Django

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

You really didn't differentiate, you heavily implied that Panasonic and Sony are in the "video" category while the others are in the "cinema" category. You then mentioned things related to the image they produce, such as color science, to explain why. Honestly the entire statement didn't make sense, and you seemed to be lumping the criticism people level at Sony in with Panasonic. What about Pannyboy's philosophy of adding advanced cinema/video features to even their entry level cameras makes them inferior, our soulless, to those other companies? And what DCI options is Pannyboy missing compared to them? Didn't Pannyboy literally introduce DCI to the mirrorless world?

No you are twisting my words. I didn't imply they were in the cinema category, I stated the "others" are in the photography/lens business for almost a century. And I am saying this as a photographer first, videographer/filmmaker second. This obviously has an impact on video/film side as well but that wasn't my main point at all.

Adding "advanced cinema/video" features doesn't make you less soulless. Fuji X top dials, aperture rings on lenses & film simulations is what I'm talking about. CS, Log & RAW video are equally important and demand specific know-how to be well implemented, not just listed on a spec sheet.

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

What does Sony and Panasonic being diversified businesses have to do with being "soulless?" The diversity, and the extra income streams, is what has made their imaging divisions possible. 

They treat imaging like they do TVs. Specs, specs, specs. Its all product. No artistic philosophy, community, service.

Canon for example offer pro cinema services at their Burbank facility (and equivalents around the world):

https://theasc.com/articles/opening-the-canon-burbank-facility

Fuji just had FujiFilm Day at the ASC Clubhouse:

There is a real tangible long standing culture around lenses and pro imaging.

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Re: Panasonic's image. As I said, "I think Panasonic has had the most filmic image out of the major camera manufacturers since the S series was released." The issues with the S5ii, which will eventually get fixed with a firmware update, don't detract from the near universal praise the S series cameras have gotten for the images they produce. You mention the GH5, which is a six-year-old camera: what relevance is that to what I said? And what were any of those companies producing six years ago that came anywhere close to offering the value and image of the GH5 when it came to video? 

 

You're just further proving my point. You're saying Panasonic is just catching up. I'm saying CaNikon/Fuji have been at it for almost a century. Six years ago, Canon had its entire Cinema line available. 1DC brought 4K to the hybrid market in 2012. That's eleven years ago! Canon started the FF revolution. First 8K mirrorless camera in 2020. First RAW internal hybrid. Etc.

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Almost every other company has caught up to Canon when it comes to colors, and most produce overall a better or just as good image (and have for years.) The days of Canon eating everyone's lunch when it comes to color are over.

 

Simply not true:

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

You kinda did... 😉

No what I said was concerning the camera manufacturers. Content is created by creators. There is a big nuance there to understand. I stand by my words that Sony/Panny aren't photography/lens companies at heart. And it still shows. Go look at a big Panasonic trade show event .. 98% will be about home entertainment. Lumix cameras are a fraction of their core business..

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I've been labeled a Panasonic fanboy on here recently, so this will probably come as no shock, but I think Panasonic has had the most filmic image out of the major camera manufacturers since the S series was released. Even in the color department, where I always preferred Canon, I think they've surpassed them in a lot of ways. Everyone else has moved toward more pleasing colors while retaining color accuracy, while Canon still have nice colors that aren't very accurate. That was okay when everyone lagged behind overall, but not so much anymore.

You're entitled your opinion but I find Lumix is among the worst. GH series was way too over-sharp with fake V-Log L up to GH5. Now we're seeing way too much reds on S5ii that give nasty blotchy skin tones and you've got heavy NR issues too.

42 minutes ago, Django said:

Fuji can use a Sony lens but has a completely different processing

Sony sensor not lens!

Also just to be clear, I am not claiming that Sony/Panny cameras = soulless images. The camera's DP and post/grade will be the determining factors. Stick some nice vintage glass to any sensor and it will increase the mojo.

8 minutes ago, So Ros said:

I respect your opinion but I totally disagree.

Have you seen films shot with Panasonic Varicam or Sony Venice (doesn’t look soulless to me) or are we talking about mirrorless cameras

Whats soulless to you ? can you show some examples because alot of things are subjective like Colour science, Design, cinematography etc.  

Sony and Panasonic are hardcore focused on specs and so is canon, Fuji and Leica.. so ?. Also what philosophies does Fuji, Canon and Leica have that Sony and Panasonic does not.  Is it because of Sony sensors in which Fuji and Leica uses.

Don’t want to sound harsh, just trying to understand.  I don’t see anything special about Canon, Fuji and Leica.  It’s all so subjective anyways.

CaNikon, Fuji & Leica have a long history in camera/lens making, we're talking 80 to +100 years. This reflects till today in their cameras. Fuji can use a Sony lens but has a completely different processing, the X line isn't even Bayer but X-Trans. This doesn't stop at the sensor level, a camera is way more than a sensor. Fuji has film simulations and the X line was based on retro camera dial ergonomics.  

Sony & Panasonic come from a consumer electronics background.. and it shows. They are totally utilitarian tools. That's the soullessness I'm talking about. 

And yes I'm talking about the mirrorless line from a hybrid camera standpoint. High-end cinema cams is a whole different ballgame where Sony & Panny are competing with ARRI/RED. 

Yeah I can't say I'm exactly thrilled about going Sony either. I come from photography and have always gravitated towards historic camera companies: CaNikon, Fuji, Leica. There is something a little soulless about Sony, Panasonic & Samsung (RIP) in my opinion. They focus hardcore on specs but not so much the art form. That is what separates "video" from "cinema" I guess. I'm talking in terms of design, philosophy, color science, DCI options etc. 

But yeah Sony dominates the whole broadcast, production, post segments so almost no choice if you wanna play nice with them.

lol.. I do find it interesting to see these younger cats see the light so to say. But sensor size aside, the FX30 does have a more detailed 6K oversampled IQ than A7S3/FX3 and the lower 3200 dual ISO can be more useful than 12800. Only in low-light does the FX30 suffer compared to the FF versions.

23 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Traitor! The lens situation is really bad with RF-S..it wasn't even good with EF-S, I recently wrote how much better was the NX system for lenses and especially me..

There is a rumor about a videocentric R7 though..

Lol.. like I said I'm not leaving Canon, just not rushing towards any purchase atm. 

I'm already on Sony FS7 for most pro work so its really only logical to get the FX30. My speed booster, accessories & lenses will carry over.

That said I completely forgot about the R7C rumour! That could actually be a pretty cool camera if priced like the FX30.

On 2/16/2023 at 4:45 PM, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Here in Brazil is hell regarding to cameras...you almost go gray, since only Canon, Fuji and (kinda) Sony have official sales here (yeah, even Nikon walked out).

Yeah I know, I just sold my R6 last month to a Brazilian who had travelled to Europe just to shop. He explained the whole import situation to me. Not limited to cameras too if I understood him correctly.

Anyways, I'm getting an FX30 for my pro video needs. a bit more expensive than R7 but a lot better video options and codecs. I actually considered the R7 for a second but lack of RF-S glass is a no go for me. Can't invest in a crop sensor with no native glass support. And with third party RF lenses banned it's even less tempting to go that route.

Might still grab an R8 for FF needs (mainly stills) as I'm still invested in Canon system although a used R6 will cost you the same and might still be a better purchase considering you get IBIS & full battery. Yes the camera overheats but only on certain long recording conditions.

lol, kids style is mega cringe but whatever the footage is what's interesting: camera never looses focus despite shooting fitness action subjects at f1.2 while doing dynamic shots. That's a pretty impressive stress test imo. And that's the way I like to shoot with mirrorless: handheld, wide open, up-close. Very clean IQ at 4K60p. IBIS is good, gets rid of micro jitters but no floaty look.

I should probably mention the FX30 for me is going to be mainly as a pro tool within a certain job category. Canon is still my preferred system but I'm still undecided which route to go with them so will postpone that purchase until later. That said I am pretty excited about the little FX30. Something about that compact body and the IQ. By the way, Youtubers usually don't influence me but this guy kinda did for some reason:

True all cameras are pretty great these days, really just a matter of finding the model/system that best fits your needs!

Just saw this awesome and affordable accessory recently came out, EF to E-mount Drop-in Vari ND Smart adapter:

Ok just thought I'd share that after long consideration of all the new cameras released these past few months (XH2/XH2S, R6II, S5II etc) I have decided to go with the lesser hyped FX30! It's kind of a weird decision because on paper the camera doesn't have any of the wow specs you expect today: full-frame, high resolution, open-gate etc. 

So why this choice? Well first off, I own an FS7 with some nice E-mount glass and an EF speedbooster. The FX30 is pretty much a baby FS7 so it will be the perfect B-cam or even A-cam for handheld shoots.

Then there is the form factor, ergonomics and build specs. For this price its the only camera with this type of cine oriented cageless design. With the top handle, XLR unit and active cooling this camera is ready for the most rugged run & gun. Dedicated video buttons (magnification, peaking, zebras, shutter). Zoom rocker. I also like the fact the industrial pro matte grey look, it doesn't scream consumer camera like all the alternative (non cine) options. This may seem trivial but looking the part matters when it comes to certain clients.

Finally of course the actual specs: 6K oversampled 4K up to 60p no crop in very chunky ALL-I 10-bit codecs. 4K120p. Cine EI. LUT support. Latest Sony AF. RAW output. Dual base ISO etc. Nothing crazy but overall solid video specs.

I like the idea that its a native S35 sensor. I like to shoot wide open and this gives more workable DoF. Also opens up plenty of affordable cine lenses, especially anamorphic. And I wanna go FF with my EF glass, just pop the speed booster.

The only real downside for me with this cam is the absence of an EVF and mechanical shutter. This is going to make stills shooting less pleasant, then again my phone has no EVF or mechanical shutter and I use that daily no problem so maybe the transition will be less difficult than I imagine. In any case this is a way more video oriented hybrid than lets say a Fuji XT/XH series.

R8 seems ideally suited for this. Hard to get a more compact camera with FF 4K60p 10-bit capability at entry level price:

Stick the cheap 16mm / 24mm / 35mm STM and you're good to go..

love my iPhone 13 but good luck getting that kinda IQ on it!

Not even worth arguing with at this point. I guarantee you if this camera would be called S8 with a square form factor and a Lumix badge, Panny boys would be praising it. Panasonic users are extremely apologetic when it comes to their own shortcomings like DFD focus ( real men don't use AF ) oh and remember when GH5S was the no IBIS $2500 flagship? real men don't need IBIS. Sensor size? real men prefer MFT to FF.  etc etc.

Confirmation bias all day.

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I'm merely pointing out, in response to people insisting on comparing the R8 to 3 year old cameras to point out how great it is, that someone before long will inevitably come along and release a FF 4k60p camera but without all the compromises for under $2000. 

That's what so-called pundits where expecting three years ago when the original R6 dropped. Still hasn't happened, not even in the sub-$4K range. So who's going to do it? Sony? Nope, they won't put a new FF sensor that will cannibalise their best selling A7IV inside a $1500 camera. Besides FF 40K60p 10-bit sensor won't work in the tiny A7C body. Panasonic? They just released S5ii, have S5iiX planned with no FF4K60p and they don't do $1500 cameras. Who's left.. slow-poke Nikon? We're still waiting on Z8 (a $4K camera). 

Like it or not Canon have been pioneering quite a number of things in their mirrorless range, including 6K/8K internal RAW cameras. Something only the $6K Z9 can currently do. So yeah sometimes you just gotta give them credit where credit is due. Too easy to just dismiss it by saying no big deal, someone else will do the same soon when they've literally proven to be years ahead. 

That's awesome it is working out so good for you, really makes me wanna try one out ASAP!

1 hour ago, ade towell said:

Audio - this is the first mirrorless camera where I feel comfortable recording sound internally on important stuff. The 96khz 24 bit with line level and decent preamps I think make all the difference. I use Sound Devices mix pre-d for XLR on the base of the camera. I know Panasonic and Sony and now Canon using Tascam have an xlr audio adaptor you can attach to the hotshoe but that seems a crazy place to hang xlr cables to me and looks like an accident waiting to happen. Am very happy not using external audio and syncing up.

Could you expand a bit on this, how are you recording audio internally with the sound devices unit? Just via mini jack from stereo out to stereo in?

Something weird going on with N-RAW. Why is there NR going on? Latitude test kinda disappointing. Sigma FP deserves better (12-bit CDNG). Wish Canon RAW was also in the mix, interesting to hear positive comments on your short experience with R3. Its a camera I'm still considering..

5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

and now for something completely different!

First pre-order price here 1.939€ (body only ofcourse)!!

R6mkII is 3.200€, a price for the R8 closer to 1.650 (that I was expecting/hoping the price to be) is almost half the money of the R6mkII. They both are way overpriced for what they are, so I am going to pause for a while..

I do not agree that this is the "wrong" camera for the forum though. It is a comprehensive proposition for 1.500$, just not for 1939€!

In the end, is the placement in the market that matters..a few hundred money(sic) can make or brake a product. Any product.

I was checking these 2 new lenses also..oh my..what a (or two) joke(s)..

The S5iiX and 2 lenses are 3.000$ and the 20-60 is thousands times more usable, and that 50mm 1.8f seems ace..

Ouch that hurts! EU has about 30% increase from US prices (20% VAT + 10% markup) for Sony & Canon products. It looks like your country has 40%!

Brazil I think is the worst. I'd advise grey market at that point. 😉 

What is strange and works strongly in the favour of Panasonic is that here their gear is only 19% more than the US. That's less than VAT meaning Panny not only doesn't do a markup, they cut off a percent from their margins for the EU market. Smart strategy that I'm sure pays off!

13 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Of course the overheating will be an issue, if it goes for an hour straight in hot climates I will be alright..

Check out Lok's R8 test, he sticked it in his oven set at 37 degrees Celsius and it ran for an 1h10mn in 4K25p after what his SD was full and he stopped testing it, the new temp meter was only at about 3 bars. The R50 overheated immediately upon turning on after his initial 5mn off warm up. R8 battery life was I think 53mn (you'll have to check) in those conditions which isn't great but not totally bad.

8 hours ago, herein2020 said:

For me specifically, the FF sensor comes with too many compromises and those compromises are more important to me than the sensor size. If I absolutely had to purchase a FF body today right now I would get the R6II; if price was more important to me then I would get the S5II, there is just no scenario for me where I would get the R8.

Totally understandable. Not too many scenarios for the EOSHD crowd to go for an R8, we're not really the target. Places like Cined, Gerald Undone etc haven't even bothered reviewing it. Heck even the R5/R6/R5C barely get any traction. Canon is absolutely hated on by pundits. That said, on the field, or even right here, most Canon users are working pros, shooting silently and getting paid while others circle jerk over their bonus features shooting alleys and trees in glorious anamorphic splendour and wobble free stability. Being slightly facetious here, I think all cameras are pretty great right now compared to just a generation or two ago.

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

An entry model camera that was released three years ago! Within 6 to 12 months there will be a FF camera that exceeds what the Canon R8 can do, and probably significantly, while priced competitively. 

 

We can only speak about what's out now. We can sure hope Sony will refresh the outdated A7C specs but they will have a big challenge with heat management in such a tiny body. 

Also keep in mind the original R6 that also came out three years ago already had things like FF 4K60p 10-bit, thanks to its sensor coming from the then flagship 1DX3. Its an interesting move from Canon putting flagship tech inside a low/mid tier camera and it sure has paid off (R6 is their biggest seller).

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

You are laser focused on that one spec and just ignoring everything else that was cut from this camera. Outside that one spec, and the better autofocus, it's not even a more capable camera than the 2 1/2 year-old S5 that now goes for $1000 used and the same price brand new as the R8.

I am focused on that feature because I find it so impressive that a $1500 camera can do it. Again you have to step up to a $4K A7SIII to do it in Sony land and its not even an oversampled image! I think not even the S1H can do it in Panny land. So its no small feat.

But sure we can talk about other things like the low rolling shutter and DPAF2 that crushes the S5's DFD.

But in the end the S5 and R8 target vastly different customers, it's pointless to even compare them.

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

It's not so much that it's not a big deal because of those cameras, it's just not that big of a deal because it's the natural progression camera companies have been moving toward, except most of those companies are moving towards that without removing camera features like Canon does.

You seem to fail to understand camera segments. Again the R8 is a cut down R6ii or an upgraded RP, however you wanna see it. They made some hardware choices to reach that $1500 entry-level price point. But aside from IBIS on the video side there are no compromises as far as specs. You get everything from the R6ii. You even get some things that aren't in the R5. This is a good philosophy and one can only hope Sony will follow. AFAIK Panasonic don't play in that $1500 FF segment so again pointless to even compare.

I do think what's interesting is that video is finally starting to become equally if not more important than stills for the general public. surely the influence of YouTube, social networks etc. Everybody wants to get into it, do slomo, grade their footage. This has the beneficiary effect of camera manufacturers putting higher video specs than previous generations inside low-mid tier bodies. Its a real change in policy for companies like Canon & Sony that used to really cripple hard on video specs to protect cine lines. I still think FF4K60p in 10-bit with Clog3 is quite a nice surprise in an entry-level FF mirrorless. Yeah its no big deal for all those of us with R5's, A7SIII's, S1Hs etc but think of the little guys 😉 

2 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

 

I guess I just look at it the other way, I don't consider the crop sensor to be a compromise at all and I use it with FF glass every day; in fact, I did not buy a single new lens for the R7, even my EF-S glass works with it.  I actually consider it a strength since it produces identical IQ as the R5 up to 3200ISO, but with better battery life, better IBIS, and better heat handling.

What I do consider a much bigger compromise is the single card slot, worse ergonomics, no IBIS, etc of the R8 just because it is a FF sensor.

I do agree, no matter who this camera appeals to; consumers win in the end with more choice.

Yeah the R7 as a B-cam to your R5 may work better for you and all the others that chose to buy an R7 for whatever reasons suit them. Other folks just might not want a crop sensor on their EF/RF lenses. 

And yes there are compromises with the R8. But as gt3rs pointed out, the R6ii takes care of all of them. you just have to pay extra. The R8 is a cut-down R6ii, wether or not it appeals to you is a different matter but rest assured there is a target market at that price point. As someone else pointed the RP is still a big seller on Amazon and such, despite super outdated specs.

6 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

The A7c is like 3 years old. We're setting the bar awful low if "it's a better value than a 3 year old camera" is all it takes to praise Canon. It seems like any time they don't release a complete lemon people feel the need to praise them like you'd praise a dog for going to the bathroom outside while potty training them. (sorry, I'm currently potty training a pup!) 

It's the most entry-level FF model, that's why it should be compared to the similarly priced A7C. Not a Z9, A1 etc.

And yeah Canon should be praised for not gimping the video specs and giving it FF4K60p & 10-bit.

Like I said this is beneficial for consumers no matter if you're on a rival system. Like for example hopefully it pushes Sony to replace the A7C with an updated A7IV sensor and also give it 10-bit & 4K60p. Alongside IBIS it would have an advantage and be competitive.  

9 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I didn't say it should have a single thing it doesn't have, all I did was compare the missing features to the type of people those missing features will drive away and concluded with the fact that IMO the R7 at the same price point is a better value while I tried to imagine what type of consumer would find the R8 appealing; I never said it should have xyz feature at its price point.

Also, I didn't find in Canon's documentation for the R8 that it has the hybrid hotshoe, maybe they say it in one of the YT videos or comprehensive reviews, but I didn't see it listed in Canon's marketing materials.

Yes, the RF lenses you listed are "cheap" for RF lenses but I was comparing the ergonomics of the R8 to the Canon Rebel and regardless of how cheap RF lenses are when compared to other RF lenses, they are still more expensive than APS-C lenses meaning you are still  paying quite a bit for a camera that has a lot of compromises at its price point considering the R7 at the same price point has none of them.

Well for starters R7 is an APS-C cam so that's a pretty big compromise if you have FF EF/RF glass. There really isn't much in terms of APS-C RF options. IQ wise, R7 4K60p is line-skipped. You do get a slightly better body & IBIS. But for those that need/want FF on a budget, that is R8s target. Just look at it as the new and enhanced RP. I could see myself grabbing one for a B-Cam + travel cam.

Yeah the R8 hardware isn't crazy but remember the R6 had the 1DX3 sensor and R6ii improved on it and this is what you get inside R8. I still find it pretty crazy you get one of Canons flagship sensors inside a $1500 camera. They didn't gimp it video spec wise either giving it face only detect, a feature not even present in the R5.. 

5 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

I have some of the cheap RF primes and lots of EF ones, do not underestimate the power of the EF stock around the planet!

Agreed, EF L glass has never been cheaper and is still great. I also have some RF STM primes and they're cheap and compact, have IS and macro. It is a bummer no more third party lenses from Sigma and such though..