Naturally it is a big difference in FL 35 to 22 so not sure why you want to compare them but IMO the 22 2.0 is a little gem so small yet sharp. The AF is a bit noisier than classical USM lenses. In term of size there is really no contest: http://camerasize.com/compact/#684.349,684.368.2,ha,t. It is also half the price.

 

 

22mm native is not fast but I find usable, the big advantage of this lens is that it is super tiny so I can even keep it in the pockets and it is quite sharp.
I don't have the 35 f2.... but if you want I can compare the 22mm native with the adapted EF 24 1.4 II L?

5 hours ago, samuel.cabral said:

Great info and beautiful images, thanks! 

I didn't know about the small buffer in RAW. So even if hacked, it's not going to be that good for RAW video? That's sad. 

I use my Eos M1 with c-mount lenses and it produces beautiful videos in RAW. 

The buffer is much better than the original M and it is around 18-20 Raw photos and it takes around 8-10 seconds to clear it. It seems big but when you shoot at 7 or 9 fps it is just a two second burst and then you need to wait 10 seconds.... Not sure what it means in regards for RAW video assuming that there will ever be a ML for the M5

Btw the original M was the slowest camera that I ever had.

 

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 7:35 AM, HockeyFan12 said:

Guess what I just bought. 

Yes, both the lens and zoom rocker. 

If nothing else I have a new travel lens for stills.

Have you got it already?

I have an M5 and is my travel camera mostly for photos because my 1dx and 1dx II are too big for that. I had a M before but the M5 it is much better.

I also use the M5 as remote camera or as wide angle second body for some stuff that I cover.

I have only the 11-22 and the 22 2.0 for the rest I use my EF collection.

 

Regarding video I have used only a couple of time a C camera and it is just ok very similar to the 80D, classical canon 1080p

 

For photos:

The good:

+ photo quality, it is good with good DR finally at 100-400 ISO. Classical Canon sensor so I process the Raws as I do with the one for 1Dx. M5 more noisy but to be expected

+ ergonomics

+ touch screen

+ touch screen even when off can be used to change focus point while looking in to EVF, very handy

+ remote port

+ 7/9 fps

+ DPAF very accurate and works even low light. Fast but not blazingly fast.

+ size

+ 11-22 is very very good with IS and tiny and quite affordable. This is why I use it a lot as a second body for wide-angle shoots.

+ 22 2.0 is also very good and super tiny and cheap. A bit slow on the AF side but still usable

+ adapter works well and most EF lens AF work well and quite fast. I have used quite a bit the 24 1.4 and 50 1.2 on it and with great success. I also use the 8-15 fisheye on it quite often

+ wifi

The bad:

- small buffer in RAW

- takes a lot of time to clear the buffer

- much slower than the 1dx in operations like picture review, etc…

- EVF is not great but I hate EVF so maybe I’m not the right guy to comment on it

- no live view while taking burst. A no go for action/sport

- no fully silent mode (fully electronic shutter). Why why and one more time why?!?

 

For video:

+ DPAF very similar to the 1DXII

+ 60fps same quality as 30fps

+ canon colors

- no 4k

- classical soft canon 1080

- less bitrate than the 80D

 

I would not recommend it as primary camera for video there are better choice in the price range.

Where it shines is a travel, backup and eventually B/C camera for canon user thanks to the tiny size but full support including good AF with the EF lens. If my primary system would not be a canon I would not have brought the M5 but for my need is quite good. Of course if it would have had 4k 30p even only at 4:2:0 100 mbits would have been much better for video.

So the 5D/1DxII DCI 4k 4:2:2 8bit MJPG at 500 Mbits that you can edit in real time without transcoding even on a notebook it is insane but at the same time everybody is crying because the C200 does not have a DCI 4k 4:2:2 10bit at 400 Mbits…. and also everybody is eagerly awaiting the GH5 firmware that will allow an edit ready 4k 10bit 4:2:2 at 400 Mbits. But hey 400 Mbits is perfect and 500 is insane...... If you want to edit ready 4k without transcoding in a good quality you will end up with at around 400 Mbits anyhow….

IMO the best B cam for the C200 is another C200 or C200B. It is a big advantage to have two cameras the same that you know the pro and cons, the menus, the customization, the button layout, the expect output, the sensor characteristic, same DOF, same lens and crop factor, NDs, the AF behavior etc… Additionally you have the same battery, same media, same LCD  etc… so if something breaks or is forgotten you mostly have a second one with you. Personally I already hate switching between 5D and 1Dx… So you will save time, have a perfect backup and probably at the save money.

In my case if I will buy the C200 the B cam would be my 1Dx II because I use it a lot for photography and in particular for action photography but if I would only do video probably I would buy a C200 and C200B.

If budget is an issue a C200 and a used 5D IV would be the best compromise IMO.