Django

For me it would be:

1. Workhorse hybrid (R5/R5ii/R5C, Z8/Z9, S1Rii, A7RV/FX3 etc).

2. Compact personal/travel camera (Leica rangefinder, X100VI, Sigma FP/BF).

3. Cine camera for long format / high-end work (FS7, FX6, C70/C80, BMD, Komodo).

Anything else for me is a luxury/niche. I do have couple film cameras, including point & shoot favourite Yashica T4 (would love a Contax G2, Leica M7). Old SLR & DSLRs. 

The dream "art" video camera I want doesn't really exist, basically a new digital Bolex form factor with IBIS & NDs that shoots open-gate. I imagine Fuji could do that although it seems they're going another direction for their cine cam introduction..

23 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

So meanwhile let's look at what that means in the real world away from pixel peeping tests and number of stops.

14.2 stops so you can get an unusably bad image 5 stops under exposed?

Or does it have a genuinely big creative impact / image quality benefit.

After all it is "class leading above all other mirrorless cameras" so it must be pretty special and not just 1% better dynamic range than a 3 year old Nikon Z9, right?

And just because it has 1% more "test setup" dynamic range does not make it a better mirrorless camera than the Nikon Z8, because it's a lot more expensive than one for a start and with a far worse range of native lenses, and a less flexible system mount.

I do like the sRAW codec for 4K/60p, smaller file sizes, huge EVF, and the body design is a decent evolution from the original.

But the DR and C-LOG2... Meh.

Many more important things to consider overall like the system mount, codecs, handling, prices used and new, and so on.

 

Oh I agree with you and not trying to argue R5 mk2 is the best camera in each category nor was I even comparing it to Nikons.

I was just pleasantly surprised to find out that in 4K fine mode the DR in Clog2 puts it all the way up to the 6th position in their rankings between Venice 2 and ARRI. In comparison the original R5 is ranked 72nd with 10.8 stops of DR. Quite a significant leap that no one seemed to really notice.

I'm not that concerned with exposure latitude tests as indeed I never intend to under expose an image to those limits however usable DR in a well exposed scene is definitely always a plus, especially in backlit situations which can be crucial in certain scenarios.

Also from my own tests, Clog2 is just a lot less contrasty and saturated than Clog3. Skin tones are much more natural. So that and the added DR is to me a significant advantage of the R5 mk2 vs mk1. 

Now comparing it to the Z8 that's a tougher one, different pros & cons. I do really like the Z8/Z9 and was so close to grabbing a Z9 last summer as it ticks so many boxes. But as mentioned I had exposure trouble shooting N-log and grading workflow was tricky versus Canon C-log. Maybe with more time on the camera I'd get to satisfactory shooting/grading level but sadly that just wasn't at all the case for me in my short time with the Nikon.

I did love many things about Z8/Z9, namely the ergonomics, tilt display, speed, ProRes codecs, 4K60p oversampled, color science and neutral/flat profiles. What I didn't like was menu/banks system, AF that would often focus on eye lash instead of iris, no LUT support, unreliable log exposure assistance. These things could all be corrected in firmware and the pros do outweigh the cons. In the end its the overall lens ecosystem that'll drive you one way or the other. I'm more invested in Canon so its going to take a lot for me to switch to Nikon. 

Rumor has it R5 mk2 is getting open-gate. Obviously to be taken with a huge grain of salt, and Nikon could very well add that as well. That would be a significant draw for me.

Actually the R5 mk2 cined lab test reveals some quite interesting results. You can choose the binned 4K for an impressive 9.7ms RS or the 4Kfine option for detailed oversampled 4K in Clog2 with class-leading 13.3 (SNR2) 14.2 (SNR1) stops of DR! That is totally outstanding and something no one has talked about up until now. This places the R5 mk2 in this shooting mode above all other mirrorless cameras and makes it sit in between the Venice 2 & Alexa Mini LF. I was already blown away by R5 mk2 Clog2 files I've played with and now I understand better why. I think R5 mk2 has been overlooked as the specs sheet isn't that impressive but actual test results are and for DR alone I think its revealing itself to be a killer camera. 

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I fully agree the lack of RF cameras and lenses does harm Canon both now and recently. But the big shift over from Canon to Sony happened in the 2010's, and I think back then the lens/camera mount was less of a big deal. 

In fact arguably Canon's EF mount was a "strength" of Canon, on their side. (and I'd say is linked to why they were then so slow to transition away from EF, which is not to their detriment) 

Sure, Sony lens lineup a decade ago wasn't nearly as complete in pricing & range as was EF. 

Sony has done a great job building its lens collection with the help of Zeiss, Sigma, Tamron etc.

Not to mention all the esoteric/anamorphic E-mount lenses from boutique companies.

Today DSLR lenses like EF aren't nearly as popular due to size, weight & poor video AF performance.

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Yeah, by the time they released the C70 (for $5500) the landscape had radically changed. It was only three months later that Sony released the FX3 for $1600 less than the C70 and 18 months later that they released the FX30.

Unless you were a loyal Canon user there weren't many reasons to buy one of their overpriced cinema cameras when there were more affordable and, arguably, better options.

If Canon had released the C70 for $3500 things might be a bit different today. 

The C70 wasn't that overpriced in the sense that its an actual cine camera with pro I/O, ND filters, large battery etc. It also had a pretty singular DGO sensor from the top of the line C300 mk3. FX3 was basically a rehoused A7S3.

The main issue is that C70 was RF S35 but with zero APS-C RF lenses so you had to get the speed booster to adapt old EF glass. Really convoluted approach.. C80 is what it should have been from the start.

Still for solo docu work I'd take a C70/C80 over an FX3 for the NDs, internal RAW, battery life & I/Os.

You'd have to step up to FX6 for a fair comparison. FX3's competition is R5C.

I think a big part of why Canon lost to Sony in the low/mid segment is the change of mount & lenses. 

Canon were super slow to update their cine line to RF and still have this problem were only C70/C80 are RF and the rest is EF. On the Sony side its just E-mount through & through for over a decade. This consistency makes it a lot stronger to build and invest in the ecosystem. Not to mention RF mount has almost no S35 lenses and is closed to third-parties. That whole strategy just backfired on them big time imo. I still like Canon cameras and lenses but it's a much weaker ecosystem than Sony. 

Now Nikon have a chance to enter this market with Z-mount RED/Nikon cine line. Fuji are attempting with the Eterna but I feel that's going to flop, should have gone with a Fuji X APS-c sensor like the one inside XH2S.

I think it just confirms the on-going trend that in the broadcast/videography world Sony is the leader with Canon still present but trailing behind. Panny, Nikon & Fuji are so far behind they're basically absent although that could potentially shift in years to come.

I've noticed the Sony dominance within my own local docu/concert/event scene. Its to the point where if you don't show up with Sony gear, people look at you funny. If you want work in that scene you basically just gotta be a Sony operator. I'm not sure how to explain it other than Sony FX ecosystem is really popular and yeah they have a head start with a FF range from A7 to FX3 to FX9. Also the A7S3/FX3/FX6 sensor is a lowlight champ with super low rolling shutter which helps a lot for run & gun docu style work.

Also S-Log3 is kind of the standard in production houses. C-log is acceptable too. Other log formats can be problematic to hand in. For example I haven't even figured out how to expose/grade Nlog correctly so it would be complicated to send N-log footage to a post unit not familiar with it. Might sound silly but its workflow stuff like that that can dictate a brand/format choice from another.. and part of why ARRI dominates the cine world.

30 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Which is fair enough and your argument holds water, but there is another scenario and that is if Panny were to acquire Leica, there could be a 2 tier structure which might be:

Tier 1 which is your pricier and photo-centric if not 100% photo only M's, and then,

Tier 2 which might be your less pricey, but still premium hybrid and video gear.

What exactly would this achieve for Leica?

Absolutely nothing other than continued existence. In this hypothetical scenario, they have just been bought out!

But Panasonic LUMIX or now Leica as they are known, have a stronger place in the marketplace due to brand.

I think Nikon NEED to do it with Red and have a 2 tier structure that is:

RED Nikon for their video-centric offerings and 

Nikon RED for their hybrid and photo.

In both of these hypothetical scenarios, there would also have to be parts pricing and tech differences, but it's what I would do in their shoes and that is not try to cover al bases or be a jack of all trades, but cover your niche and cover it exceptionally well.

Why would Leica need to sell out though? They are doing fine financially. The Xiaomi partnership allows a strong revenue stream with a foot in the lucrative smartphone business. They already have the top tier M/SL/Q lines and lenses and the second tier rebranded Panasonic stuff for consumers. Plus the L-mount alliance. That a pretty healthy strategy for a boutique company.

Hasselblad was in a much harder position hence the DJI buy out. And while that has indeed saved the company from going tits up, many users feel its diluted the brand who's shifted focus and hasn't really innovated much since. That's why I'm not usually keen on buy-outs from big tech companies unless the only left option.

The Nikon/RED thing is interesting considering there was a legal feud right before that happened. If you can't beat them, join them type of situation. Will see if Z9 follow-up (ZX) will indeed have global shutter and R3D code. Its going to be interesting because they now also have to protect the RED cine line..

Can't say I agree. As a Leica user, I absolutely care about manufacturing, build quality, country of origin etc. 

Call me a purist but that's what I pay for not the badge, in fact my Leica MP has no badge/red dot.

I'll go even further and say the only real Leica's to me are the M, Q & SL series. 

As for Panasonic, they have a strong and long legacy both in audiophile world via Technics (started in 1965) and broadcast/video/cinema with the various ENG/camcorders & Varicam products. Video cameras like the DVX100 were cult among indie docs, film and music videos and game changers as they introduced 24p alongside 3CCD sensors in affordable packages.

Sony also has heavy legacy in video/film with DVCAM in the 90s and CineAlta the first digital cinema cams used by Lucas in the Star Wars prequels.

So while both Panny & Sony don't have CaNikons & Fuji photography background, they actually precede them in the video/cinema world hence the head start they got on that side in mirrorless.

Nikon up until basically Z9 was seriously lagging in the mirrorless video market. There were even bad speculation about their financial health and future viability. They made a surprise U-turn with Z9/Z8/Z6iii and the shock acquisition of RED. Still very curious about what RED will mean. Nikon didn't have a cine line to protect, now they do so will RED tech trickle down to the Z line or will it be more of a Z-mount ecosystem?

Yeah I don't see Canon, Fuji or Sigma entering the smartphone industry for a bunch of reasons. And even if they did, I doubt they could catch up to Apple, Samsung, Google etc. RED tried and failed miserably. Canon, Fuji etc can't even get their own smartphone apps to work correctly most of the time.

Their speciality is imaging and should stay focused on that. Now what I do wish is that they actually implemented on their cameras more advancements coming from smartphones. AI is just starting to creep but they're still pretty behind. Computational stuff, I know lotta people hate it but why not have access to it. Image upscaling is starting to appear, Canon leading it with the in-camera 172MP upscale in R5 mk2. Panasonic seems to start getting it with S9/S1Rii and its Lumix LAB & FLOW apps.

Oh and give us bigger OLED 120hz EVF/Displays ffs. What's up with these dim tiny low res displays?! And don't even get me started with menus & overlay displays..

Why does it feel like I'm playing Pilotwings in 1992..

Give us more gestures, tap functions but also modern physical commands. I know everyone hated the Touch Bar thing on original EOS R but I actually loved it for quick exposure/ISO adjustment while eye locked in the EVF. Still haven't tried the Canon eye-control AF but yeah that's the type of innovation I like to see. Sigma BF might also be on to something.. really time to shake up the UI/GUI on these cameras.

3 hours ago, Ninpo33 said:

Yeah, I feel like these days companies  really should figure out giving us an open gate setting even on older cameras. With so many people shooting stuff for social media and the rise in cheap anamorphic lenses it feels like a no brainer. LUMIX was always so ahead of things in this regard, so crazy to think that the FX3 still doesn’t have it. Would be a perfect addition to the Z8 

Yeah pretty wild that in 2025 Sony only offers it on their $60K Venice 2. I’d hope that would change in the FX replacements or even some kind of update although Sony are terrible in that department. 
 

There is a rumour Canon will introduce open gate in an upcoming R5 mk2 update. It would be a smart move because that camera isn’t getting much love and no one aside from Panasonic is doing it on a hybrid (would be a direct S1Rii counter strike). Plus if Canon add it, it might push Nikon to do so as well. 

4 hours ago, ND64 said:

The C30 mode, which is 30fps burst for still, is limited to jpeg and HLG is not available. It can be a hint that open gate video with log profile is beyond sensor/CPU capabilities. 

Yeah I don’t really think stills burst rate limits correlates to open gate. There are cameras from Panny and BMD that offer it with much older tech. 
 

Personally I wouldn’t mind if it were offered with certain codec/fps restrictions just as long as it’s an option. Fingers crossed.

9 hours ago, mechanicalEYE said:

The Z8, and Z6 III just got firmware updates a week or so ago for shutter angle.

Cool, now what they really need to add is LUT support. Especially considering the current log assist mode isn’t really that reliable for exposure. Another major one would be  open gate. If they add both LUT support and OG, I’d switch to Nikon in a heartbeat. 
 

I’m curious how you find the grading workflow and latitude, especially compared to R5 log & RAW. I had trouble getting the log exposure right..

Check out the new RED luts, especially the technical one. 
 

By the way, latest Z9 update brings some cool stuff including shutter angle options. That should trickle down to Z8 pretty soon imo.
 

Yeah I was so set on a Z9 but after doing some tests I got very frustrated with N-log. Exposing it right, grading it. Such a struggle I ended up using the baked profiles like flat or neutral. Maybe I didn’t find the right workflow but log footage was all over the place with often very little latitude. Call me biased but Clog is just so effortless to work with in comparison. N-log really killed my GAS for switching to Nikon..
 

Like I said earlier, open gate is very appealing to me and currently Panny are the only hybrid cams doing it. But with 37ms RS in 6K it’s basically useless. I also like what they did with S9 allowing you to stack LUTs and adjust opacity in cam etc. Even vertical aspect ratio. Panasonic have real useful features for the working videographer/filmmaker but always seem to drop the ball somewhere. Not by much but enough for me to look elsewhere. Here it feels they’re playing catchup with a way overdue model. The absence of a stacked sensor or even semi stacked sticks out like a sore thumb..

20 minutes ago, ND64 said:

So they postponed the 8k opengate as a future firmware update to escape the bad press it could generate, since if enabled today it would work for like 5 minutes outdoor. 

..and showcase 52ms RS 😂

37ms rolling shutter for Open Gate is such a deal breaker to me. Open gate is the only reason I’d consider switching to Lumix. Plus it overheats ?!! Fuggetaboutit..

Sigma cameras have always been quirky in a good way I think. Niche cameras from a niche company. As Andrew stated they aren’t  competing with Canikon or Sony. More of a Japanese Leica without the price tag. Also differentiating themselves from other sister company Panny so yeah very different from S9 despite similarities. More high brow artsy, very early Apple/Braun philosophy. Design first, form over function. 
 

There is no open-gate AFAIK. I don’t think the target audience is social media users like S9. Video is really a side show here. This is more for the Leica audience. Stills oriented for mature enthusiasts that doesn’t want to delve into technical aspects yet want a sleek compact rugged camera with minimal controls that’ll output beautiful SOOC stills. It’s not so unlike their Merill/Foveon cameras.. 

I won’t lie I want one just because I’m a sucker for this type of design philosophy but it makes very little sense spec wise in todays market. Beautiful Foolishness, name really checks out! 
 

I think the name says it all. Specs aside this is the most « think different » camera from an engineering and UI perspective I’ve seen in a while. Very ZX1 reminiscent with the monolith design and aluminium unibody is right out of the Apple Johnny Ive MBP / iPhone 5 playbook. 
 

You gotta give it to Sigma for always bringing something different to the table. The Fp was already impressive with its compact solid construction and minimalist approach and this takes it to the next level. Personally I still prefer the modularity of the Fp-L with optional EVF etc but this Bf is stunning in an ultra minimalist way.
 

Spec-wise it’s more a mixed bag but this is more form over function. It’s nice they gave us 6K and L-log but a real shame they took away video DNG Raw, especially considering it’s got internal storage. But I think this is more a premium lifestyle and photography oriented camera. Curious to know if it shoots 10-bit. Probably not because of heat management like the previous compact Fp’s..
 

If you shoot a lot of 4k60 then R6 mk2 actually has a much better oversampled instead of line skipped image than R5mk2.

But if that isn’t a concern then the original R5 may be a better choice as it’s now more or less the same price as an R6 mk2 at some dealers. You’d gain 45MP / 8K and internal RAW. 
 

On 2/14/2025 at 3:19 AM, Andrew Reid said:

Welcome back!

1.5, to 2 stops to the right is a good exposure.

I wouldn't bother with zebra, false color, histogram, just use the exposure meter (less clutter over the shot then)

Nice shot of the lake. What ISO was this? R6 II is clean basically anywhere under 6400

yeah I always just go with the exposure meter on Canon cams, plus of course the view assist to get a rec709 preview. 
 

Unless mistaken the exposure meter is absent on Nikon’s in video mode? I always find the exposure meter most handy on small mirrorless lcd’s.

1 hour ago, kayasaman said:

Thanks! I have looked at these too but not too much - guess I should read and watch more of what people are saying on them

 

The FX6 would be unsuitable as it doesn't have an articulating screen so not very useful for vlogging and in a confined space like a car, it would be hard to handle

 

FX3 seems more suitable so will take a look at some sample video of that

 

Oh yeah... one thing about Sony.... it was said that there was some compatibility issue with Davinci Resolve - what was that?

I did a quick Google and looks like everything seems fine as Resolve support slog3!

 

Maybe something to do with difference between Studio and Free version?

No there are zero compatibility issues with Sony Slog and Davinci.

FWIW Sony were the first to introduce log on a mirrorless camera so its supported in every NLE.

FX3 is super compact so ideal for confined spaces like a car. 

Reason I recommend it is that the FF 12MP sensor is optimal for low-light situations with a second base ISO of 12,800. Other strong points is super low rolling shutter (great for fast run & gun), IBIS and cine features like shutter angle and in-camera LUT support. And it comes with an XLR handle.

Oh and The Creator was shot entirely on it so yeah its pretty legit even on the high end.

Can’t chime in on the vehicle talk but getting back to camera needs I’d look nowhere else than Sony FX3 / FX6. Since OP mentioned lowlight / nightscape / astro. 
 

Pair em with a 24-70mm f2.8 GM.
 

On a pure IQ level, mirrorless has definitely made significant strides wether in DR, color science, resolution, rolling shutter etc. And more importantly now with chunky internal RAW/ProRes/10-bit/Log files the gap towards high-end cinematic imagery has definitely narrowed significantly. RED/ARRI still rule in highlight roll off, DR but all the extra mileage you see on an image is indeed mostly lens, light, color grading related.

On a related note, with CST in Davinci you can transform your log footage to RED/ARRI Clog and apply their LUTs & look files. Results may vary but the gap isn't as big as you'd think.

3 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

A c70 looks way better then a R5 or r5c (have not seen a comparison with r5 ii). But I tempted to buy one, and its cheaperbused as well. Allthough i like the form factor of a r5 better + it can take good photos.

 

Then again I was comparing it with an arri alexa and c500 ii. And both looked better than a c70. But more expensive and heavier/bulkier.

C70 is great but I’m a FF hybrid shooter. I wanna invest in RF lenses (24-70mm f2.8, 35mm 1.4 VCM) so FF makes a lot more sense. Plus with 8K/45MP resolution you have great cropping power. The 35mm prime can become a 50mm & 105mm at a flick of a button on R5C. That’s great because I don’t like changing lenses on run & gun shoots. The new teleconverter feature is what’s pushing me towards R5C at the moment.
 

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

R5 II RAW CLog2 is a better image than R5c RAW CLog2. Imo on the R5c CLog2 does not really give you anything more than Clog3 other than matching to other Clog2 cameras.

Yeah Josh Sattin did a 8K RAW Clog2 comparison test in between both and the R5C has significantly more noise, color shift and banding issues, so it seems you're right!

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

It wasn't me testing out SRAW, I'm a big fan of 8k so I never used SRAW and probably will not if future, but if they would add SRAW for 4k 120 fps and 2k 240fps then I will be super happy. 

My bad it was herein2020. SRAW 4K is interesting to me as it is a downsampled from 8K RAW so it gives really sharp 4K with cropping possibility but much smaller file sizes and easier project management. I'd probably use it quite a bit with 8K RAW for high-end projects.

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

For my usage (sports, actions) the AF is a quantum leap compared to both R5 and R5c but if you do more "normal" stuff not sure it makes such a difference.

Yeah the AF appears next-level, not sure  if the R5 ii has face-only AF from the cine line though?

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

If you shoot RAW the R5c battery is still miserable as also when you are not shooting is consuming the same amount. Just one recurring example, Ice Hockey match, camera is on for 1.5h in 3x30min periods and I record around 10-12 min per period, R5 II I have 50% battery left, R5c I need to change battery at least once.

Interesting so R5C battery still sucks when shooting RAW huh? But I guess the upside is no overheating.

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Is the R5 II better than the R5c, for my use absolutely. Is it worth the difference in price used R5c vs new R5 II? It is a harder question to answer as the R5c is very capable and now at a good price and with the new battery it solves the biggest issue that I had.

Yeah its really hard for me to choose, the R5C is almost half the price and I could finance a nice RF lens like the 24-70mm f2.8 IS with the saved funds. Losing IBIS is my biggest concern but gaining all the video centric features like shutter angle, LUT baking, S35/S16 modes, the new digi teleconverter cropping etc makes it really tempting. I will probably rarely shoot 8K60 so maybe R5C is a good option with maybe an R5 mk2 further down the line as second body?