gt3rs

15 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

An in-depth look at the white paper and 1D X Mark III codec

https://www.eoshd.com/2020/01/canon-1d-x-mark-iii-finally-canon-get-serious-about-dslr-video/

Certainly the best DSLR (note... "DSLR"!) for video on the market at the moment... But those file sizes are media costs are eye-watering for the 5.5K RAW.

In region of $500 for 13 minutes.

The 4K 10bit is more tempting and it's 60p, no crop.

Still, it is in the wrong form factor... Needs to be in a mirrorless camera.

I think the 1D X Mark III will be a great shot getter and sexy gimbal camera though.

Well put thoughts on the article.

A 512 GB card cost 600$ https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1499327-REG/sandisk_sdcfe_512g_ancin_extremepro_compactflash_express_512gb.html?sts=pi&pim=Y and can hold 36 min of 5.5k at 24fps so yes massive but in line with the C500 II at 5.9k will old 30 min. So is the price of RAW. 

I expect people to use normally 4k 10bit and switch to RAW when the maximum grading flexibility or critical shooting conditions.

 

2 minutes ago, Michi said:

True... I guess we'll find out soon enough.

And now that I have scanned through the whitepaper I see there's no C-Log2 and C-Log3 on the 1dx3. It seems those are supported only in Cinema RAW light...

It seems that CLog in 1Dx III is similar to CLog3 on the C200 as this picture seems to imply that the 1Dx III is the B cam in this scenario....

19 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Kinefinity Mavo LF comes quite close to beng in that price bracket! At "only" two grand more than $10K, yet has more FPS. codecs, I/O, etc than the 1D mk3

 

Also you left of the Z Cam F6 which can do 6K @60fps & 4K @120fps, has ZRaw, and is sub $5K

 

Kinefinity Mavo LF has no AF and no screen and no battery at 12k usd, for a minimum working camera you need 13.5k.... http://www.kinefinity.com/shop/mavo_lf_basic/?lang=en it is more close to the C500 II price than 1Dx III

ZCam has no AF too and need battery, screen etc.. so is not really 5k usd….

3 minutes ago, Michi said:

On the official canon site they state 30min recording limit (7.5min for 120p)

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/cameras/eos-dslr-and-mirrorless-cameras/dslr/eos-1d-x-mark-iii/

But on the withe paper that I posted above they have a table with the max recording time per format that does not make sense if is 30min limit.

Let say 50% chane there is the 30 min limit

From what I read so far

The pros:

-FF 5.5k 12bit RAW at 30fps with DPAF (60fps with no DPAF) and with 4k DCI 10bit 4:2:2 LOG proxy

-Oversampled FF 4K DCI or UHD at 30fps with DPAF (60fps with no DPAF) 10bit 4:2:2 LOG

-1.34 Cropped 4K DCI or UHD at 60fps with DPAF 10bit 4:2:2 LOG

-FHD 120fps with DPAF 10bit 4:2:2 LOG up to  470 Mbits/s (to be seen if the image quality is improved compared to 1Dx II)

-Various encoding format and bit rates, from lgop h264 8bit, h265 10bit LOG to RAW

-Focus peaking and assist

-Integrated wifi

-Video can be saved to two cards in parallel (exception is RAW that is saved in one card and a 4k up to 10bit proxy in the other one)

-Unlimited recording time (some sites reports that there is a limit and some not)

-Fully weather sealed with no fan

 

The cons:

-RAW format is not Canon Raw Lite so files are bigger ca. 30% more and the workflow maybe cumbersome especially at the beginning. Plugins should be available for Avid and FCPX. Resolve and Premiere?

-No DPAF in FF 50-60fps

-No EVF so no RF mount (would have been cool to use the RF ND adapter)

-No flip screen

-No waveform or zebra

-No audio at 120fps (not that I really care)

-Price should have been around 5.5k usd to match the resolution ?

 

The unknown:

Usable DR both in RAW and 10bit

Overall video quality

Rolling shutter FF and Crop

120fps FHD video quality

Sensitivity, they claim 1 stop more sensitivity, let see…

 

Overall much more than what I was expecting and not really typical Canon.

2 minutes ago, crevice said:

You’re mistaken. This camera does not have rawlite. This is full on raw. It seems they are keeping rawlite on their cinema cameras. 

It is not canon raw lite but it uses some kind of size reduction 3 to 5x https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/1d-x-mark-iii/resources/Canon_EOS_1DX_Mark_III_Video_White_Paper.pdf "While the bit rate reduction strategy used in the creation of the 5.5K RAW file format is very effective (reducing the file size by a factor between 3 and 5, depending upon the level of detail  in the scene and its temporal resolution), the recorded files are still quite large as shown in Table 2. "

C200 4k is 1Gbps, 1Dx III 5.5k is 1.8 Gbps so it is around 30% less efficient

It is very confusing as the spec on canon USA and Europe says it can AF in RAW but not at 60fps. 

Also in RAW it can create 4k mp4 proxy.

same as 1dx ii so around 1.34x

Confirmed DPAF is available in 4k dci crop at

Recording Sizes and Format

NTSC

5.5K RAW 
(5472 x 2886)

59.94 fps* 
29.97 fps 
24.00 fps 
23.98 fps

RAW

4K DCI 
(4096 x 2160)

59.94 fps* 
29.97 fps 
24.00 fps 
23.98 fps

ALL-I
IPB

4K UHD 
(3840 x 2160)

59.94 fps* 
29.97 fps

ALL-I
IPB

4K DCI (cropped) 
(4096 x 2160)

59.94 fps 
29.97 fps 
24.00 fps 
23.98 fps

ALL-I
IPB

Full HD 
(1920 x 1080)

119.90 fps** 
59.94 fps 
23.98 fps^

ALL-I
IPB

29.97 fps

ALL-I
IPB
IPB (Light)
 

* AF does not function. 
** Audio not recorded at High Frame Rate 119.90 fps recording 
^ 24p recording will be supported through firmware update after shipping.

12 minutes ago, Mokara said:

That is compressed RAW (an actual file). A 16 bit 20 mpixel data feed is 40MB of data, that is what is going into the buffer. It is then processed and packaged into a file, that is where the bottleneck is. The buffer itself must be able to accept at least 800 MB/s to meet the specs. 

Again, you are missing the point, it is irrelevant what a card is capable of, it is what the camera is capable of that counts, and that is approximately 1000 frames at the spec frame rate.

You don't need a buffer to take up the entire 1000 frames before writing, writing will be going on while the buffer is filled, which means that you can have a much smaller buffer and still get those 1000 frames at that frame rate. Let me provide a visual analogy since text is not doing it for you. Think of it as a bottle with a hole in it. Water is running in at the same time it is running out, but if it is running in faster than it is running out, eventually the bottle will fill and you cant get any more water in. 

So, if data is going into the buffer at 800 MB/s and leaving at 500 MB/s, with 1000 frames at 20 fps, the buffer would fill at 15 GB of RAM. If you write to the card at a higher speed then your buffer would necessarily be smaller to hit the same 1000 frame limit. A 600 MB/s write rate would mean 10 GB of RAM, while 700 MB/s write would require a buffer of 5 GB of RAM. Cellphones have 8GB of RAM, it is not out of the question that a large flagship camera has more. This new camera probably has 16 GB.

The fact that there is a maximum frame number cited in the specs means that the camera does eventually bottleneck.

I'm a software engineer so I know how things work and you have a history of made up story in this forum. First you should know that camera uses a 14bit RAW file and not 16bit. View that the file is 25 MB you assuming that you can prepare it in real time it is absolutely possible with a 1/3 of the max speed of a cfexpress card write at 500 MB/s card indefinitely. In fact the spec says 1000+ (plus means more than that) I think the mechanical mirror running at full speed for minutes would be the issue and not the end to end pipeline speed. In fact the camera can move 12bit compressed RAW 5.4k infinitely and the compression is much more expensive that simple move the raw data to a file.

8 minutes ago, Mokara said:

20 mpixel raw is more like 35-40 MB, assuming 16 bits of data per pixel. The camera will be writing to the card while filling the buffer, but at some point the buffer will fill and frame rate will drop like a stone. That apparently happens at around 1000 frames. You don't need to have a full 1000 frames worth of RAM available. Some lesser amount will be enough since data is being sent off to the card while the camera is still collecting data.

The cards may be able to sustain those write speeds, it does NOT mean that the camera can actually deliver data at that rate. The way it works is that raw data is written into the buffer as a data stream, it then undergoes some processing and rearrangement into a form that can be saved, after which it is written to the card. The bottleneck is usually that middle step, so even though you might have a superfast card, you are still limited by the processing power of the camera and the physical size of it's buffer.

Do you have a 1Dx II? I have it and the files are around 25 MB RAW. Also the leaked spec mentions 1000+ ….. so back to the ca. 500 MB/s that is 1/3 of the spec of most cfexpress cards so doable. 

Even 12 GB of RAM would be insane for a camera.

To put some reality in to the crippling story, I really think that this time Canon did the max that was possible in a FF weather sealed fan less hybrid DSLR.
There is no other Full Frame camera < 10k usd that come close to these rumored specs

 

Full frame camera that can record internally  > 5k RAW 60fps + good video AF:

 

Canon C700 FF >33k usd  (only with optional codex recorder 7k >usd)

Canon C500 II 16k usd

 

Full frame camera that can record internally  > 5k RAW 60fps:

 

RED MONSTRO 8K VV >54K usd

Canon C700 FF >33k usd  (only with optional codex recorder 7k >usd)

Kinefinity Mavo LF >12k usd

Canon C500 II 16k usd

Canon 1Dx III 6.5k usd

 

Full frame camera that can record internally  > 5k RAW 30fps:

 

RED MONSTRO 8K VV >54K usd

Sony VENICE  > 42k usd (only with optional recorder > 6k usd)

Canon C700 FF >33k usd  (only with optional codex recorder 7k >usd)

Kinefinity Mavo LF >12k usd

Canon C500 II 16k usd

Canon 1Dx III 6.5k usd

 

Full frame camera that can record internally  >= 4k RAW:

 

RED MONSTRO 8K VV >54K usd

Sony VENICE  > 42k usd (only with optional recorder > 6k usd)

Canon C700 FF >33k usd  (only with optional codex recorder >7k usd)

Kinefinity Mavo LF 12k usd

Canon C500 II 16k usd

Canon 1Dx III 6.5k usd

Alexa Mini LF > 58k usd

Alexa LF > 98k usd

 

Full frame camera that can record internally  >= 4k 30fps 10bit 4:2:2 LOG + good video AF

 

Sony FX9 11k usd

Canon C700 FF >33k usd  

Canon C500 II 16k usd

Canon 1Dx III 6.5k usd

 

Full frame camera that can record internally  >= 4k 30fps 10bit 4:2:2 LOG

 

RED MONSTRO 8K VV >54K usd

Sony VENICE  > 42k usd

Canon C700 FF >33k usd

Sony FX9 11k usd

Kinefinity Mavo LF >12k usd

Canon C500 II 16k usd

Canon 1Dx III 6.5k usd

Alexa Mini LF > 58k usd

Alexa LF > 98k usd

Panasonic SH1 4k usd

 

Naturally this is based on rumored spec and it just a spec comparison only, image quality, ease of use and job suitability is another story.

Again if you are video only a C200 or FX9 or C500 II is probably a better investment, for hybrid shooter like me it seem a huge upgrade from 1Dx II for video.

Then maybe in a week Sony announce the famous ready to launch since 2018 A7s III with 6k RAW at 60 fps with AF for 3.5k usd, but right now there is really nothing close.

Not sure if is a trusted source but here they say that DPAF 4k dci crop 60fps is active 

http://thenewcamera.com/canon-1dx-mark-iii-video-details/

27 minutes ago, Mokara said:

The specs say the buffer is 1000 frames. That is a lot, but not unlimited. That corresponds to ~50 seconds at 20 fps, which is more than you will ever need shooting stills. After that you will be limited by whatever the file write rate is. To have unlimited raw stills at 20 fps you would need a card write speed of ~ 800 MB/s, and somehow I rather doubt that the camera is capable of doing that.

At 25 MB x 1000 frames = 25 GB Ram I really doubt that the camera has that amount of Ram.

You need around 500 MB/s for unlimited buffer and cfexpress can do 1400.....

1 hour ago, Django said:

- DPAF (slaughters Panasonics DFD AF)

- Native lens selection

Nothing odd about it. If ain't broke don't fix it.

1D line has never been about resolution. And I'm pretty sure we're approaching mechanical limits for FPS. 

What does matter and has vastly improved in the Mark III is:

10-bit HEIF  (vs 8-bit JPG)

AF (28 times the resolution, almost 100% coverage, new deep learning AI tech, eye AF)

MF Peaking, Focus Guide

FPS (16 to 20 vs 14 to 16)

CFExpress  (five times the buffer depth)

Twice file transfer speed

..etc

This update is a lot more substantial than lets say the A9 II which rehashes the same sensor, AF system, burst rate.. and (8-bit) video specs!

 

 

Also

- 20 fps fully silent with servo AF. In some occasions the 1Dx II is too loud for the environment.

- Integrated WiFi, the dongle is a real pita

- many choices of video bitrates

 

Curios to see:

120fps quality, hope is a bit improved although I doubt

4k FF quality

If it DPAF in 4k 60fps crop

If it can record video on two cards simultaneously

Rolling shutter in 5.4 and 4k and in electronic shutter

Unlimited recording time

 

5 hours ago, Mokara said:

Probably because the amount of data the camera has to handle is too large. They don't do these things for no reason, it is usually because of limitations in the hardware.

Well, with stills the raw data is going into the buffer, so it does not impose a resource drain on DPAF. When the buffer is full the fps will drop by a lot. With video there is a constant requirement for compression (there is a 1:2 compression ratio for RAW as per Androidlad's specs), so there will be a difference.

It has unlimited buffer in RAW for stills. CRAW is also unlimited and is compressed. 

1 hour ago, Video Hummus said:

Big note on the insta 360 One-R. It has a 1-inch sensor.

So hopefully it’s 360 abilities will be well above their past 360 camera.

I like the idea of it being modular. I’m just a bit worried about it’s survivability.  

Very curios too about the new Insta... I have a one x and I really like but I hope for a bump in video quality... Modular system is interesting but how solid will it be?

Yep for video only a C200 is a better buy but best combination would be a C500 II + 1Dx III.

The 1Dx III can shoot stills at 20fps with DPAF 12 bit RAW.... I’m wondering if it would have been so impossible to do 24fps RAW with DPAF? At 60fps is probably too much but 24 is not so far off from 20.....

Let’s get real which hybrid camera can do?:

FF internal RAW >= 4k at 60fps 
FF 4k 60fps
FF 4k 30fps with DPAF

Actually which cinema camera can do FF internal RAW > 4k and at what price? Without cooling fan and fully weather sealed?

The key question for me is how good is 4k FF (oversampled?) and if the crop 4k 60fps has DPAF

 

17 minutes ago, Django said:

No AF on 6K RAW & 4K60p seems like reasonable compromises for everything else you’re getting.

Hopefully they will have DPAF at least on 4k60p cropped so the same as 1Dx II....
I understand the challenge to have DPAF on RAW although the C500 II can do it but it also has cooling fan and almost 3 times the cost.

If the above list is true the question is what are all the limitations for every mode.... like DPAF, Log, etc...

Hopefully it can do 5.4k RAW 24, 25 with DPAF and 4k DCI crop 60p also with DPAF and CLog.

If this is true: https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?threads/here-are-the-full-specifications-for-the-canon-eos-1d-x-mark-iii.38019/page-2#post-806877

RAW movie 5.472k DCI
Canon Log (OFF / ON)
Recording format RAW (12bit)
Audio Linear PCM
Movie recording Image quality
RAW (5472 x 2886) DCI (15,792,192 pixels Cinema 2600Mbps 1:1 straight-read)
4K DCI (4096 x 2160)
4K DCI crop (4096 x 2160)
4K UHD (3840 x 2160)
Full HD (1920 x 1080)
Frame rate
119.9p / 59.94p / 29.97p / 24.00p / 23.98p (NTSC)
100.0p / 50.00p / 25.00p / 24.00p (PAL)
*High-speed frame Rate video: 119.9p / 100.0p

 

I think the frame rate are for Full HD as I really doubt it can record 5.4k RAW at 120 fps...…..

Entire spec list? Not even the sensor resolution is in there.... Nothing new on the list that was not in the pre announcement. 

8K or above is very beneficial for reframing 360 videos. The challenge is to fit two big enough sensors + lenses so close to each other. So a dual m43 camera would be super but the stitching at close distance will be a big challenge. Having multiple m43 sensors will make the size too big to profit from the amazing freedom that you have put in on long stick. The Qoocam with 2 1/1.7'' sensors and 8K is a first step in to getting high quality reframing... curious to see how this segment evolve in the next few years probably next step is 1'' sensor.

One think that I do not understand is why canon is not offering compatibility with hot shoe EVFs like the one from the M6 II: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1318788-REG/canon_1727c001_evf_dc2_electronic_viewfinder_black.html So you can have both OVF and EVF.... They could even sell a premium one....