Django

40 minutes ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

ZV-E1 and A7RV have a new dedicated AI processor (absent from the other bodies) which is used to implement these new subject-detection and tracking features that go beyond the capabilities of the older products in some ways. While some version of the algorithms could probably be implemented on the older hardware, it would probably be a pain for the engineers to try to make the new algorithms that were developed for the new AI processor work on old hardware.

Yes yes I'm aware of that. But a lot of things like focus compensation and basic animal eye AF don't require the new AI chip. They were there in A7IV which doesn't have it. The AI chip obviously enhances the AF and allows all the auto-framing stuff and that's not something you'd expect to be ported over to older models. But even simple things like the new menus for A7SIII or shutter angle for the FX3/FX30 should be really easy to implement but no dice. The most frustrating for those users is complete radio silence despite numerous rants from even Sony ambassadors. 

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

We should meet up some time and do a photo walk or something now that I live only 2 hours away from Paris by train.

I was there last weekend actually, but family stuff for a few days.

I didn't know about the Nikon place/event, - could be interesting even though I have not been a Nikon shooter in over a decade now.

Sounds good shoot me a PM next time your coming up! 😉 

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

When it comes to the camera industry, certain folks such as Canon and Leica seem to have a lot of brand loyalty from their older fan base as does Nikon just because of their perceived established history.

It's more than just a legacy thing. Canon & Nikon at the DSLR height really took care of their customers with loyalty programs, pro services etc. For major sporting events they have their infamous stockpile rooms available to sponsored photogs:

Canon I feel go a step further and since they have the cine line offer services at their Burbank facility in LA. Here in Paris, if I have an issue I can call and meet someone. Nikon used to have a walk-in office Boulevard Beaumarchais, as well as the Nikon School. They do have Nikon Plaza now in the 6ème, pretty cool location too with interesting events and of course the Nikon Film Festival which has become a huge thing in France.

Leica are on a similar but different path. Much more intimate. You have official boutiques in every major city. The staff there are extremely knowledgeable and passionate and every shop has their own certified Leica engineer in his white lab coat. Its not just for show as he will fix your camera on the spot. It's basically the traditional experience you'd get at a high-end watchmaker or hand tailor.

This type of service to me is invaluable and definitely builds a human connection with the company and hence, loyalty.

Sony I'm afraid has nothing of the sort AFAIK. You have an issue, you file a ticket online and have to send the camera/lens back to some warehouse in the Netherlands, if they even accept your claim (I've had mine rejected, no dispute possible).

Imaging is just a fraction of their other core businesses. What they have been very strong at, is social media presence, especially YouTube. They keep converting influencers by basically buying them out, luring them to exotic locations for camera releases and then making deals with them. Its fair business I guess but a little disheartening. I've had several Canon shooters I follow switch overnight, no real explanation.

Anyways, I am a Sony shooter. Not really by choice but because the industry basically demands it. They make good products no doubt, lousy policies though. Its strictly business to them, zero customer care. So yeah, loyalty wise its no surprise people dip in & out with them. My $0.02c.

archaic motion? 24p is still the current cine standard. double frame rate output is literally what is called the soap opera effect:

Creating frames in-between the 24 original frames makes the movie (24FPS) look like a soap opera (30/60FPS), and this is something that many viewers don't like. 

Why does 60fps look like a soap opera?

It's due to motion. Soap Operas use cheaper cameras that shoot in 60 FPS rather than film that is 24 FPS. Basically, you've become accustomed to the dreamlike motion of 24 FPS being interpolated for 60 Hz TVs and now attribute higher frame-rates like 48 FPS to that of a lower quality production.

haven't we been through this before? not sure why you're getting so offended, you're the one throwing the word "cinematic" around. Sure takes more than a LUT to achieve the look. correct fps is a good place to start but hey keep ignoring this advice and do as you please. just don't get mad if people call out the videoish look of such motion, I'm far from being alone on this. in fact you are probably the only person I know around here or even on YT who consistently outputs 60p on a cine cam.

60p output will always have the dreaded soap opera camcorder look. Just convert the file in a 24p timeline if you want it to look "cinematic". Even the ZV-E1 knows this and switches to 23.98p when you enter cinematic mode.

On 3/31/2023 at 11:37 AM, MrSMW said:

I thought you said in a few posts back I was being too harsh regarding this release? 🤔😉

true lol but that was before the dan watson review where he got the camera to overheat in 5mn as well as on his couch without even recording. if the camera actual had decent thermal management I wouldn't be so harsh on it myself. then again the intended market will probably shoot short 8-bit baked files. and when the camera overheats in 4K60p/4k120p they will switch to their phones and call it a day. ignorance is bliss. 

23 hours ago, markr041 said:

Breathing comp and AF have nothing to do with the sensor. You do not know that the fx30 and the ZV E1 have the same processors or chips (hardware) as the a7siii (Sony processor names are not informative). And note that the fx3, which does have exactly the same sensor and processors as the a7siii, did not get the updates for breathing compensation or AF either. That gives us a clue.

Gerald Undone covers this in his ZV-E1 review. Same sensor and processor. The only clue this gives us is that Sony likes giving new units new features, not old ones. This is an obvious commercial strategy of theirs and not limited to these cameras.  

23 hours ago, markr041 said:

You are "sounding like" a Sony hater (I do not think you are, but I am giving you a taste of what it is like to name call like you did - "Sony apologist" - really?)

I shoot Sony professionally. But I have no qualms in calling them out on their shenanigans. Many others are as well including Sony ambassadors. The fact that you seem oblivious to that and keep giving them excuses is why I said that, no offence meant. 

amazing shots as usual! are those stills or frame grabs?

I would thing IBIS would be a huge benefit when shooting handheld at such focal lengths but I guess there are the odd hiccups which you can't afford to miss in your extreme shoots. 

how exactly is the image improved? sounds super vague lol.. 

and yeah the power drainage situation is the number one deterrent on this otherwise mega capable true hybrid camera.

you keep overlooking the one major caveat: overheating. all the FF / A7S3 / Z battery / AI stuff is worth zip if your camera bricks after couple minutes. and it will. this camera could potentially ruin whatever summer travel vlog in an exotic location. also very skimpy hardware for a "high-end" vlog camera (single card slot, micro HDMI, cheap plastic body)

that is why I consider this camera a trap/scam. its the R5 all over again but much much worse (R5 never overheated in 5 minutes) due to the horrible thermal dissipation such a body with that kinda horse power emits.

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

..this is a "top" vlogging camera with most of the insides of a 3.800 camera for almost 60% of that price..

..this is simply not true. ZV-E1 is 2699€. That's only about 30% cheaper. and you are not getting the mechanical shutter or the full IBIS. or the passive cooling. and you are losing a lot on the outside starting with the EVF (which is useful for video too in bright daylight). and in the end the high-frame rate and chunky codecs end up unusable because of overheating. all you are really benefitting from that sensor is high ISO and low RS. All the rest is crippled.

Even all the cool AI features end up ruining the IQ because the 1:1 4K sensor can't oversample. A shameful "cinematic mode". Zero vertical shooting options. Piss poor mobile communication. Really this is what you applaud? This is the best Sony can come up with for this market?

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

What is to criticise when there is no competition? And they even have a full vlogging line up from 1", APS-C to full frame now.

No competition? So you mean to tell me "VLogging" can only be done on a "ZV" camera? 

Sorry I find that a bit ridiculous. I follow a few "vloggers" and none use a ZV camera.

The pre-existing ZV lineup is pretty awful too.

No I'm not the target but I know people that are and they wouldn't touch this camera with a 6-foot selfie pole.

To me they got everything wrong with this cam. Its all hype and fluff. Basically a tourist trap for hype beasts.

49 minutes ago, markr041 said:

You are confounding the new fx30 and firmware updates for the fx3. The fx3 does not have breathing compensation nor improved AF from firmware upgrades special to it. It does not have less noise reduction via firmware updates either. These non additions to the fx3, but features of the fx30, suggest they are not possible for updating the a7siii either. These fx30 added features is not evidence of Sony holding back on firmware updates for older cameras with different hardware.

The fx30 is not the same hardware as the fx3 or the a7siii. It is a new model.  So, the better AF and breathing compensation that it has may require different hardware, so that no firmware upgrade is possible. fx3 cameras did not get these fx30 features.

I think it was you who claimed the fx30 was noisier and thus much inferior in low light to the fx3. Now you are saying less noise reduction is a desirable feature of the fx30? Yes, the smaller sensor/pixels of the fx30 do make it inherently noisier, but for the same NR, not so very much different in most situations. 4K 120p is definitely significantly noisier, but that is because the fx30 uses a 1:1 crop of the sensor in that mode, unlike 4K up through 60 fps, and those smaller pixels then matter.

I don't understand how Cine El improves images, it is just a way to shoot. Base ISO and how you use it matters, but that can be done with the a7siii, just less easily. Do you understand how you can get better Slog3 image quality from the same sensor, processor, gamma, gamut, and base ISO from the fx3 compared to the a7siii?

Finally, baking in LUTs is indeed a new firmware feature of the fx3. But hardly one meriting all the whining.

And, yes, firmware updates are always good, but not always important, or possible for adding certain features given hardware constraints, as we have seen.

I'm not confusing anything. You are starting to sound like a Sony apologist. The ZV-E1 is total proof that AF, breathing comp etc can totally be ported to the A7S3 as the ZV-E1 uses the same sensor and processor. That old excuse of outdated hardware is not valid anymore.

As for the FX30, you are twisting my words. What I said was that the FX30 is worst than the A7S3 at low-light. Meaning it has indeed more noise at high ISO. That being said it also has less aggressive NR which is of course a better thing. 

As for Cine EI, its been my understanding from shooting with it for some time on FS/FX cams that it also affects NR, sharpening and other image processing:

It optimises the camera so that settings such as the recording ISO, noise reduction and sharpening are all optimised for recording the highest possible quality S-Log3 or raw material with the largest possible dynamic range.

https://www.xdcam-user.com/2020/12/a-guide-the-the-fx6s-cineei-mode/

8 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

This camera doesn't seem to be marketed toward folks using extensive color correction or 30-45 minute runtimes for single clips.  Most content creators on YT, etc., probably record 30s to 5 minutes on most clips.

And 5 minutes may be the max they can ever shoot before the camera overheating. This is just unacceptable, I don't care what kind of content creator you are or who this camera is marketed towards. And no camera should overheat while browsing its menu, that's just wrong. Reminds me of R5C getting its battery depleted during menu diving. This just completely breaks usability. Stop giving these cameras excuses.

As for "extensive color correction" well this is a 2699€ camera with some high-end specs. Why even offer 10-bit or XAVC-I if the camera can't handle it? Sony do it for the spec list but in real world conditions the camera fails to deliver on that. I called it before the announcement, this camera will have severe cripple hammer. and it does, not on paper but in real use.. straight out of the Canon playbook.

Its important to call these companies out for their shenanigans. Canon has learned via firmware updates and subsequent camera models that no longer overheat to ridiculous degrees. A lot of Sony ambassadors including Bloom and other big influencers are starting to rant over their crippling strategies and lousy firmware policies but on deaf ears it seems. Sony is sitting comfortably in its leadership position and only seems interested in pushing new cameras with the latest specs. 

Actually Clog1 is the less flat profile, followed by Clog3 and Clog2 is the flattest. Neither Clog2 or WideDR are available in non cine line cameras though.

S-Cinetone is Sony's version of a flat non log profile.

Personally, I can't ever go back to 8-bit. I actually wish we could get higher than 10-bit in hybrids. YMMV.

The A7SIII is definitely a video oriented hybrid though and could strongly benefit from some of the new features inside FX3/FX30 and ZV-E1. Notably LUT support which isn't limited to viewing but can also be baked-in. Very useful for fast turnover projects. Breathing compensation is a big one. And of course the new AF enhancements. These will all for sure enhance your shooting results and so yes improve the final image. 

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

An no firmware update made the fx3 image better than the a7siii image either.

Side by side tests have shown Cine EI gives cleaner results. Also FX30 has less NR. So yes firmware can improve IQ.

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

And most if not all of the new features of the ZV E1 are laughable for serious videographers. Do you really want severely cropped auto framing? Product mode. Seriously.

The AF improvements are substantial, and a lot of A7SIII users would like the added animal detection etc.

Anyways like I said, one should never buy a camera hoping for new features down the line but its also hard to understand how you could argue against firmware updates. Other companies have been really good with that lately so people expect this with Sony but their company policy just isn't tuned towards that.

Leadership position syndrome. Sony have become the new Canon. Little to No firmware upgrades. Heavy segmentation. Paper spec cameras that overheat. Zero regards towards criticism. 

That being I always tell people, buy a camera (or any digital product) for what it can do today. Don't expect added specs down the line, you're most likely setting yourself up for disappointment. 

If you're using higher bitrate codecs and/or you are in warm conditions, the camera won't last you 30-45mn. Again Dan Watson got it to overheat in under 5 minutes! Gerald Undone got run time cut in half with just 2 degrees Celsius difference. 

This camera is all paper specs. i.e. the biggest sensor, the most advanced AF, AI etc.. in the smallest body. That's a recipe for disaster and I think it's going to backfire big time, especially with summer creeping up. 

The camera is ok for TikTok / social media short clips in cool environments. We're talking 15 to 60 second clips. Or you gotta step down to longGOP / 8-bit / FHD for longer form content. (Sony has a chart where they specify 8-bit for the run time!)

Some of the AI tracking features are actually very interesting, like the auto framing lock on center. I could see some really good use for that for product shooting. But as Dan mentions in his above review, all these AI features crop heavily in the cam so its a bewilderment why they chose the A7S3 sensor which does 1:1 4K and seriously degrades the IQ when punching in. These AI features would have been so much more useful on an oversampled 4K sensor. 

I can't help but feel that this ZV camera would have made much more sense as an APS-C one with the 6K oversampled FX30 sensor at half the price ($1100 / 1350€) and hence with little to no overheating. I don't even think most Vloggers and content creators care that much about FF. Its really an odd decision.

Probably the most honest review, he got the camera to overheat on his couch while just menu diving and it overheat in FIVE minutes in 4K60p while shooting outdoors in non summer Florida:

18 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

ohhhh.... I like a good conspiracy theory! And this one has some legs. Let's see how quick the firmware update comes out. 

Its expected in June so well after all the reviews will be out. 

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Bet it will have built in 9:16 & 4:5 & 1:1 ratios for easy social sharing. (last week I was working on a high end film shot on a 5:4 ratio!!)

All I've heard is it has 2:35:1 in "cinematic" mode. There is a surprising lack of vertical options imo. I would have thought that would have been top features but it seems this is first and foremost a YouTube VLOG camera. Big missed opportunity imo to not cater to the massive social media / TikTok market..

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The FX30 has timecode too! And has a different UI that is better suited for filmmaking, than one for photography. 

btw, I wouldn't call it "so much worse" though for low light. I'd still happily use the FX30 in low light conditions. 

The ZE1 UI isn't aimed at photography though, its a videography oriented tool. It has the FX zoom rocker and the same quick video menu. On the physical side its super dumbed-down to the maximum with a shallow/deep DoF button and subject detection button for AF. Just about everything else is gestures and touch via the display.

The FX30 low light is definitely much worse than the A7S3/FX3/ZVE1. That doesn't mean its terrible but its far from great (even by APS-C/S35 standards). Tons of noise in the shadows, especially at high frame rates.

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

This new boy, the Sony Narcissist or whatever it is called, really is a turd of a camera.

At sub 1k cost, OK, maybe I would give it a pass, but at what they are asking?! 😵‍💫

I think you're being a little hard on it. We are not the target market.

The price is steep but they did stick the A7S3 sensor in it, A7RV AF, FX3 features etc.

Plus all those AI tools. Actually a lot of high-end specs.. on a tiny consumer body. 

While that's rather impressive and unexpected, the problem is of course thermal management.

I even suspect Sony deliberately removed 4K120p at launch so no reviewer would slam the camera for overheating under 10 minutes.

I don't hate this camera, in fact its kind of a greatest hits of Sony Alpha video specs but the body and thermal management suck. And that makes the package at its price not viable to me. But I suspect the intended market will shoot 8-bit codecs to extend overheating.

23 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Z battery and IBIS plus all the gimmicks, (huge) PLUS LENSES suitable for the task. 

Marketed as an A7SmkIII lite..

R6mkII still 3.200€

R8 is 1.939€

A7SmkIII 3.999€

A7c is 1.999€

I am still waiting for the official local pricing, but it seems to me as perfectly fine for the targeted group, plus there are many more options up and down.

Your country has severe taxes! The ZVE-1 is 2699€ in mainland EU so expect 3000€ in your country. Do you still find that a good deal for a Sony camera with no EVF, single card slot, and that overheats in 30mn in 4K24p when recording XAVC-I ?

2 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

How does this compare to fx30? 

FX30 has active cooling so no overheating to start with. Much better form factor and higher quality build, full HDMI, RAW out, Cine EI mode, top handle with XLR unit, dual card slots. Supersampled 4K so sharper image. APS-C sensor though so much worst low light.

They threw a bunch of stuff inside the ZE1 but with the massive overheating its all kind of useless for any type of serious work or simply again hot locations. 

10 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Sony is dominating the market at the moment. Every release is a power move it seems. For the targeted group is perfectly fine and the price very competitive..there are lesser options in APS-C with loads of new wide and ultra wide lenses for cheaper.

Sony did it again..and I hate them for it..

...meanwhile in Canon-land, the R8 is still 1930euros! If the trend continues, it will be all Sony until the end of decade..

How is a ZE1 priced at 2699€ a better deal than an R8 at 1799€ ?

R8 may not have all those gimmicky AI functions but at least it doesn't overheat. Plus it has a EVF and front curtain shutter. Seems like much better value to me..

6 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

The fact that being based on the A7Siii then it can see in the dark will be a big draw and again something which the extra $500 could seem a reasonable price to pay.

honestly the low light of A7S3 is a little over rated imo. its actually a 48MP quad bayer sensor so not actually bigger photo sites.

8 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I suspect the lack of mechanical shutter will be less of a hindrance to the target market, HDMI more so but probably less of an issue than it is to many non-vloggers.

marketing aside if you just compare this cameras price point and its specs to the competition (S5ii, R6ii) that's when you realise how stingy Sony went on specs.

9 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Yep, seems to be in the 50/60p modes but OK in the regular frame rates.

Depends on the situation whether anyone will be doing continuous takes of that length but what I haven't seen anything about is the recovery times ?

Actually the test I saw was the camera overheating in 30mn in XAVC-I in 24p in normal indoor conditions !!! Going LongGop extends the time and 8-bit as well obviously.

Gerald Undones video is up now and the overheating jumps down from 2 hours to 1 hour when ambient temperature rises from 22 to 24 degrees Celsius. The camera will probably be completely unusable in summer / hot locations.

I'm not even speaking of 4K60p & 4K120p.

This is really my main gripe about the camera. No matter the target. 

I think the price is very steep for the target demo. Especially in Europe. I just can't imagine your average vlogger dropping that kinda coin on a camera targeted at amateurs/beginners.

That being said the camera has some pretty solid specs/features. They didn't gimp it as much as I thought they would.

In fact, in quite a few ways it actually surpasses the A7S3 with next-gen AF, focus compensation and even LUT support.

And it retains ALL-I 10-bit Slog3. 

I assume an A7S4 is just around the corner.

The body of course is of the cheaper kind. And no EVF, no mechanical shutter. Micro HDMI etc.

The IBIS is also the more basic A7C one, not the same as in A7 series.

And the biggest con, no active/passive cooling. 

I've just seen some tests and the camera overheated in 30mn using XAVC-I. 

This totally kills it imo for most types of shooting.

“cinematic mode” (built in black bars feature)

2699€

I haven't shot 5D3 ML in many years but the 14-bit colors you get out of that Canon sensor are among the nicest I've ever seen short of an ARRI. There is something about that generation of Canons in general and it gets fully unleashed with ML RAW. 

Blind tests don't mean so much, its when you have the actual footage inside your NLE and push the grade that is when the magic is felt, no pun intended.

Yes we have a multitude of high resolution, high DR cams that shoot 10-bit, ProRes & RAW. Its fantastic and what I use for commercial projects etc. That being said there is no denying 5D3 ML RAW still has incredible mojo despite all the fuss and old sensor limitations. I am probably going to repurchase a 5D3 in the near future just to revisit that camera in general for both stills & ML. I was looking at old pics & footage from it just the other day and was instantly hit by the nostalgia that the images produce. 

C100, C300 & 1DC also have such mojo imo, even on their outdated internal codecs.