Django

double post

2 hours ago, deezid said:

I bet with BRAW and even better ProRes RAW the color would be visible actually. The chroma filtering kills of anything in dark areas that isn't super saturated. E.g. dark blue or brown clothes turn grey, hair turns grey, skin turns grey etc. '

A processing issue that would be easy for Fuji to fix, but yet they don't care because their customers don't mind inferior products. Nobody ever puts pressure on that company.

There is no pressure because there is no actual issue, again Fuji developed X-Trans CFA which has its pros & cons. Most Fuji shooters embrace it as they shoot baked-in with the film simulations but shooting RAW in stills and now in video bypasses the X-Trans so that is the solution if you need it.

16 minutes ago, superporpoise said:

For me the biggest problem with the X-H2S is the manual focus experience on newer Fuji lenses (the only ones I have experience with). Manual focus on the 33 1.4 and 18 1.4 is unusable — huge jumps in between focus areas when set to linear focus.

That's actually quite disapointing to hear. I remember having such issues on old Fuji prime lenses like the 23mm f1.4 (manual focus would step like crazy) but thought surely the new series was fixed. Aren't there MF settings too now? No dice whatsoever for video? 

21 minutes ago, superporpoise said:

Also the image is way too sharp, even at -4. It's unflattering when you're shooting people, even with a 1/8 BPM. I'm a big Fuji fan and I'm not getting rid of my X-H2S because I like it for photos, but to make it usable for video I wish they'd fix the operation of their lenses, add touch tracking AF, and figure out sharpening.

Like stated above the Fuji lenses are mega sharp, and with absence of OLPF plus 6K resolution well yeah that's a sharp image. There are ways around it, but yeah it might involve more than just a BPM. 

The MF lens issues have been there for years so dunno if there is much they can do and the sharpening also. Sometimes I wonder if their video department is just an after thought or something, a bit like Nikon where they have these great video specs but drop the ball completely in functionality.

26 minutes ago, superporpoise said:

That said, the dynamic range and rolling shutter is good. And I love all of the codec options + open gate. It's so close to being good, but these issues make me reach for my FX6/3 or Pocket 6K.

Yeah those are valid concerns and why I don't think going Fuji for me would necessarily work in a pro setting / workflow. I still really want an XH2S but more for indie / artistic projects / lifestyle / social media.

44 minutes ago, deezid said:

Is her hair grey or dark brown?

both.

44 minutes ago, deezid said:

Anyway, compared the X-H2s against the S1H and the S1H ran circles around it. The X-H2S simply cannot differentiate between fine hue changes especially in darker areas because of its over cranked spatial chroma filtering.
With BRAW the X-H2s was as good as the S1H. It's simply just a processing related issue.

If you say so. Then again if you're so adversed to image processing then yeah just shoot in BRAW that's what its there for. In most other scenarios nobody will notice/care.

47 minutes ago, deezid said:

TLDR: If you want a great image without compromises for around $2000, get the S1H/S1/S5 or Pocket 6K and avoid the rest.

Sounds very biased. S1H retailed for 4000€. Nothing special about S1/S5 IQ. They use very low bitrate h264 codecs. Have slow readout / high rolling shutter. Use image processing (NR, sharpening) like all non-RAW cameras.

Pocket 6K has issues too, very noisy shadows as soon as you step outside base ISO. moirés like crazy. 

I'm also not sure what your screen shots are supposed to reveal with those blurry abstract shapes but I'll take your word that S5ii image processing is heavier than previous generation, that seems to echo what others have been saying.

Personally I find Vlog kind of a PITA to grade, the conversion LUTs suck. YMMV. 

FX30 has much chunkier (ALL-I) codecs going up to 600mbps vs 200mbps on S5ii. It has 15ms RS vs 22ms on S5ii. It's AF is class-leading. And I believe it is Netflix approved which is always something to consider. Oh and it also has a swivel screen:

But yeah in the end you do have to look at the eco-system that makes most sense to you. Bodies come & go, lenses is usually what locks you in the long run..

1 hour ago, deezid said:

Again to each their own.
I would rather have an image without cranked chroma noise reduction reducing tonality to a pulp especially when shooting log, badly affecting skin, foliage, dark areas etc. nor super heavy sharpening leading to quite heavy amounts of noise that an optical diffusion filter cannot reduce btw. The lower amount of processing, the better the image. Ask RED and ARRI.

ARRI (like every camera manufacturer) has extensive IQ pipeline, its the key to their whole look:

ARRI’s digital cameras produce exceptional image quality with the organic look and feel of film, delivering incredible production value at an affordable cost. Images created with any ALEXA or AMIRA camera contain all the ingredients for best overall image quality: large and therefore sensitive photosites, high dynamic range, sharp and natural images, high sensitivity, natural color reproduction, excellent color separation, and the absence of artifacts.

To create such outstanding images, all components of the imaging chain are custom designed by our engineers and carefully tuned for optimal performance, starting with the optical low pass filter, the CMOS sensor, the imaging electronics, and the image processing software.

Fuji has their own pipeline which starts with the X-Trans CFA. Like anything it has its pros & cons. Again no AA filter so very sharp/detailed image with no moiré. And again the whole chroma reduction thing is overblown imo with XH2S in 6K ProRes HQ. I'm get excellent tonality/skin tone grades from the Flog2 files I've been testing:

Nice neutral organic image with a lot of detail allowing you to punch-in without image falling apart. Of course every setting, lighting, grading pipeline and lens choice matters. The scene above is shot on a DZOfilm Vespid 40mm T2.1 cine lens. Very light grade here with just Flog2 to ARRI conversion and slight curve adjustment.

YMMV of course, to each their own but with the right lens, the right codec, the right grade I find the XH2S IQ to be among the best, for the type of subjects, lighting and framing I'm likely to do. Could be a whole different thing with other variables.

Sure it was a big planetary hit at $700 for an APS-C Vlog MILC. I just dunno if a $2500 full frame version is what the market is asking right now but what do I know. It's basically the reverse strategy of releasing the FX3 then FX30. Weird. An A7C mk2 with A7S3 sensor would have made more sense imo.

1 hour ago, BrunoCH said:

If you like this kind of grading, the Resolve FUJI LUT could be a good start.

What do you mean by "Resolve FUJI LUT"? I use the official Fuji Flog/Flog2 LUTs to convert to Rec709.

I'm not aware of any particular Fuji LUTs in Resolve aside from the film stock emulation ones..?

57 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

Naive question, because I too like the nostalgia Fuji provides internally, but with cameras like s5ii and others providing internally baked LUTs - doesn’t that mean you could get equal or better creative looks with minimal post processing ?

With cameras like S5II or FX3/FX30 you can indeed import custom LUTs which is great but not the same thing as Fuji film simulations. There are a bunch of parameters in Fuji film simulations that you can tweak and dial-in to create what they call "Fuji recipes". For stills that even includes film grain size, type etc. 

5 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

That's why I just bought a used Leica TL2. I didn't want to use my work tools for personal stuff and have been getting by with my phone for a few years now, but decided it's a bit too 'immediate' and easy.

So the oddball but very capable and underrated Leica plus what is almost certainly going to be an adapted M Mount lens, so manual focus only.

My second option was the OG X100 and it has been in an out of my shopping basket several times, but I've been there and done that so...

I also considered other new options such as the X100V, XE4 and GR3X, but in the end I decided they were all too new, too obvious and too easy.

Not familiar with that particular model but yeah whatever inspires/sparks creativity is always a good thing!

I'm a huge Leica fanboy, and my Leica M9P + 28mm Summicron is still my favourite when it comes to travel & street photography. The camera itself feels like a high-end pistol, and the rangefinder experience is so much fun (well to me at least, some people hate it).

An X100 series is definitely a camera I plan to own some day for the leaf shutter flash sync and built-in NDs. But its really more of a point & shoot than actual rangefinder.

Anyways, getting back to the XH2S it will be of course mainly a video tool but yeah similar concept of using something different than day in day out work tools! 

People. I live in Paris, France. I do event, docu, run & gun, fashion, art, music etc.

While I shoot professionally with Sony/Canon.. I'm looking to go back to Fuji for more artistic, nostalgic projects.

Would also double up for street photography, travel and social media content. Basically sort of a lifestyle cam.

I'm kind of obsessed with 3:2 aspect ratio at the moment. Also I'd probably use the film simulations quite a bit.

4 hours ago, BrunoCH said:

About the chroma smoothing issue, my only problem with the XT4, was that at a certain distance, on a face, the teeth and the white of the eyes tend to take the color of the skin, as Attila Bakos showed on his example with the red bricks joint. With the XH2S in ProRes HQ, it looks much better.

So yeah poor colour separation when shooting at a certain distance. I've noticed colours get mushy in those scenarios. Your subject has to remain fairly close. I like what this one kid has achieved with his XH2S, the grade is a little extreme and stylised but really makes the colours pop in a pleasant way:

47 minutes ago, D Verco said:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/65ye9cnygs07gu0/AACXz9IPrvgmH_knwcX4_avQa?dl=0

 

I'd recommend the Gafpa Gear luts for Arri log conversion and a 250D lut.  

Thanks I do appreciate the effort but this type of footage (shaky blurry handheld trees and cars at dusk) is completely useless to me I'm afraid. Sorry, no offence.

Fortunately I have since found really nice 6K ProRes HQ footage of skin tone closeups which is what I was after.

FWIW I've been using Filmbox to grade it since it actually supports Flog2 (and has 250D stocks).

The demo is limited to 2K timeline which ends up rubbing off that over sharp digital edge. 

Results have been looking great so far.

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

Wonder which camera will last longer at 4k60P, the og R6 or this new Sony cam? 

Dunno but keep in mind the R6 does 4K60p no crop in 10-bit Clog. 

And for $2500 you could buy a R6 mk2 that pretty much mitigates overheating. And has EVF, IBIS, dual card slots etc.

This ZV cam is going to be a hard sell outside of its intended Vlog market. Expect a full frame version of the ZV-E10:

23 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

True true, damn Canon at it again with their cripple hammer!

 

The C70 is an entry-level C line camera, just like the C100 series it doesn't feature SDI outs as its just not considered that type of camera. Its a run & gun solo operator joint. Just a step above mirrorless. It's price sits a good 1500€ under FX6.

That being said, Canon have been sleeping on the C lineup. A C200 update is long overdue and is the series were SDI's make their appearance. Surely they are losing sales to FX6 with no worthy alternative at that price level.

Then again, maybe that whole market of +6K€ cine cam owners is shrinking due to the current climate.

Right now the money is in the $2K-$3K bracket it feels.

i.e. $2499 / 2799€

That's actually super expensive for a camera that overheats a lot in 2023. 

Vloggers won't care because they shoot 30 seconds clips max at a time.

Come to think of it this will be the perfect TikTok camera for rich Asian kids.

I bet you the new AI features will be right up their alley too..

SAR adds on his YT channel: "a very plasticky feeling, not at all high-end FX3 feeling". 

This is just the start, there will be more crippling, I guarantee you.

And just as expected here is the first major Sony cripple hammer spec:

Some testers also gave me a first feedback on this camera:

New ZV-E1 E-mount camera is based on the Sony As7III

Same A7sIII 12 Megapixel sensor

4k60 & 4k 120 (no crop). But it appears 120p might be coming later via firmware update

no pixel binning

409k ISO

AF from a7r V but it has even better detection

Body overheats a lot at the moment

Lots of new AI features, very innovative

Similar body style of the ZV-E10, but in the size of the Sony A7c and with some FX3 elements

Price slightly below $2,500

Announcement on March 29, 3pm London time

I guarantee you this will have substantial Sony cripple hammer. It's a ZV series aimed at Vloggers.

So what crippling to expect? No EVF, no IBIS, no fan, no 10-bit, no S-Log, no dual card slot. 

There is simply no way Sony is releasing an A7S3/FX3 in a A7C body for $2500. 

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

He seems to be an enthusiast that is looking to film personal videos and some stuff to put on YouTube.

There really is no reason to get the FX3 or any other expensive camera when he would be just fine filming with a more affordable one, like the A7IV. Please re-read the original post before recommending that a $4000 camera is a good investment for someone that is looking to film personal stuff that he might put on YouTube. If he has the money to blow, then I guess go for it, but he does not need a cine camera.

As far as my own personal philosophy, I want to get the most out of each and every camera investment I make. By waiting I not only will have made more money using the equipment I have, but the equipment that I want to upgrade to will have come down in price even more. In our disposable society where people need the latest and greatest that might seem goofy, but for me it makes the most financial sense and ensures that more money goes into my pocket. In the 5 years I've owned the GH5 it has paid for itself at least 50x over and continues to be a camera I can make money using over the next couple of years. That's what I'm concerned about the most as a freelancer who could one day find himself out of work for a year because of a global pandemic.

I'm not recommending him anything in particular, we're just talking shop and comparing cameras. 

There are enthusiasts with high budgets and also high expectations. There are pros that are very budget conscious and don't place priority on specs. There are Canon fans, Panasonic fans, Sony fans. FF fans, S35 fans, MFT fans. Etc.  I don't know who is who when on gear forums, I can only give you my perspective. 

On 3/19/2023 at 10:47 PM, newfoundmass said:

If you are going the Sony route I think the FX30 is an excellent option and competitively priced. I think if you wanted full frame the A7IV would be a better deal than the FX3. For me, it's better to spend less on the camera body because that's what loses value quickest. The second you open that box for the first time your camera is worth less than it was when it was closed. And with every day the value goes down more and more. That's part of the reason I have trouble recommending people drop serious coin on a camera, because unless they are going to be generating a lot of income because of it, it's just not a great long term investment. 

Like I could afford to buy the Lumix S5ii right now but I'm not going to because in a year or two it will be significantly cheaper on the used market, meaning I keep more money in my pocket even when using it to generate income.

I dunno sorry but that's a really goofy way of looking at things, especially if you're a pro. Buy the best camera you can afford that fits your requirements wether that's specs (resolution, codecs etc) or i/o's ergonomics etc. Obviously be smart and on the lookout for what camera will be a better long term investment rather than short if the camera is at the end of a cycle.

The FX3 is imo a much better investment and solution than the A7IV. First it doesn't overheat. That alone is key. Then you have all the cine features including LUT support. The fast readout sensor, A7IV has terrible RS. And of course the cage-less body and top handle with XLRs. If you're on a budget or don't need FF then the FX30 makes even better sense. 

S5ii is also very competitive. Why wait a year or two if you need the camera today?

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy cameras often at all, in fact much less than your average person around here. When I find a camera I'm comfortable with I stick with it forever. And I rarely go for flagships when they are new (I skipped R5, A7S3). 

But there are plenty of excellent options in the $2K-$3K region right now both new and used if you're in the market for an upgrade. So many in fact that it is hard to choose!

Most Alpha Sony shooters are FF at this point. Sony kind of abandoned APS-C even on the FX line. Its only now making a return mainly thanks to FX30 and some new APS-C lenses. But with speed boosters its actually kinda more versatile than FX3/A7S3 which cannot shoot Super35 crop modes due to 12MP sensor. 

No EVF and no mechanical shutter does mean its not a great hybrid and Sony for some silly reason doesn't give FX3/30 shutter angle or WFM. And no DCI options either. Still as Ironfilm says its the ideal side-kick to a FS/FX camera (has TC) and a great compact video option for the Sony ecosystem. 

I'd have already bought one if it wasn't for XH2S. Stacked sensor, 6K Opengate & ProRes is just so hard to overlook. Plus with EVF and solid stills performance. It ticks so many boxes. But the Fuji look is an acquired taste and won't play friendly with most production houses. Its pretty much relegated to indie or standalone shooting. Resolve doesn't even support F-Log2 yet for an ACES workflow. And yet despite all those rational reasons to avoid Fuji and stick with Sony, I'm still VERY tempted by XH2S.

1 hour ago, deezid said:

To each their own. 
To me the heavy chroma filtering when shooting internally is an absolute no go. Skin looks lifeless and so does any kind any kind of foliage. That's only one problem next to the insane amount of oversharpening the cameras forces on your footage. 

The image lacks tonality and color separation and looks thin as nothing I've ever seen before, something that cannot be fixed in post. Fuji also really needs to work on their AF and IBIS.

The S5II on the other hand has no issues with that but has banding in shadows which hopefully can be fixed via a firmware update.

Btw. external ProRes on the S5II looks identical in every single way to the internal H265/H264 codecs, there's not a single difference in IQ even when pushing color a to the extremes.

The chroma smoothing thing is real but overblown imo. Its a pixel peeper thing, in real life scenarios it rarely matters.

Skin tones when shot properly are amazing. The 4K120p is amazing. Better than the class leading A7SIII.

Here is some XH2S 4K120p footage shot in 8-bit 264 standard baked profile: 

Yes the image is sharp but hard to beat such a clean rich detailed 4K120p with no moiré. Any other Bayer sensor camera and that fabric would be moiré artifacting like crazy. And that's in the lowest 8-bit setting..

Its easy to pick apart issues but you also got to know how to play cameras to their advantages.

I prefer softening a sharp detailed image then the reverse. Just pop on a vintage / cine lens and something like a Pro-Mist filter and you'll already get a much softer image.. add some film grading, halation etc on the very chunky robust ProRes codec and you've got yourself a very cinematic image with film like grain:

Honestly I'm shocked. No real explanation either which seems like a giant slap in the face of their community.

As I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on a XH2S I'd just like to revisit the infamous chroma smoothing issues.

How big of a deal do you guys think this is? Like in practice when does it really bother you? It seems to me its only really noticeable when shooting foliage from a distance. But unless you're a nature landscape shooter I don't think you'll run into glaring issues.

In another thread someone just mentioned Fuji has the worst tonality and color separation. That and the over sharpening.

My reply was this is due to X-Trans. No AA filter and the chroma smoothing issues mentioned here.

But the upside is more detail and a much more filmic-like grain at high ISO due to less chroma noise.

I mean we tend to focus on the cons of X-Trans but there are pros as well, Fuji aren't crazy and stick with it for a reason.

That being said my main gripe is with the red channel. Reds are often pinkish, you can see it right there in the thumbnail below if you compare the red square to the ProRes RAW. The red is missing richness and has some pinkish hue:

Is there any solution for that? Like any color correction or LUT that fixes the red channel?

8 hours ago, deezid said:

It has the worst tonality and color separation of any camera I've tried over the past 4 years. To be fair I never tried the X-T4 and 3, which are considered even worse in that regard. To add the image is also heavily oversharpened in comparison to even Sony cameras.

That's because Fuji use X-Trans CFA pattern vs Bayer. There are pros & cons to that. The pros are less chroma noise at high ISO and hence a more film-like noise. Absence of moiré and no AA filter which explains the perceived extra sharpness. The cons are chroma smoothing in the color channel. This can be a big issue to some, or not at all to others.

Seems like its especially problematic when shooting foliage from a distance. I don't really do that so haven't ever noticed much glaring issues. Only thing I've noticed when shooting Fuji is issues in the red channel which can be annoying.

But overall I love the Fuji color science, the film simulations, F-Log etc. Sharpness should be turned down to the max in camera, again the absence of an AA filter can be kind of shocking but it does add detail so I guess that's more subjective.

8 hours ago, deezid said:

Also the Long-Gop codecs have heavy 1-sec interval flickering and the All-I codecs are impossible to edit on M2 Max machines even, which means you basically have to shoot ProRes.

First time I'm hearing about that, you're talking about the H265 right? impossible to edit on M2 Max sounds nuts, you really sure of that?

8 hours ago, deezid said:

No issues with external BRAW though, all the color information is definitely there from the sensor. The internal image processing is just awful but once bypassed you'll get a nice image. With ProRes RAW the image is even better.

Dynamic range with the 12 bit readout for external RAW is pretty much identical to the 14 bit readout, you won't get more than 12 stops either way. Only advantage over other cameras is that the X-H2s still has is its fast readout.

RAW bypasses the X-Trans CFA so explains why you get the color info back.

I've been messing around with ProRes HQ footage from XH2S and find the IQ brilliant. Super chunky robust files that grade beautifully. In fact I'd be tempted to say its the nicest IQ I've seen from a mirrorless. YMMV.

S5II was rather disappointing, the tiny h265 files just feel paper thin when pushing the grade. S5IIx with ProRes will surely be much better.

Overall Canon does have the richest colours & nicest skin tones. But it can also feel a little exaggerated. 

I dunno I'm really tempted to switch back over to Fuji. again 6K Open-Gate with fast 14-bit readout and ProRes is just a winning combo imo. 

9 hours ago, Chrille said:

IX-H2s seems to have very little rolling shutter in Flog1 (Something between  5 and 6 ms) while it has 11-12 ms in Flog2. As i am also looking for a camera with little shutter, this seems quite interesting...

Yes that's because XH2S uses a stacked sensor capable of 14-bit readout under 30fps. Going above or using Flog1 drops the readout to 12-bit delivering lower RS. 4K120p goes as low as 3.9ms.

If you add to that 6K open-gate and chunky ProRes codec options, you have one of the most solid IQs in mirrorless.

This to me makes XH2S best bang for buck camera for ultimate IQ.