Django

wait is continuous eye-AF supposed to come to video as well? now that could be huge if done right!

Magic Lantern I'd say are responsible for popularising Raw video to a wide demographic.

Canon only started implementing it on the C300 mk2 (externally) and just recently internally on the C200.

Reading that article seems to confirm their hybrid specs are limited by tech not just protecting cine line.

EOS R kind of proves that by including a higher bitrate internal codec, Clog, 4K, DPAF & 10-bit out.

Aside from the crop & RS (which are certainly sensor / tech limitations) it is basically like a mini rawless C200.

I could see their upcoming high-end pro model having Canon RawLite internal or at the very least external. Especially now that Nikon have upped the ante.

This Canon sensor leaked here by @androidlad could very well be the one in that higher end model:

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/uploads/monthly_2018_12/CanonGS.jpg.5e3f44aaded642bf900782c3924a8325.jpg

Imagine 5K Raw with Dual Pixel AF.. and Global Shutter. I'd be set for the next half-decade..

51 minutes ago, Geoff_L said:

Ah, not cool... Is there a way to transcode ProRes Raw to a Resolve compatible codec without too much loss ? Just out of curiosity, I know it may be a hassle to dive into this process...

Surely, given you have access to a mac with FCPX. You should then be able to convert to any codec including ProRes4444..

41 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Sincerely, people should chill out a bit. We are getting a Full Frame raw 4k camera, with very very very very  good low light, dynamic range, auto focus, IBis, viewfinder etc for 2700 USD. Less if you buy the complete filmmaker kit. There is nothing remotely close to that and people are still complaining. What is small enough for people these days. The Z6 Ninja V combo is smaller than my d7100 Dslr and a Flash. When you see the amount of active cooling something like the Pocket 4k needs for a sensor that is 1/4 of the Z6 people have to be a bit realistic. Another thing to consider is a user of a Ninja Flame, having an external recorder like this brings so much functionality for focusing, previewing and exposure tools that go so much beyond just a recorder.

 

We're all aware of the benefits but also cons of using external recorders.

I'm not complaining, just saying I wish it could have been internal (just like i also wish N-log could be internal).

ML got the 5D3 (a 2012 camera!) to shoot 14-bit 3K Raw internally. The main issue going higher was the 100mb/sec card buffer cap.

Z series should manage with their super fast XQD/CFexpress. But i don't know, maybe ProRes Raw is too much to handle CPU wise.

Or maybe it's a licensing deal with Atomos..?

This is big news but i think it's worth mentioning that ProRes RAW currently only opens in FCPX. If you are on Adobe, Resolve or PC it's going to be a no go (AFAIK).

That is pretty limiting compared to other recent Raw codecs like Canon Raw Light which has native support in FCPX, Resolve & Avid.

It's also bit of a shame Nikon couldn't work out to record ProRes Raw internally. They opted for those expensive XQD/CFexpress media cards, why not take advantage of the speed they offer to record high bitrate internally?

Hard to believe David Lynch once had the number one show on US network television, or that MTV was the go-to channel for indie music..

I don't follow much British TV (or any TV) these days but Black Mirrors is certainly one of the more imaginative shows out there now imo.

Still haven't gotten through all the alternate endings of its latest interactive episode. Would love to see a BTS about the process/filming of that.

14 hours ago, Snowbro said:

It does it with pixel binning or line skipping I heard. Also extreme internal over sharpening, even when set to the lowest (can't say for sure, dont have the camera)

The Z6 is full readout with no line skipping or pixel binning. You are thinking of the Z7 which does do that.

The downsides are poor RS, external Log only and it appears the AF becomes unusable with Log on.

So yeah there still is no perfect hybrid mirrorless for video today. Maybe next gen Canon/Nikon/Sony..

Definitely have a look at FHD Crop mode. It is indeed supersampled from 4K and has super good sharpness/detail that rivals C line FHD.

The way i have my EOS R setup is FF FHD on Movie Custom 1, FHD Crop mode on Custom 2 & 4K on Custom 3.

By pressing mode and selecting C1/C2/C3 i can very quickly switch modes depending on the scene and double the focal length of my primes.

Personally, I love the ergonomics. I use the grip though. Its quite different from any other camera so it might take a moment to get used to it. 

The customisation of the camera is pretty deep, i really enjoy that too.

20 hours ago, wolf33d said:

It's different here. The competition has been better for years for video as far as DSLR/mirrorless are concerned. The EOS R sucks for video compared to 2y old competitors that's a fact. 
You are happy with it good for you but it is still a fact. 

 

Canon 1DX2 is still the only FF camera that can do 4k60p in early 2019. Fact.

Dual Pixel AF is still the most reliable AF for video. Fact.

Sony has been maxing out 8-bit 100mb codecs for some years. that's another fact.

Quote

And saying that big pro cameras dont have IBIS as an argument for the EOS R to not have it... lol. Big cameras need less IBIS because of their weight and the way we use them (on big rigs). EOS R and competitors are small run and gun, IBIS makes MUCH more sense there. 

1

XT3 doesn't have IBIS. It's the smallest camera of the pack. Still got number 1 position in the ranking. Fact. 

It already sucks that you gotta go external to shoot log on the Z but it also breaks the AF?!! WTF..

That is super wack and really should be pointed out to potential buyers.

well the Canon, A73 & XT3 are indeed the cameras it is being pitted against in this roundout and arguably their internal AF would perform better than with the above convoluted solution (operator even states he wished he had an added monitor to pull focus so add that to the list). EOS R & GH5s flip out screens come in particularly handy for gimbal work.

IBIS certainly has its limits, lens IS, EIS or a gimbal are certainly valid if not better options.

All i was trying to say is that P4K (and BM cameras in general) need a lot of extras for solo work and that all adds up to the budget. Less so with current hybrids.

Also by the time you add a decent speed booster, follow focus, gimbal, evf & batteries.. you are way way over $2K for essentially a pimped out M4/3 video only camera. not trying to slam the P4K (any form of raw is a blessing) but in the end it may not be as cheap and easy a route as some may think..

18 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

The problem is that the limitations of this camera are not just RS and crop. Even in stills it's far behind Sony sensor. No IBIS is a deal breaker as well. 
Canon will soon release a pro level EOS R with no crop 4K and IBIS but it's gonna be 3.5K and at that time all FF cameras will do 4K60P 10 bit and canon will be far behind again. 
 

Well, there is always something better coming around the corner, I try and not obsess much over that or else you're just chasing the dream. As a working pro my only concern is what tool fits my needs now. I'm invested in a system, and i don't intend on switching everytime the competition drops a newer, better body. When Canon drops that pro body you're talking about well I'll upgrade to it, simple as that. 

Limitations, i try and work around them, every camera has its strengths & weaknesses. IBIS is neat, however, we got along fine before it and no cine cam even uses it to this day. I'd hardly call it a deal breaker even if its a nice convenience. Canon's smart EIS (using gyroscope & 2 way lens IS com data) is a workable alternative & might even prove to be better in some cases.

For stills,  i look at the system as a whole: lenses, color science, ergonomics, AF, flash options etc.. that is what is going to get me the picture I want, not a sensor/chart comparison. Yeah Sony sensors are the best, but I still prefer what Fuji & Nikon do with them.. YMMV.

EOS R certainly wins most hated camera of 2018 award!

Yet despite it's on paper limitations and for sure poor 4K RS performance, its a camera I very much enjoy shooting with.. and the perfect B-cam to a 5D/1DX/C100/C200.

Canon did get a few things right:  the only FF MILC with a flip out screen, the FF MILC with the highest bitrate ALL-I codec, the most reliable and smoothest AF in the game. Those 3 things alone should give it some points. The IQ as stated is indeed just cinematic. That word gets thrown around a lot but the reason it applies here is thanks to the thick codec, alongside 1:1 resolution and lack of digital sharpness on default in C-log, paired with the acclaimed Canon color science.

Then you have the smaller things: Smart EIS, 3 custom movie modes, custom ring lens control, MF bar (works for me personally), touch & drag AF, MF focus guide, AF override..etc

Finally when the Vari ND adapter will become available.. well that could just be a game changer.

Now i do understand, none of this makes up for the poor RS or severe crop factor. So yeah dog this camera all you want if those 2 are deal breakers to you.

Just wanted to add some perspective as one of the very few owners of this camera around here. And FWIW i do think Fuji, Nikon, BM & Sony have all kicked it out of the park much further than Canon and certainly deserve the praise. 

Happy NY everyone ?

9 minutes ago, frontfocus said:

I'm not seeing that. Again, the picture is captured and there is shake in it. The camera then corrects the image by manipulating it. 
With any hardware IS solution you try to compensate without manipulating image data. You can of course do electronic stabilization as addition, but as only form of stabilization it's insufficient. 

Again, by using 2-way communication data of the gyroscope and lens IS info, the in body EIS is capable of accurately compensating shake/movement instead of just guessing it through an algorithm in post warp stabilization.

2 minutes ago, liork said:

As you said, as long as the EIS has extra crop and softness, it cannot be "close or superior" to IBIS. On the day it will overcome these 2 problems, then I will prefer that.

 

I meant close or superior in terms of actual stabilization performance, not overall usability. I prefer IBIS too, especially for stills.

As explained above, EOS R's EIS communicates with the gyroscope as well as the lens IS to give you a result close if not superior to 5 axis IBIS.

Stabilization in post simply guesses camera movement which often induces artifacts due to misinterpretation, so no it's not the same.

That said EIS on EOS R does add a crop and softness.. to a camera already blamed for it's (4K) crop & softness.. so a perfect solution it is not.

I don't mind it that much and it works ok for me but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't rather have IBIS on board..

So what? EOS R shoots 4K.. just not FF 4K.  I always tend to shoot video in S35 mode anyways on my FF Sony cams.

Most pros have been shooting S35 for over a decade. They don't really care that much if 4K has a similar crop.

Many still shoot/deliver/broadcast/stream in FHD. That said they may not want to compromise with M43/APSC for their photography needs.

In that regard it's ok for them to have a hybrid camera that shoots 30MP FF stills and doubles as a FHD FF/ 4K crop sensor video B-cam.

The only serious flaw I see with EOS R is RS. YMMV.

Every cam has its limitations but yeah if it's a Canon it's gotta be a "bug" and if you enjoy the cam then you're either a "shill" or an apologist. SMH.

Sony cameras overheat, their codecs max out at 100mb with no Intra or 10-bit out options, zombie colors and have poor weather sealing. 

Nikon Z has no internal log & average to poor AF system. XT3 has no IBIS, no FF stills & poor battery life.

 GH5 poor low light, bad AF, small sensor..etc. 

No camera is perfect, pick your weapon(s) of choice and make the most out of it. 

@liork

EOS R is a hybrid camera and first & foremost a stills oriented one with a 30MP FF sensor. The body can accept EF & EF-S lenses (first canon dslr/hybrid to do so). It also shoots FF 1080p video & FF 4K Timelapses.

Only for 4K video does it apply a 1.74x crop which is close enough to Canon's 1.6x crop on its industry standard Super35 cine cameras.

With a native APS-C/M43 camera you cannot get native FF stills or video period.

7 hours ago, DBounce said:

Do you think the EOS R is just hype? Granted, I would not expect it to replace a 1DXMK2... they are different categories of cameras. Anyone suggesting otherwise is either disingenuous or plainly ignorant. But within its limitations the EOS R could be interesting? Honestly, the MJpeg codec that the 1DXMK2 utilizes is system intensive. So I wouldn’t hate having a C-cam with a modern codec. And a clean 10 bit output is welcomed. As some have pointed out, reusing lenses saves bulk and weight. As you only need to carry one set. So if one already owns Canon lenses... it starts to sound plausible... even logical.

While I do not expect flagship level AF, I do expect it to be quite good given the linage. Yes the crop, but my 1DXMK2 is cropped in video... and the C200 is Super35... which is a 1.5X crop. So is it such a deal breaker? Maybe this issue is overblown? Thoughts?

If i were you, a 1DX2 & C200 owner.. i'd definitely pick EOS R over Z6 as your mirrorless C-cam. No brainer even.

I think you will find this video test very relevant & informative:

Regarding AF i must agree with him that the transitions aren't as smooth as on C line (or 1DX2) but accuracy and low light AF performance is on par if not better.

IQ wise EOS R provides a very high bitrate ALL-I codec which results in a nice thick image consistent with 1DC/5D4/1DX2. Rolling Shutter is imo its biggest caveat.

You guys seem surprised a $6K flagship camera beast like 1DXII trumps base level mirrorless cams..?!

That said, EOS R does hold an advantage over it with the inclusion of peaking, focus guides, canon log, 10-bit out, EVF, MP4 codec, flip out screen & light weight.

Not bad for a third of the price if you ask me. Of course 1DX2 excels in other areas, but at this point I'd wait for the rumored Mark 3 for ultimate Canon DSLR.

If anything though this makes a strong case for Dual Pixel AF still holding the crown over the competition which some like to claim have "caught up".

@DBounce 

Z6 is surely one of the nicest featured FF mirrorless, but as a Canon shooter going that route would mean a whole new lens investment. And for an A/B cam setup, double the cumbersome in lens transport. It's just a lot easier having one lens bag, same log/color matrix profile & same great reliable AF system on both cams.

@Kisaha

I think as mercer said it's a question of perspective.. and needs. I understand that on some aspects Canon specs are disappointing, however I like to look at the glass half full and Dual Pixel AF & internal Raw are the important things that matter to me. Again if I want 10-bit 4:2:2 just slap on a recorder (on both C200/EOS R).

EOS R is like a mini C100/C200. Especially with the upcoming Vari-ND adapter. The internal ALL-I MP4 codec is actually more robust than on both C models. 

C100mkII can't shoot in 2K/4K(up to 60p), let alone Raw. Or 1080p at 120fps. Or has MF focus guides. The Dual Pixel is primitive compared to C200's implementation.

C200 sits just nicely in between C100mk2 & C300mk2 imo.

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

Obviously, I am not talking about everyone.

For my very low budgeted jobs (corporate, internet) almost any modern camera is perfectly fine. For such jobs usually there is very limited time for post anyway. A 9000€ camera is overkill, raw is not an option.

I wanted to love the C200, but I can't. Too many limitations in every possible way. Even the way you have to put everything together to go to work is worst than other cameras (including C100mkII). To put it as it is and ready to work you need a huge camera bag (in height), in EVA and other cameras there is a hot/cold shoe connection while Canon insists with extra external cables. It is a bit heavier than other competitors, and the touch screen de-stabilizes/moves the camera when on a tripod (while working, and if using the touch focus, is even worst than it sounds).

Also, for some reason, I have the impression that eats batteries more than other C cameras, but this is not based in scientific facts, I just have the impression that I change batteries more often per working day.

Great camera, but if I had the budget, professional speciality (my main budget goes to sound) and the will, I would choose between the Eva, Ursa mini pro, or stretch to the FS7mkII (it is only 1000€ more expensive than the C200 here).

Do you own the camera, by the way?

I regularly rent the cams you mention (especially FS7 & Ursa Mini) for jobs but ownership wise i'm on a EOS R + C100.

I was days away from buying C200 (even had a down payment) and postponed the purchase when the Canon mirrorless rumors heated up.

I can confidently say now I will definitely be upgrading to C200 (just waiting for the right time & deal).

BTW, here in EU they cost around 7000€, and you can find them for much less second hand when they pop up.

I plan on using the combo as such:

BTW, nothing wrong with going other routes (GH5+EVA1 / A73+FS5/FS7 / BMP4K+UMP) I'm just a sucker for Canon ergonomics, color science, lenses etc..

A growing number of pros (perhaps even the majority these days) are oblivious to broadcast standards as they shoot solely for web/digital platforms.

For those types of shooters, especially one man bands.. the C200 is a very compelling solution. AF is still in stone age on cine cams so that alone can make the difference.

Internal 8-bit codec will be fine for corporate interviews with controlled lighting & minor grading. Slap on / rent an atomos for the times you really need that 10-bit 2K DCI.

Then when time/budget allows it go RAW for that uncompromised IQ/DR. Or just switch over to RAW for that quick money shot. That's how i used to do it during 5D3 ML days.

To each his own but imo, internal Raw is nicer to have in a proper cine cam than 10-bit which is now available in a few hybrids cams including the $1500 Super35 sensor XT3.

Besides 8-bit Canon files are pretty robust color wise despite their limited codec specs.

Here is a long term C200 review that sums up nicely its strengths: