Django

On 1/11/2023 at 2:11 AM, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Now Fuji will have to up its AF game. It is starting to be kinda embarrassing...

Actually Fuji just released a major FW update for XH2S that apparently brings the AF up to standard:

Oh absolutely, I didn't mean to indicate otherwise. Like I said earlier, I genuinely enjoyed the blog post. Clearly a lot of thought and preparation was put into this project. I'm particularly impressed with the 3D previs. What kind of software and skills are necessary for that?

Also this is a camera forum so don't be surprised we ask for tech details. 😉 

Most people here shoot with mirrorless cameras which have their strength & weaknesses. 

I'm sure shooting with an Alexa brings its own set of challenges & rewards. Would be interesting to know what drew you to use that particular package rather than a BM pocket or mirrorless. Image quality I assume. Was it shot in ARRIRAW or Prores? 4.5K? Any particular post pipeline/workflow caveats?

How big of a crew was required?

Btw, as a producer scoring an Alexa Mini LF, lighting and all the accessories like that huge small HD monitor (Cine 24" 4K?) is no small feat and dare I say an almost impossible task for your average Joe. You should be proud of that!

Finally full disclosure on how the $3K was spent, and what you didn't need to spend on would help better understand how you reached such a specific budget since the budget is the title of your blog post and hereby thread. 

Congrats on everything though, nice achievement!

How we shot a 30-minute film for under $3000 with +$100K camera gear.

j/k but that does put things a minimum into perspective! 😉 

Most film students shoot for free but the gear is all borrowed and none of the crew/talent gets paid, it helps!

Nah I can't wait for R5II. Need a new camera ASAP + R5II will probably retail around 4800€ here. 

Sensor size has got nothing to do with it. There is a 1.5x crop on whatever lens you use in 4K60p.

Wether or not that bothers you is up to you but its worth a mention when comparing camera specs imo.

Great initiative! I enjoyed reading the blog post about the planning etc. A bit more tech info would be nice. Like what gear was used to shoot your project (camera, lens, rigs, lights & sound) and how that was all managed on set by the crew.

sounds good! curious to hear how EF lenses will work in regards to AF on the S5ii, when is the camera expected to start shipping?

Yeah we all have our requirements and pet peeves. I'm not saying R6 ii is perfect. The micro HDMI is definitely my biggest annoyance but I have a cage with port lock thingies so I deal with it. Never had an issue with the IBIS but I know others do and I definitely recognise that Panasonic is a leader in stabilisation.

I still haven't decided by the way what my next camera will be. I actually doubt it will be R6ii because of its high price here in EU (2900€). I can buy a new R5 for €3100 or a R5C for €3500. And gain 45MP, 8K RAW etc. I also might go all the way up to an R3 and be done with body upgrades for years to come. 

Or switch to Sony (A7S3/FX3) and last but not least Panny S5ii. FF 6K open-gate really excites me.

I don't shoot that much slow-mo either to be honest but when I do I really appreciate not having a crop.

Another big advantage of shooting 4K50p is it halves the RS. That means 8ms on R6ii which is awesome.

So I mostly shoot in 50p for fast handheld run & gun scenes where I want minimal RS and then conform to 25p no slowdown.

50p is for me mostly a RS workaround trick with added slow mo possibility as a bonus!

The R6 mark1 definitely had various setbacks but I feel the Mark2 fixes everything and even throws in a bunch of unexpected stuff like false colour and pre-record buffer. It now has anti-flicker for video in either auto or manual settings:

So yeah lotta these specs are cross platform and like you said hard to pick a bad camera these days!

S5ii has some great features indeed but S35 crop in 4K60p is a pretty big weakness imo. It has a slow sensor readout with very average RS. So perfect it is not. If FF 4K60p is important to you then R6/R6ii remains the better option imo.

As for AF, I still think Canon dominates. Sony is very good but a good AF system isn't just about a sticky robotic AI imo but how good you the operator can control it. Canon gives me that perfect control while still being very sticky and the latest-gen AF has all the animal eye-AF and various vehicle recognition etc.

So honestly for me, I'd be nervous jumping over to Panasonic. The new PDAF looks promising and is a huge step in the right direction but it's still first-gen and I've seen some tests where its still pretty average. So getting past the new camera hype, and looking at the S5ii fairly, the LUT support and 6K open-gate are to me the only clear advantages.. which is great considering the lower price. Just not important enough to warrant a system switch and losing FF 4K60p, Canon CS and DPAF2 imo. But hey YMMV.

19 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Is there a crop in 4K/50?

I am not sure, but if that's true, that is a main disadvantage in 2023, even for such a cheap camera. Is something to be expected I guess..

I am split for going Pana myself..It is very close to perfect, and I am sure there will be multi firmware updates..

Yes S5ii has a S35 crop in 4K60p and 21ms RS. It's a pretty slow sensor readout like A7IV.

R6II is the only camera in its price range that does a no crop FF 4K60p. 16ms RS.

That's a pretty big advantage for the Canon and with 6K ProRes RAW external, it is still a very worthy alternative to S5ii.

What I'm seeing so far from S5ii leaves me cold when it comes to SOOC standard look. Typical clinical look. But maybe demos with other profiles will change my mind. And there is always LUT support, a great feature for custom SOOC looks.

GH6 has ProRes which is such a great chunky codec and that dual gain sensor so probably the best IQ of a Panny mirrorless. M4/3 also opens up the door to so many interesting lenses. Its a real shame it didn't get PDAF, hopefully a G6 mk2 is in the works. 

The S5II is certainly a very disruptive camera at its price point. Panny has solved its Achilles heel and is now a serious contender in the FF hybrid market. It remains to be seen how reliable this first-gen PDAF is but the tests so far seem promising. 6K open-gate is super dope. On the downside 4K60p is in S35 crop mode and 120p FHD. Rolling shutter is also average at 21ms.

A7IV has a very similar slow sensor with the same 4K60p crop and even worst RS. No 6K but higher 33MP stills. Has cool things like breathing comp and clear image zoom. 

R6II should also definitely get a mention, especially in the US since it is priced the same as A7IV. It is still the only camera in its class that can shoot 4K60p no crop. 6K ProRes RAW external. 16ms RS. Best AF imo. Very easy to grade Clog3. 

In my opinion R6II destroys A7IV due to the above advantages and should be the direct competitor to S5II.

Finally OP did mention "image feel" and SOOC color science. This is were things get subjective. My personal preference is by far for Canon. Sony second with their latest gen CS. Panasonic third, its not bad or anything but I just find every single SOOC Panny footage kinda dull and vanilla. Same thing with the Panny lenses. They're very sharp & accurate but lack any type of mojo. Clinical is what I'd call the Panny look. Now this is just my subjective biased opinion, and some people actually like sharp & accurate colours/lenses.

In the end I always look at lens options and again this is somewhat subjective but for first-party options it is Canon/Sony for me. Sony for their Zeiss range and Canon because of all the affordable EF legacy lenses but RF is also solid and the non-L series RF are quite affordable. I'd probably go Sigma if I were on Panasonic.

@gt3rs incredible footage, just wow!

I've sold my R6 so I'm in the market for a new camera. S5II is on my radar but lens choice and system familiarity will probably keep me locked to Canon. Logical step was R6II but it is selling for 2900€ which is crazy considering I can get a brand new (grey import) R5 for 3200€ or an R5C for 3500€. Very little price difference in between these two currently.

I can't make up my mind though. R5 has got IBIS which is quite important to me and good battery life. And since the latest firmware there are no longer major overheat issues. Still some time limits though and I remember @herein2020 saying he had all kinds of quirks with his copy including major EVF lag.

Everything else I prefer on R5C, namely LUT support which is a game changer in quick-turnaround workflow for me and the separate stills/cine menus. I'm just concerned with absence of IBIS and the dreadful battery life.

I think you have both R5 & R5C but prefer R5C I assume mainly for 8K60p? 

I have very little use for that but I guess its still an added bonus.

Any other reasons why R5C is superior to R5 (aside from the cine OS extras)?

PS: R3 has also gone down on grey market (4600€) and really sounds like a good pro option. Stacked sensor. 6K60p RAW is plenty enough.  IBIS. Extensive battery life. Vertical grip might even come in handy for vertical video shooting which I'm doing more & more. Plus who knows I could maybe develop sports/action career !

Just catching up with the S5II announcement. This is actually the first Panny mirrorless I'd consider as I'm slaved to DPAF since C100 almost a decade ago. A big kudos to Panasonic for finally getting proper video AF.

The specs and price of the S5ii are also very impressive. FF 6K30p with 3:2 open-gate is simply terrific for the asking price.

Neither Canon or Sony offer these specs at such an entry price point. This alone is very aggressive and makes switching tempting.

I've actually sold my R6 so I'm actively in the market for a new mirrorless right now. And this new entry makes my decision making even tougher.

I was hesitating in between simply upgrading to the R6 II or getting FX30. Or investing in higher up R5/A7S3. Or even R3.

So yeah Canon vs Sony. But the S5II (and upcoming S5IIx) is definitely on my radar now as well.

It would be my number one choice as far as bang for buck but actually the last because of these unknown factors:

- Lenses. I'm not at all equipped in them and the offering seems a little stale & pricy.

- Color Science & VLOG. I know nothing about them and kinda afraid the results and learning curve won't be to my satisfaction. This is really important.

- Size/Weight. I've always found the S series the most heavy/bulky system. Well built though.

5 hours ago, markr041 said:

Sure. You can use IBIS, just set lens info in the stabilization menu to 35mm. My videos were all handheld, so IBIS was effective.

It's all manual, of course. The big challenge was focus. The lens barrel has distance markings, the focusing mechanism is long throw and linear, which is all good. The magnification button of the fx30 is really helpful as are the colored focusing aid (I chose red). I didn't try the new full screen color mapping for focus.

Occasionally I would forget I needed to focus, I have relied so much on Sony's auto focus. It does slow you down. I was conservative in not choosing the widest apertures because I didn't want a shallow dof in case I misfocus. Using wider apertures in some shots would have been nicer for image quality. Also wider apertures make what is not in focus more evident.

In DaVinci Resolve desqueezing is easy: just select all clips, right click for clip attributes, and choose the pixel aspect ratio as 1.33X. This perfectly desqueezes this 1.33X anamorphic lens clips.

I shot without a monitor to desqueeze. I have no problem composing shots as the lcd shows exactly what is in the frame, just squeezed. I was pleased with the compositions. I have shot anamorphic before without a desqueezing aid.

Can you magnify while recording?

cool how about some feedback on how the camera operates? is shooting anamorphic a challenge? did you use a monitor to desqueeze? any overall pro/cons?

Not atm but I have in the past so I'm familiar with their AF performance regarding lenses. I've also tested XH2S.

Good idea to start a new thread since this is getting very off-topic.

@Emanuel I don't know what's going on in that video. Could be the lens, AF or user error. 

Fuji AF is very lens dependent because their older lenses were simply not built for video AF (Fuji only got into video with XT2). So again yes you can get pretty good AF with the newer linear motor lenses. You might still get the occasional pulse or hunt and their is no tap to track which is why I'm saying it isn't on par with Canon/Sony AF.

The AF on Fuji is actually pretty good, just not Canon/Sony level good.

5 hours ago, Emanuel said:

*Obviously a camera is not only its AF capabilities, no crop 4K 120fps (against the X-H2s 1.29x and FX30 1.38x crops) makes GH6 to be unique and X-H2s surely trumps as hybrid the FX30 without mechanical shutter is not -- let alone the rolling shutter performance, but when we have a few of capture devices already, we need something to justify a new all round motion picture camera purchase, isn't it? ; )

GH6 & XH2/XH2S shoot ProRes which is a very nice plus codec wise. They also do 6K/8K & XH2S even does open-gate.

Those are the main new features that trump the FX30. The Sony has... better AF. 

XH2S excites me a lot more. Stacked sensor, true hybrid, 6.2K open gate, Xtrans sensor & Fuji film emulations.

But FX30 makes more business sense for me as an FS7 user. Plus I do value strong AF.

12 hours ago, markr041 said:

I think you are really stuck in your ways, and a bit confused. Lens aberrations, added grain, 24 fps and colorations like o & t are the same thing - they distort reality: why did you stop at lens distortions? All of these are completely appropriate for art and fictional narratives. I am all for it!

You also are confused by labels : It does not make a difference what the label is for a camera. The features are what count. And the main advantages of the fx30 "cinema" camera perhaps ironically are precisely high frame rates - it has 4K 60P that is oversampled, unlike most cameras; eg, the fx3. It has 4K 120P, not pixel-binned (eg, the R5). And another key advantage of this APS-C camera is that there are a lot of compact near-par focal *power* zoom lenses available for it, so one can smoothly follow action while shooting, as is necessary in shooting sports, bicycling, skateboarding, running, competitive events and even people walking, shot appropriately to capture that action realistically at 60P. And 10bit color and Slog3 all aid in capturing reality better.

Your discussion of TV's adding frames for 24P video is completely irrelevant to actually shooting at 60P. That is surely not meant to capture real-life motion. I would hate that "effect" too; I also hate pickles. Just adds confusion to the discussion. Shooting at 60P is not the "soap opera" effect of artificially adding frames to 24p films.

Yes, people under 30 watch films. I watch films. I have no problem watching films in 24P - as I said 24P takes you *from* reality, which is what I want in watching fiction. I also might find it odd to see a film in 60P. But for depicting real life movement, dance or walking, you are just plain wrong touting 24P.

24 fps has a long history, just like film. Now we have TV and video, which has a shorter history, as do high frame rate cameras. Embrace what we can now do that we did not or could not do before. It is not a threat to what you like, perhaps based on just what you are used to. And, again, I like the 24p filmic aesthetic, but I am not restricting myself to emulating it when it is inappropriate - I am not making narrative, fictional stories. I am not trying to take people away from reality, rather I am bringing a real-life setting to them, artistically (at least that is the aim). 4K, 8K, HDR, 60P all now available to best depict reality. Probably you dislike all of those - they are not what Edison shot.

You should not impose a very narrow and old filmic aesthetic on anyone's videos. 

Some strong reactions here. First off, I'm not imposing anything. I even concluded with "keep doing what you feel".

I was merely just trying to explain to you why 60p footage is bothersome to some people.

It is not just an "old film aesthetic" lol. 24p/25p/30p is standard. It's what 99% of the videos you see on Youtube are uploaded in. 

60p & 120p are high frame rates generally used in cine cams to over crank and be slowed down. I use them all the time..for slow-motion.

As for TVs adding frames to "smooth" motion it is absolutely relevant as what is does is double the frame rate, meaning 24p/25p/30p footage becomes 48p/50p/60p (and 60p -> 120p). 

Finally FYI I absolutely embrace imaging technology. I'm a working professional filmmaker/videographer. I only deliver 4K content to every platform you can think of. I shoot mainly in 10-bit Slog/Clog. I have a latest gen mirrorless that shoots 4K60p/120p. A Sony FS7 cine cam. A 6K iMac Pro. 60" 4K OLED TV etc. I'm not some old geezer with a film projector shooting black & white rambling about the good old days while smoking a pipe lol.

Anyways, hope we can get off the wrong foot. You sound a little upset by my comments but they were not meant to harm your preferred "aesthetic". Keep doing you my man it's all good! 😉 

53 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

What about overheating issues on XH2S?

I haven't heard of any overheating issues from users plus it has the fan accessory.

@markr041 Never said anything about adding grain, blur or teal & orange. Just that a clinical lens at 60p gives a very un cinematic cheap video look. Like I said I'm allergic to it but it is subjective and perhaps even generational although I think people under 30 watch films and footage aside from sports in 60p. Your smartphone usually defaults at 30p which is a lot closer to 24p. 60p and above are usually slow-motion frame rates.

High frame rate viewing content is what is commonly referred to as the "soap opera effect" and is a feature some TVs now have on default by using interpolation and adding frames. Most people I know hate the effect and turn it off immediately. It's ok for news or sports but ruins any true 24p footage be it narrative work or not.

The irony though is that the motion that you perceive as close to "real life" is exactly what is so bothersome. In the video I linked the dancer actually expresses her feel about how dissatisfied she usually is about motion in her filmed performances. Surely the global shutter of that particular camera helps a lot but it only shoots 24p & 30p in 2K/FHD as its emulating Super16/film.

 Anyways, keep doing as you feel, you seem to be more into the news/sports aesthetic and that's a choice. I just find it a bit odd to buy a "cinema" camera for the "TV" "ENG" look. I don't think you'll find many FX series users shooting like that but again to each their own! If I may make a suggestion I'd advocate 30p as a good middle ground for yourself..and your audience.