gt3rs

9 minutes ago, Django said:

yeah I don't need 8K60p. so lets see, the grip + battery solution is elegant but expensive and you still need to swap batteries during the day:

3500€ body + 400€ grip + minimum 400€ (for 4 batteries). boom we're talking R3 money.

Kondor Blue Dummy battery ($40) to FXLion V-mount (180€) seems way more affordable plus no battery swap.

How is the V-mount attached to the cage? Almost looks like your on a hot/cold shoe.

What about Anton Bauer base battery kit (370€)? I like that it has quick release with mount holes. seems pretty elegant and they have a kit with dummy battery to P-Tap. 68Wh capacity should give you even more runtime than the FXLion?

I have this https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-eos-r5-r5c-r6-black-mamba-camera-cage-3233b.html (there is also this one https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-black-mamba-camera-cage-for-canon-eos-r5-c-3890.html  for the R5c version but covers the remote terminal and I need that for remotes ) this smaller one also would work https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-black-mamba-camera-half-cage-cable-clamp-for-canon-eos-r5-r5-c-r6-3656.html

And this to mount the battery on top of the cage: https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-mini-v-mount-battery-plate-2987.html
The setup is clumsy but very solid.

The grip here in CH went down to around 300 euro and you need 3 battery as one comes with the camera so around 600 euro. The R3 you would also need 1 more battery too.


The anton bauer is also an option, it is bigger and is heavier at 700g vs 300g of the FXLion Nano One (although if you add the cage ca 300g and the mount were are basically the same) but it does not have USB PD so for me is a no go. The FXLion Nano Two is 98wh and 520g will run for 5-6h. The Nano can be charged with any USB-C charger make it very practical. 
Would the anton bauer have USB-PD I would have probably gone that route. New there is this option too that 
Kondor blue offer that would make the anton bauer also PD enabled but the cable seems quite clumsy :  https://kondorblue.com/products/16-d-tap-to-usb-c-9v-3a-regulated-blue-braided-straight

A small anton bauer base + 9v dummy battery to dtap would be also a great solution but does not exist.

If you want to risk you could mount a 45w battery pack on the hotshoe and run the USB-C probably with 100 euro you cover all but for what I do is way too risky.

As you can see I did a lot of research, my solution works for me but is not great.
I still feel that a battery grip is the best option if no use of 8k 50/60. You can research a bit and some people have good luck with non oem LPE6 that are cheaper than the original. 










 

47 minutes ago, Django said:

It's almost a no brainer on paper but I keep hearing about the dreadful battery life. I just have to wonder how bad is it? If the camera keeps dying on me this sounds like overheat caveat all over again. How many batteries do I need for a 4 to 5 hour shoot ? what portable USB-C external power works for it ?

 

The LPN6NH would give you around 50 min of continuous recording or 60 min standby and this is the real issue. No matter what it chews battery, one trick is that if you hit play then it does not chew battery in standby.
Two LPE6NH in the battery grip it will give you around 100+ min continuous recording. So for 4-5h you probably need at least 4 LPE6NH battery. 

If you don't care about 8k 50/60 one solution is kondor blue dummy battery https://kondorblue.com/products/d-tap-to-canon-lpe6-dummy-battery-cable  and if you have V Mount battery already you are set to go. A FXLion Nano One (one of the smaller V Mount battery around) gives me around 3h or recording a normal V Mount probably 6h+. The advantage of the dummy battery you don't risk to break any ports. I use this setup but with the FXLion that has a USB-C port too so when I use 8k 50/60 I simply plug the USB-C cable. 

USB-C you need a power bank that is 45w and there are now very common and quite cheap, smallrig has some mounting solutions https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-holder-for-portable-power-banks-bub2336.html . The big issue is the fragility of the USB-C port so either you use the supplied cable protector (piece of crap) or at least an half cage and the small rig cable protector (more solid + you can have a full HDMI too). 
A 45w power bank will also charge the batteries while plugged in to the camera.

Bottom-line the more elegant solution is the battery grip, no need for a cage, no dangling cables, no ports to be broken. But no 8k50/60.

So my solution is no LPE6 at all, cage + dummy battery + FX Lion One Nano + USB C when needed. But ugly and expensive...
I wish they would do a battery grip that would supply enough power for 8k 50/60 then all this frankenmonster would be over...

13 hours ago, Django said:

@herein2020 Thanks for the feedback, good to know you've sorted out your issues with R5!

Well 8K compressed definitely tilts the balance more in R5 favour now. 

I really don't get why R3, the flagship doesn't have at least 6K ALL-I/IPB. Sounds like a real oversight.

Only problem I have with R5 is the line-skipped FF 4K60p.

It looks like for up to 4K60p R3 & R6ii are the best options. For higher resolution its R5/R5C followed by R3.

Decisions, decisions.

R5c 4k60 is oversampled from 8k so same quality as the 4k 30HQ.
Yes R3 has only RAW in 6k while R5c and R5 have also 8k h265. But RAW in general is easier to edit but it really depends on the software and the machine, of course it takes more storage.

R5 4k 60 and 120 are not the best in class but I do agree with @herein2020 that are more than usable.
As pointed out by herein2020 R5 does not have the new hotshoe so you cannot use the Tascam xlr thingy.... not sure is a topic for you or not.

 

2 minutes ago, Django said:

 

But that does bring upon body size and ergonomics and that's imo another bonus for R3 imo. 

The bigger size and grip probably balances bigger EF/RF lenses better than the smaller R5/R5C/R6.

From my time with the 1Dx II and 1Dx III I would say no, it does not really help that much the grip. And you can always use the grip on a R5 but is a pita on gimbals and imo does not help that much...
For vertical then is a another story but with R5 8k why would you shot vertical instead of just cropping as you have even more room to reframe?

I'm not sure that the video improvements of the R3 are worth the 1.5k euro difference vs R5..... if you plan to use a lot 6k RAW 50/60 then yes if not then imo is an overpriced R6 II.... 
 

@Django both are very good cameras with each some drawbacks.

For video my A cam is the R5c and B cam is the R5. Any framerate above 30fps the R5c is sharper and 120 you can record audio on an SD. So for my usage is better as I shot a lot in 8k 50 and slow mo.
XAVC, S35 RAW, Waveform, Peeking during AF, and face only AF, unlimited recording, being the other keys advantage of the R5c

On IBIS, in my experience it is super valuable between 30mm and 100mm but not good below 30mm and not really useful and sometime bad above 100mm. Here is the catch, as you cannot disable IBIS and keep IS on, the R5c with a wide angle IS lens is better than the R5 no wobble but you get IS. As I already posted with the 100-500, that I use a lot handled for video, I get better results in the R5c than the R5 as on the R5 sometime in fast pans it jumps and I think it is the IBIS.

I use quite a bit a gimbal for tracking shoot and there having IS but no IBIS at 24mm it creates a more stable picture, no wobble but yet IS helps with the small jitters.

Bottomline if you use a lot 35, 50, 85 primes then the R5 IBIS is super valuable for the reset especially with IS lenses in my experience is counterproductive.

This scene would not work with IBIS due to wobble, but IS helps on the gimbal with the vibrations, so R5c wins in this situations:

This one is handled with 100-500 on the R5c so only IS:

Battery is the biggest issue of the R5c, the grip solves it but is expensive and no support of 8k RAW 50/60, the alternative also expensive is half or full cage, smallrig small v mount plate and FXLION Nano One + kondorblue dummy battery (I use the USB-C cable when I do 8K RAW 50/60). But it makes the overall setup bulky and cumbersome the only good thing is that with two battery you basically go all day. So yes R5c battery sucks big time

Due to this the TCO of the R5c is more expensive than R5 and you really cannot use just 1 internal battery…

On the lag I really don’t see the problem, here a sequence of photos at 20fps all perfectly sharp and I could follow the player easily on the EVF, on my 1DX III I was not getting a 100% ratio in a sequence like this and less frames too: 

On the R3 I think is overpriced for what it is and I’m not going back to 20-24 mpix, I so much easy to be a bel to crop a bit so I can leave some safety room.

Why not buying a used R5 you can use it for a few months and see if it is perfect for your usage or not. If not you probably sell it for just a few euro less of what you paid? R5c used are quite rare....

I did finally edit a first version of the SA video.

Canon R5c, DJI RS3 Pro, RF 70-200 2.8, RF 100-500, RF 400 2.8, EF 24-70 2.8. All shoot 8K RAW 50fps other than the Cheetahs running that are at 4k 100fps.
 

19 hours ago, Davide DB said:

@gt3rs did you clean those clips? 

All reviews said that RAW is very noisy but you clips seems perfect.

Only the leopard at iso 16'000 has NR applied, mostly chroma noise reduction. All the others have zero NR applied. 

RAW is more noisy and rightly so as most camera apply NR to 10bit Log, RAW should have none (I think a bit is there anyway but not sure). Imo this is great as you can fine tune the NR that you need, you can even go fancy and apply NR to only specific area or color range. 
If you open a R5 RAW picture in LR you will see that by default it apply color noise reduction, so some NR on RAW is needed even for photos. Although imo a well exposed ISO 800 (base iso) RAW video does not need any NR.

Not knowing the settings and what was done in post out of the RAW of the video that you posted is impossible to judge imo.

In general I find it better to expose to the right with Canon RAW and lower the black in post than raising the shadow.    

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Is EIS absent of 8K 50/60p I guess because it's RAW?

But not on 4K 100/120fps, correct?

Digital IS is available in all modes other than RAW. 8k 50/60 is RAW only. 8k 24-30 MP4 supports Digital IS, 4k 100/120 also.

33 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Lovely use : ) OIS too, I guess? And no bean bag this time :- )

OIS is always on and it helps on the gimbal with the mini vibration of the jeep

One more with a more complex movement with the jeep this one with pre-focusd and then AF locked, 8K 50 RAW 1/100 slow down  2x, gimbal 70-200 

One simpler scenario for AF, R5c on gimbal handheld on the vehicle moving, 70-200 at 2.8, 8K RAW 50fps slowed down 2x.  
 

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Well, you didn't lose it, just readjust the AF... ; )

 

Other than the bean bag, what else you used to stabilize it?

OIS?

What lens? The expensive Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II USM?

EIS too, I guess?

 

What frame rate acquisition?

 

Impressive result... : ) If this works in a jungle, imagine now for street photography!

25 fps, only lens IS, lens Canon RF 400 2.8 IS (rented). I don't use EIS as I'm RAW only other than when I need 120fps that I need to use 10bit log. 

On long lenses 70-200, 100-500 and 400 in my experience IS works better than IS+IBIS, and as you cannot turn off IBIS and keep IS on the R5 I always use the R5c for long lens work especially handled. 

21 hours ago, Davide DB said:

It is impressive how the AF chases the animals and is not distracted by the bushes in the foreground.

At one point it seems to focus on the logs but then follows the cheetahs into the bushes naturally.

I was also very surprised how well it managed this tricky situation. Overall AF is quite reliable but is not always perfect. This is example when it lost it in the easiest phase but the condition where really challenging.

R5c 8K RAW 1/50 ISO 16'000 (yes not a typo ISO 16k) 400mm 2.8, AF tracking, on a bean bag, it was basically night and my driver did not believe I could film in that light. The beginning is out of focus until I could select the young leopard face, at 0.19 is when the camera loses him. 

On 12/10/2022 at 10:42 AM, ntblowz said:

I think Canon could really have to fix the R5C's usability, atm it's borderline usable but could be much better, like there is no reason not to shoot videos on still mode, or using dpaf Ii on cine mode as it is the same sensor! And only 40min on standby..

The two quick fixes that they should do is offering a battery grip that allows 8k 50/60 basically solving the battery issue and re-enable video in photo mode (why not give user the choice? They could even have a custom function that you can enable and disable video mode in photo).

If you don't use 8k50/60 the battery grip makes it more useable, I use mine a lot in 8k 50 RAW so I have the V-Mount battery with USB-PD mounted over the cage. Not great but the only other camera than can do 8k RAW 50/60 is the Nikon Z9 or REDs... 

But we are really off topic this should belong on the R5c thread and not the R6 II one.

23 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Do you have a small clip of the cheetah with AF?

R5c RF 100-500 handled, Center area AF (large) max speed and responsiveness, 4k 100 fps (conformed to 25fps), Log3, unedited just Canon LUT applied.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM1djr8LbBM

2 hours ago, ntblowz said:

Well the weakest part of the R5C is the fan, any particles can come through the vent, so the fan can be stuck with sand particles which can make it go screaming or grinding noise

I used in mine on snow, rain and Africa outside on a jeep in a very sandy  environment never had any issue.

The battery I fully agree is pita. 

7 hours ago, ntblowz said:

I am actually not that enthusiastic on R5C after using it 6 months later... the C70 got a lot more use nowadays, and sometimes if we are out shooting remotely R5 get picked over R5c because of battery and weather sealing against all weather and condition.  We got a tiny sand stuck on the on switch of C70 which we have to send in to fix when we did a shoot on the dune, the R5 have no problem whatsoever.

So R5C is mostly a tripod camera with usb power adapter connect to the main for us nowadays beside acting as still cam.  My friend also use R5C as tripod camera with v mount battery while he roam around on his C70 too.

R5 and R5c have exactly the same weather sealing and same rating.

On 12/4/2022 at 10:45 AM, filmmakereu said:

  

Any estimation how bad rolling shutter is on R5 C 8K50P/60P?

around 15ms same as 24-30p, 8ms 120p

the above chart is misleading as it seems for photo not video, r3 is 9.9 in ff 24-60

At this point cinematic = is not a still picture 😂😂 

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

One note of caution re. this control of focus breathing and that is I don’t think it simply works with all lenses, but specific ones. Sony at least has a list. Not sure about Canon…

At the moment it seems a huge list 🙂: https://cam.start.canon/en/H001/supplement_0160.html 

27 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

 

 

Shutter lag didn't even cross my mind, it could be a combination of EVF and shutter lag for my R5. Or it is still possible my R5 simply has more lag than it is supposed to; my brief R7 tests show a big improvement. CPS didn't seem to have an official test for this, in the ticket notes all they said was that they compared it to another R5.....no help at all if the second R5 they compared it to had the same problem.

I definitely don't need a 1DXIII for the things I shoot, my 5DIV was more than adequate for everything I threw at it.

Mirrorless will always have some latency as the sensor needs to be read so some ms goes there then image need to be processed, then displayed compared to a glass only that is the OVF.

Now is the R5 worst than others? There is a video on YouTube that compares the latency of Sony A1 vs R5 and both have around of 250ms total latency with the R5 20ms more mostly due to the shutter lag imo (be aware that there is the human latency too in that test). Now compared to the only mechanical one of the 5D IV that is 83ms + human latency you will notice but both would need some anticipation anyway. 

My point is that as being constant this latency your brain will get used to it and notice less or none. In addition, with mirrorless, other than strobe situation, you can take 20, 30 or even 40 fps now getting much more chances to get the perfect timing. 

Drones with digital transmission have the same issue and yet people can maneuver them in incredibly challenging situation mostly due to getting used and anticipate.

Assuming that your R5 was configured correctly you will get very similar latency with R3, A1 or R7.

Really not sure why you cannot do it with an EVF..... but people are different so fair enough. Then you should buy a used 1Dx III until you find one. 

I'm still a bit puzzled as is mentioned the strobe example, where you are in single shoot mode so in the right settings R3 and R5 both runs at 120 fps refresh, now the R3 can maintain this even at 30 fps making is blackout free but the lag is the same so in a single shoot there are no difference.
Btw there is another lag that is a shutter lag that is a different story, and this is 83ms in machinal and 50ms in ES for the R5, 5IV is 58ms (plus 86ms blackout) and R3 is 20ms in ES.

Some more examples where timing is key with strobes but if you do it a lot you will notice as your brain will start to anticipate the "lag"

7 hours ago, Django said:

Your issue prompted me to investigate on my end so I popped on my Speedlite flash last night on the R6 having my nephew around and tried to catch random split second movements and to my surprise I found it was pretty easy to nail shots. I also couldn't notice any significant lag from the EVF when set to smooth. So I don't know if its a user case thing,  if R5 and its 45MP somehow increases the lag, if you got a lemon or wether ballerinas are just much harder to shoot than an 8 year-old (I'd assume so!) but for my expectations the R6 works just fine even for flash photography.

Since you've also got an R7 have you noticed any difference concerning EVF lag with your R5? 

I also never had a problem with lag on R5 and strobes, the only thing I need is to disable exposure simulation as it would be all black in scenarios like this one

23 hours ago, Django said:

As for OVF/EVF well if you're using ES then of course blackout disapears and you might have more keepers but that doesn't eliminate EVF lag, adds RS artefacts and you lose 14-bit IQ. That probably doesn't matter as much to you then nailing the shot given your type of extreme action work (impressive shots btw). R3 would be better for the EVF but also 50% more fps (30fps vs 20fps) in full 14-bit RAW and lower RS. But I understand 45mp may ultimately trump those specs/IQ if you crop a lot.

 

The 14-bit gives you max 2/3 of a stop and only up to iso 160 from 200 on no difference: https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS R3,Canon EOS R3(ES),Canon EOS R5,Canon EOS R5(ES). 
This is why I shoot in ES most of the time other than the few times I need max DR and I can use ISO 100 or ISO 400 (btw the R3 has less DR than R5 at iso 400 mechanical)


The key differentiator of the R3 imo is the very fast rolling shutter so for somebody shooting any ball related sports it may make a big difference. My grip with the R3 is the price, it should be more on the A9 range than on the A1/Z9 range....

Overall price performance the R6 II is much better than the R3, the same for R5 vs R3....

R3 should have had the same spec but with a 45 Mpix sensor then would be worth the price imo.... R1?

3 hours ago, Django said:

Never meant to single out the FX30. Really all I'm saying is I'd like mirrorless manufacturers in general to focus bit more on RS. We've got 10-bit log, we've got RAW, ProRes, 4K120/6K/8K etc. But read-out times are still average to poor on most of these prosumer cameras. I understand stacked sensor tech is still fairly new and expensive, I just can't wait to see it in every hybrid. XH2S is the only affordable large sensor camera that seems to sport one at the moment.

A1, Z9, have stacked sensors, but none provides better RS in FF than traditional CMOS. 

R3 has stacked sensor and is definitely better 9,9ms in 6K and 6,6ms in S35 but is half the pixels than A1 Z9 R5 and so on...

I would not take the R5 on sales as a metric as I would guess that the R5 is the most sold R series model, so you get more on the used marked.

Regarding the EVF latency I'm really not sure what to say and it is probably that some people adapt better than the others. One thing is for sure my two R5 and my one R5C behave exactly the same, but they are also configured the same. 

I was surprised how quickly I adjusted from 1Dx III OVS/mirror blackout to R5 EVF 20 fps (I use 90% ES). I have more keepers while tracking & panning with the R5 than the 1Dx III and this it is what it counts for me.

This is why I never moved to the R3 as I prefer to have the 45mpix than the better EVF....