Django

2 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Chris says Jordan is shooting 4K video.

..yet in Jordans video segment, a lot of the footage is labelled "EOS R 1080/24P with electronic stabilization".

imo @Jordan Drake should have used full frame lenses such as the RF 24-105mm or EF 16-35mm L for those FHD shots with EIS.

RF > EF-L > EF/EF-S. 

The main benefit of getting an EOS R imo is to get access to the new RF lens system.

I'd still favor a 5D4/1DX2/1DC if it weren't for the introduction of this new lens mount/line-up.

Optical quality aside, putting an EF-S lens (wether 10-18, 17-55 etc) on a EOS-R doesn't make much sense if you are shooting FHD, since you are cropping in and getting results closer to 720p (not to mention losing FF FoV). Which is again why a lot of those DPReview shots appear so soft (EF-S+EIS+FHD). Especially VS a C100 which is a native Super35/APS-C sensor that downscales from 4K. If your goal is to use EF-S lenses, you are better off with a cheaper M body + adapters.

Keep in mind folks Jordan used a slow cheapo 10-18mm EF-S lens on that Hawaii footage. So he's already in APS-C crop mode, adding further crop with EIS, shooting mainly in 1080p with an optically bottom range slow aperture ultra-wide lens. Hence some noisy/soft shots. not exactly the best testing combo imo.

DPAF Face Tracking, it isn't magic. If you got several faces in the shot, it may trip. A73 is even more unreliable in such circumstances.

EIS also has it's limits, it isn't IBIS or a gimbal.. if you're doing severe motion, you'll get some warping.

I'll be putting all these things to the test once I get my unit next week but you do have to be a little realistic over expectations/limitations of all these features.

@Mattias Burling Good question. I've responded to you in EOS R thread  

26 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

 

@Django do you know if one can setup switching between HD and 4K on a custom button, my menu, etc?

 

Manual doesn't indicate any direct one button movie resolution configuration. I'm sure my menu probably allows "movie recording quality".

But imo, the fastest way to switch between HD & 4K is to simply switch in between the 3 custom movie modes. Either by hitting mode and turning the dial or by assigning Mfn button to custom mode.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Funny, I also had my hands on the EOS R at Photokina and could have sworn it felt like a cheap $500 mirrorless camera with poor ergonomics and really dated video mode, but then I don't have 700,000 hungry Canon viewers on my YouTube channel to feed.

I respectively disagree. on build quality, it felt solid besides the construction speaks for itself: weather sealed, magnesium alloy body, made in japan. 

Perhaps the coating is what gave that "cheap" impression, a sort of matte powder coat. Personally i kinda like it.

The ergonomics, well that is subjective. For example some people hate Fuji X dials, which seems ludicrous to me. Flip out screens, some people love them others don't (I'm actually not a big fan).

Not sure how long you spent on the EOS R, but it took me a while to get it set up the way my brain works. I was very frustrated with it for the first 20mn. For example autofocus point selection required me to set drag & touch to relative and adjust the zone to top right to simulate joystick control I'm used to. The multifunction bar also took some configuration and getting used to, I ended up setting the swipe gesture to Kelvins, which i found was pretty neat. 

For video recording, as Mattias pointed out, you just hit record button and it can go straight to your Custom 3 video settings. That's awesome.

Overall handling & balance i thought was great, will be getting the grip as i do a lot of vertical still shooting. The fact Z series grip doesn't have vertical shutter/controls is a deal breaker for my type of shooting.

21 hours ago, Inazuma said:

That's great Andrew.

By the way have you heard of the Canon EOS R? I've been trying it all weekend and it's just fantastic!

I know your comment is forum banter but i've actually just been using the EOS R.. and i actually like it.. enough to even purchase it! (putting flame suit on)

But please don't shame me Andrew, I am not a paid Canon shill !!! ?

4 hours ago, Snowbro said:

I would like to see peter m disclose his canon payments once. The 6d ii & the eos r promotion; saying he is going to use it all the time, then still just uses the 1dx ii. Makes you wonder, maybe canada doesn't have laws requiring you to disclose?

He had to ship the camera back to canon (also gives further insight into EOS R vs 1DX2): Saying goodbye to the EOS R... For now

Maybe i'm being naive but i seriously don't think every youtuber praising the EOS R is necessarily a paid shill or did so because they were sent to Hawaii.

Having some hands-on experience with the camera and it's lens system does me give a solid impression, especially as a hybrid / B-cam to a 1DX2/C100/200/300.

@Mattias Burling didn't get to test audio input yet

@Yurolov the manual does state that 10-bit CLOG out option is 4k only. i do still have hope the FHD hdmi out is at least 4:2:2 but we'll have to see.

Speaking of digital IS, it has 2 settings (normal & enhanced) with 2 crop factors. i didn't notice much if any quality loss on either settings. i know most people loathe digital IS & crop factors (and so do i in most circumstances) but it was kind of fun turning my 35mm into a 55/85/105mm on the fly..

Yeah the beefier ALL-I codec surely helps.. a bit.. but i think the RF lenses with the optical in cam optimizations and overall tack-sharp performance are probably the bigger assets.. the 50 F1.2 is just really something else, even wide open. Kind of blown away by it tbh. In 4K the detail is insane. And in FHD it is daaamn good too. Does it equate the C100's downsampled from 4K FHD IQ? With EF lenses on both, probably not. But with the RF's.. imo it's a close call. I don't own the camera yet, but i will try and set-up some comparison shots with my C100 since some of you seem interested. I do have an atomos, so it will also be interesting to compare without codecs in the equation.. in any case i'm pretty sure already EOS R will be a great B-cam to a C100/200/300!

I had a go at the EOS R today. Took a while to wrap my head around it and get it fully setup the way I liked but was a happy camper after that.

I'm happy to report the 1080p is a lot sharper then 5D3/5D4 (almost C100 sharp) especially with the awesome RF lenses (the 50mm 1.2 RF is crazy btw).

4K has poor RS.. but the ALL-I codec produces pretty thick quality files with nice motion. C-log looks really good too (with classic EOS cinema & C200 color matrix options).

Movie IS coupled to the bi-directional lens IS was really steady. 

Stuck my 35mm 1.4L via adapter and was pretty much close to native performance..

All in all i'm pretty pleased/impressed by the camera (despite its obvious limitations) and look forward to trying it out further once I acquire it next week.

PS: i'm having trouble reading the 4K MP4 files inside Davinci/FCPX (getting media offline error) anyone know what that's about??

ok now for some adult entertainment:

Pretty balanced review coming from a pro with actual hands-on experience & comparison to his A73..

@Kisaha I agree.. I was shopping second hand stuff this summer in Stockholm's Södermalm (clothing, furniture, watches) and pricing was all over the place.. some real bargains for sure, but some over priced stuff as well. Some dealers confessed pricing changes depending on season (sometimes week to week) which kinda surprised me. Again supply/demand but it's a different market for sure then other capitals I've been to.

@jonpais Second hand A7IIIs (and i think D850s) actually sold above retail in places like the US where the launch was delayed from other parts of the world..

I think it's going to be hard getting a hold of a new EOS-R once initial stock runs out.. second hand units probably won't appear on market until 6-8 months (when new model is announced) and if they do they might actually carry a premium, like other popular cameras that were out of stock. It's all about supply & demand..

45 minutes ago, jonpais said:

They’re almost free! Only $6,000 for a set of three.

A bargain compared to Canon's versions... most filmmakers rent though.. unless you're Tommy Wiseau  

Pair the ND adapter with a couple of these..

add an atomos V for that 10-bit 4:2:2 goodness, and set focus to MF Guide mode  and you got yourself a nice mini C200 on the cheap..

Well it's nice to hear you say some positive things about Canon Andrew ?

I do feel like Canon catches a lot of flack. Justifiably so in many aspects, but they do nail certain things.

A little concerned about the "cheap" feel. I was under the impression it was "1DX build quality". How would you consider so compared to A73/XT3/Z etc?

Also FWIW i do shoot 2K/4K. Do got the luxury of renting equipment when budget allows. But hear this, just yesterday i was comparing footage shot in 4K on my XT2 to 1080p footage shot on my C100 externally to ProRes 4:2:2 (upscaled) on my new 4K OLED TV.. and the C100 footage looked vasty superior to my eyes. Kind of defies logic i know, and i'll have to do more serious tests but codecs shouldn't be under-estimated me thinks..

Dual Pixel AF still wrecks all the competition. Now with eye-tracking & -6EV AF.. it keeps getting better.

But the whole race to specs battle is a little disconcerting. A camera doesn't become obsolete because so & so new feature isn't present, or it hasn't got the latest greatest sensor. All the cameras out today are capable of amazing results in the right hands.

I still shoot on occasion with a 2005 5D Mark 1 & regularly with the 2012 C100 mark 1. I don't care if the specs are "dated" I love their output. My friends/clients do to. Color science, ergonomics, lenses.. those are the type of things that seduce me primarily. And Canon kills it in those areas. Pretty sure a 2yo 5D4 30MP sensor will do more than ok. 4K crop? yeah that's a bummer. fortunately i still mostly shoot/deliver in 1080p. 

Everybodies needs/priorities is different. I understand the EOS R limitations are total deal breakers to others. I'd love it myself if the camera had IBIS, FF 4K & HFR. 

But you can't have it all & the body/glass combo sounds very attractive to me, and I'm already invested in pricey L lenses so it's kind of a no brainer. 

1 hour ago, wolf33d said:

Not fair enough. This is ridiculous. As ridiculous as Peter Mckinon videos on Youtube. The guy says he is leaving his 1DX2 and switching to the EOS R, and that the limitations (no FH 120p, wait who shoots 720p?, big 4K crop,...) will actually force him to push his creativity. 
Most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It goes as far as this to defend Canon. 

 

It's far from ridiculous. Limitations can spark creativity, it's a well known concept. Look it up.

In his follow-up video, he further explains how he will be losing 120p & a lighter crop on 1DX2 but also gaining a lot for video (EVF, Flip screen, C-Log, peaking, MF guide, 10-bit 422 out, lighter codec etc) with a much lighter body, ergonomics, superb new RF lenses with extra ring control & vari- ND filters for EF glass collection. 

People seem to only focus on the negatives, but omit the positives this camera system is bringing... to Canon shooters.

Quote

The fact is, pro or not pro, reliability or not, usability or not, those specs are unacceptable. Using a 2y old sensor is not acceptable especially when it was far behind the competition 2y ago. 
1.7x crop is not acceptable, no one does that. In all interviews Canon answer they could not do no crop. Well every manufacturer on the planet can except them. 3y old FF camera can do 120p in FHD but Canon say they could not with the EOS R. This is a joke, people should buy 0 EOS R to shake this freaking company and make them think about releasing something decent. 

Ok I understand, they have other advantages like ergonomics and so on. This does not and cannot justify the above. They do not need 4K120P RAW sure, just DECENT spec. Even if they have the lowest spec of the competition. But staying 5 years behind is so ridiculous. 

Stop defending what can't be. 

 

I think you forget these hybrid cameras are first & foremost still photography cameras with video capabilities. 4K crop & HD 120p aren't necessarily deal breakers to many.

I'll grant you Canon is behind & slow in some aspects (IBIS, sensor tech) but in other places such as Dual Pixel AF, lenses, ND adapter.. they are innovative & class leading.

So it's not a question of defending, but weighing the pros & cons that fit your own needs. No camera is perfect. In the end you buy into a system, not just a body.

15 hours ago, DaveAltizer said:

Our first look video is live... new info to me... bigger battery than GH5 

 

 

Sorry but I'm just baffled by Pannys attitude here, I mean the rep won't even confirm what the 24-105 aperture is..?!!! or anything at all for that matter.. notice by the end of the interview, the rep is the one holding the mic to Dave.. SMH.

I'm sure the S1 will have good things for video but with virtually zero information aside 4K60p, i find this the most cringe worthy camera announcement as of late.

I also find the lens alliance thing a bit confusing.. the whole system just kinda sounds thrown together and rushed in a last ditch me too effort.  

kinda surprised nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room: 1DX2 hasn't got C-Log. or peaking. or 10-bit. For $6K i find that hard to overcome. We're almost talking C200 price range..

???

1 hour ago, Yurolov said:

I think it has more to do with acquisition rate and the algorithm than the sheer amount of the points. 

I think AF point density is a lot more important than you may think in these particular MILC models as they are all line types.

That is why Canon went with a whooping 5,655 AF point number to ensure similar if not better performance to it's DSLR counterpart.

This recent Canon engineer interview from IR gives some interesting AF info relative to Z series:

In conventional phase-detection autofocus systems, autofocus points can be either "line" or "cross" type, depending on what orientations of subject detail they're sensitive to. Line-type points can only "see" subject detail oriented around one axis (horizontal or vertical), cross-type points can detect and respond to subject detail in either direction.

As is the case with the new Nikon Z7 and Z6 full-frame mirrorless cameras, the autofocus points in the EOS R are all horizontally-oriented line-type points, meaning they're sensitive only to subject detail in that direction. (The terminology can be a little confusing; horizontal points are sensitive to detail that's horizontal, meaning vertically-oriented objects. As an example, horizontal points can focus on picket fences, but not on window blinds.)

This seemed like a weakness to me, but when I asked the Canon engineers about it, they gave essentially the same answer the Nikon engineers had about the Z7: Thanks to the very high density of AF points, the chances of missing focus on a subject because it has no horizontal detail are very low. Even with a subject like window blinds, if the camera is the tiniest bit tilted relative to the subject, an edge of a slat (for instance) would cross an area covered by an AF point, letting the camera focus.

Aside from the 1DX2, no other FF camera can currently do 4K60p.. internally or externally. Hardly a "complete miss" unless you are comparing to XT3/GH5 who are both crop sensors.

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

My fingers are crossed they're just two cameras with two different sensor resolutions, with no surprising crippling of the Z6.

I don't think Nikon has done much of the way in "surprise crippling" have they? Look at the D5 vs D500, kinda is two cameras but with different sensors in it. They didn't really hold back on the D500 did they?

 

 

Other than the sensor, the main difference in between the Z6 & Z7 is the AF system: Z7 has 493 phase detect points vs 273 on the Z6.

It would appear on paper that with half the PDAF points, the Z6 AF could be significantly less accurate.

@IronFilm Doesn't sound that bad.. dude seems pretty wrekcless shooting by sea shore, boats.. with sand, water, salt spray etc.. when cine cams like that aren't even weather sealed!! And in the end Canon serviced his out of warranty camera free of charge. Believe me that's pretty mild compared to the numerous Nikon D750 recalls, which mine was affected and took months to get replaced (Nikon Europe run out of parts and had to order from China factory wit boat delivery). That's one of the main reasons I left Nikon and went back to Canon, who still make their FF gear in Japan. I am very glad to hear though that the Z6/Z7 will be manufactured in the Sendai factory (which only the D5/F6/DF are still built).