Django

No, they need that pro model to sell those pro lenses. The delay is just R&D / sensor tech related.

Canon admitted in their Q1 financial report released few days ago that EOS R was rushed to meet demand/competition.

it's $2,699 but still way overpriced compared to EF version or even the $1500 85mm 1.4 that has IS. 

yeah the optics are superior but who in their right mind would drop that kind of cash to put on a R/RP?! 

i'm sticking with EF for the conceivable future.. canon better drop that pro model pronto..

FWIW pretty much all classic American TV shows were shot on film during the 80s/90s. Problem is the footage back then was immediately re-scanned into NTSC (480p) for cheaper/faster digital editing, fx, scoring & network distribution. Today only major blockbuster shows (like Seinfeld etc) can afford the complex job of getting "remastered" to HD/UHD. 

@andrgl  I do own the 55" 4K OLED TV but I don't edit on a 4K/5K display for those very reasons you mention since i mostly shoot FHD.

that might change when i get a C200 though.

you can use EF-S lenses in any mode but it won't "reduce the crop". automatically jumps to 1.74x for video. RS stays about the same. Bummer on both, i know!

it's not so much that EOS R's 4K is soft but that other mirrorless 4K is supersampled & oversharpened. 

5 hours ago, kaylee said:

ive been looking at some eos r 1080p, its really nice. how do you like it?

like i said much better than 5D2/5D3. there is also a crop mode where the 1080p supersamples from 4K and gives an incredibly detailed image.

i have my 3 custom movie modes set to FF FHD / 4K / 120fps and i just switch between these 3 modes depending on the shot i need. i don't worry so much about resolution.

with EIS you can crop even further, this can turn a 35mm/50mm into a 70-85mm with almost macro abilities. lot's of creative fun!

This is exactly how i shoot with EOS R. Mostly FHD mixed with a few 4K close-up shots and 720p 120fps bursts.

If the editing is tight, nobody will notice the gap in resolution, even on a 4K 55" OLED TV.

Does that mean 720p = FHD = 4K ? of course not, but when mixed together if shot & edited smartly they fit fine and your brain sort of gets fooled into thinking its all 4K because of the high detail close up shots. So it's kind of a trick but hey whatever works..

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't think the argument ought to be 1080p versus 4K, it ought to be how sharp is the output of the final product. It is like the difference between a Canon C100 1080p, and say a Canon 5D mk II, or even a 80D. Heck the C100 looks like 4K because it is automatically downsampled from 4K. Night and day difference in 1080p. The A7s versus the A6300 is another good example.

Sharpness is what determines resolution nearly as much as the resolution its self. 

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Agreed. C100 has some of the sharpest detailed FHD (i've seen some tests where it even beats the C200's FHD by a margin) and EOS R with RF lenses also does very sharp FHD. Unlike the soft 1080p from 5D2/5D3 era.

yeah i'll still take a simple exp meter over having to shoot with this type of cluttered view..

can you at least toggle zebras/histogram via custom button (like the front FN ones by the grip)?

BRAW is open source, there is already a plug-in for native windows Premiere support: https://autokroma.com/BRAW_Studio/index.html

I gave Z6 a try yesterday, lovely ergonomics. But I didn't figure out an easy way to switch from AF-S to AF-C (miss the AF switch/button from Nikon DSLRs)?

More troublesome, without exposure meter in video, how are people shooting? just winging exposure from LCD view?!

Seems like an external monitor with exposure tools is a must, but then you got the HDMI lag... Nikon really needs to fix both those issues ASAP.

Yikes.. crippling audio?! that's certainly a new low.. 

Oh cmon, Panasonic removed a lot of video stuff to not take away from GH5 sales. They don't give you V-Log either, it's a paid option. 

People love to demonize Canon but none of these companies are church organizations..

6 hours ago, chadandreo said:

Because Canon continues to hoard their 4K non-crop and DPAF features for their cinema line at a time in which most other brands are offering it in all of their cameras. 

 

huh? what DPAF features are they holding back?? also, aside from the +$30K C700 all the EOS Cinema line has cropped sensors. 

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That 1.8x crop is a killer when you factor in that you have to change lenses to go between 1080p and 4K to get the same FOV. 

This is a tech limitation due to not being able to do full read-out of the 30.3MP sensor.

That is why the EOS RP 26MP 4K crop is lower (1.6x) and 20MP 1DX2 4K even better (1.3x).

This one hasn't got to do with camera segmentation. Canon isn't alone, just released S1 has a 1.5x 4K60p crop.

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

Does anybody think that Sony actually has the BALLS to make an 8bit A7S-III compete against all the other 10bit cameras on the market?

 

I'm hoping not but it certainly remains a possibility. They currently still have the weakest 8-bit 100mbps codec despite being on third generation.

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Does Sony think their 8bit "low light" performace is so good that people wont care that its 8 bit?

Could be. Sony manager recently admitted A7S is aimed at photographers first. 8 bit will do for video enthusiasts & YT community. For pro video they want you to step up to XDCAM.

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The Lumix S1 "IS" what we have been asking for with the A7S-III.

Not really. Nobody asked for rubbish DfD AF, 4K60p crop & a kilo weight size.

I expect A7S3 to have killer AF, 4K60p / 1080p 240fps no crop, ultra-low RS, electronic auto-ND, next-level low light & a surprise feature like 8K burst or something.

8 minutes ago, eleison said:

 

People use to think MP3 where not a serious threat to high quality wav, or hd audio, etc...  Nobody really talks about the latter anymore - even among enthusiasts.  MILC will be a serious threat to cine cams.  Sony is so big.  How is it that it hasn't destroyed blackmagic yet?  It's because there is a market for low cost cinema camera and sony does not care about.  A lot of people bought the a7iii because youtube people were using it for their channel.  Imagine when and if everyone of them started using blackmagic cameras.  Everything has gotten smaller and will continue to get smaller if it does it's intended job.

There are many other advantages to a cine cam than just codec color bit depth. Photographers have had RAW in entry-level cameras for a while now. RAW didn't kill off high-end still cams, just like 10-bit 4:2:2 video in a MILC won't kill off pro video cameras either. Like I said, other camera companies with no cine line to protect are doing it so Sony/Canon may as well follow.. oh and btw +24-bit WAV is still quite the standard in pro audio.

54 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

Its going to be fascinating to see what the XDCAM management team will "allow" the Alpha management team to give the new A7S-III. A Sony manager fir Russia was stating that he thinks the A7S-III wont have "deep color" as that is reserved for the XDCAM FS series only. I suspect he means 10bit.

I heard at NAB that Panasonic is very receptive to the S1 having 4k raw over HDMI and that it IS definetely comming to the S1 this year. Those same sources told me that Sony is not willing to go that far right now. Atomos is pressuring them but Sony is not buying into the raw idea for Alpha. (The next FS probably)

Will Alpha be allowed to have highly compressed 10bit internal recording or will it only be granted 10bit video HDMI? I would love to be a fly on the wall in these Alpha/XDCAM manager board room meetings!!

2019 is a massive political fight for managers inside Sony and Panasonic. Nikon?....no no, HDMI raw was an EASY choice!!!

Sony (and Canon) have got to change mindsets about this. Currently, if you want 10-bit 4K internal from them you have to shell out $7K minimum for an FS7 & $10K for a C300 II.

indeed it seems XDCAM/EOS C managers are the ones cock blocking 10-bit internal from MILC line. I don't understand why they are so afraid of mirrorless.

I seriously don't think MILCs are a serious threat to cine cams. There is room for both. And if they don't adapt, other players like Fuji, Nikon and Panasonic will..

I see it as a FF Stills / FHD camera with a bonus cropped 4K mode for extra reach on close-ups / money shots. 4K also works good on sticks as B-Cam to a C line cam.

That said others do use it to shoot only in 4K (DBounce) or only 1080p (Mattias Burling). YMMV. There are always other options if those compromises are deal breakers.

I don't know if the future is that grim. All I know is CaNikon & Panasonic arrived late at the table.. in a shrinking market.

15 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I watch the video comparing the two and he said the EOS R cropped 1.8  in 1080p - at the 09:49 mark.

You misunderstood him, he is talking then about the selectable crop mode in 1080p. A couple seconds earlier at around 9:20 he clearly speaks of the FF 1080p used by famous YouTubers. 

12 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Also - the Z6 has 24.5 MP for stills. The R has 30.3 and that's not even anything you'll notice at all. The R also crops in 1080P mode. 

 

That's incorrect, EOS R shoots FF in 1080p. For stills, the extra 25% MP increase is definitely appreciated. 30MP is a nice IQ/file size ratio imo.

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I would have loved to get the EOS R and tell me more about why the EOS R is better then the Z6, I'm open to as much info as possible. 

Internal C-Log, 400mbps ALL-I codec, Dual Pixel AF, Vari-ND adapter, video exposure meters, no HDMI lag, vertical battery grip, better native lens line-up...

11 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I know what they have the guidelines but you didn't answer the question about Atomos and it keeping meta data with the files. You made the statement that Netflix sys no external recorders and they don't say that. 

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You misread me. Never said Netflix don't accept recorder footage. Just that they filter out potential transcoders (among other things) by requiring cams that fit their minimum requirements.

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EVA seems to be the bottom of Panasonic cine line and the GH5 is not cine no matter what GH5 owners say.  

Lines are more blurry when you consider ecosystems. GH5/EVA1 and soon S1 are all broadcast ready which can suit certain types of shooters.

Besides GH5S shares same sensor as BMP4K which is clearly "cine" oriented.

Yeah but it became the industry standard for a reason. again the ecosystem. By the time FS7 was getting popular, most low to mid videographers had moved over to Sony Alpha mirrorless system. Same E-mount wether APS-C, FF or S35. Metabones/Adapters for every lens possible. Sony also came out with the cheaper FS5 and all that created strong incentive to rent/buy an FS7 when moving up. Very clever of Sony.

Canon however was very slow to adapt to the mirrorless game with ageing outdated DSLRs and especially 4K. They missed that boat with until recently only the C300 mk2 & 1DC as the cheapest 4K options which were astronomically expensive and exclusive to EF lenses.. They are back in the race now with EOS R & C200 providing a strong combo and upgrade path. a RF C100 mk3, pro EOS R & 8K C300 mk3 will possibly put them back on the map. Videographers will always have a soft spot for Canon CS and their glass despite recent disappointments..

Panasonic are trying to go after that market with GH5/S1/EVA1 ecosystem. Problem is those 3 cameras have different mounts & sensor sizes. It's a mess and not really taking off.. they alienated their own MFT user base by going EF mount on EVA1.. and now expensive L mount for S1. Folks that'll switch systems easily need a consistent solution for their lens collection.

BMD remains the only real pro budget cinema ecosystem alternative to ARRI/RED which is a different market then what the Japanese are going for.

34 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

You're speaking for Netflix now and no place does it say internal recording.  That means even if you use a Arri out to Atomos the footage is not valid for Netflix. 

I appreciate the response but it's you're opinion and not Netflix policy. 

2

Lol looks like you still didn't get it... I was attempting to explain to you why they have their strict camera policy.  Nevermind.

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Another one to add to the list then along with the A7IIIs, the Sharp 8K, Canon Pro Mirrorless, Nikon Pro Mirrorless and the Kodak Box Brownie 8K.

At this rate Tokyo 2020 is going to be four weeks of camera launches with the occasional athletics event thrown in.

It is certainly expected to be a major showcase of Japanese high-tech superiority, just like PyeongChang was last year for South Korea (most expensive Olympics ever).

Lot more at stake than gold medals  

34 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I'm not defending if the Z6 can be approved or not. Does the Atomos not give meta data that shows that files are 10 bit 4:22 X bitrate? That seems odd that the Atomos which we've used with the FS7, would not carry meta data with it's recorded footage. Is this the case? 

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It's easy to transcode files / fudge metadata. and yes people do it all the time to get around broadcast requirements. again the approved camera list ensures no funny business is going on.

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What's the lifespan of the FS7 before it's replaced?  

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 Does anyone know what cameras might be getting upgrades or new models in 2019?

.... timeframe seems to indicate somewhere before Tokyo 2020 Olympics.

You're not hearing me: there is no easy way AFAIK to determine if recorder footage is real 10-bit 4:2:2 X bitrate and not some other lower format transcode. 

Having a camera list with those internal requirements eliminates that doubt.

Time code was just an example. And even though the Z6 actually provides time code it won't make that list due to the above.

Z6 also has other big issues like the aforementioned HDMI record lag of 34ms / 9fps. It just isn't close to being there yet.

But don't let that discourage you. The camera doesn't make the filmmaker good or "Netflix" worthy.

FS7 or EVA1? Depends, i tend to look at cameras through an ecosystem eye. So like for me it would be C200/C300 mk2.

If you're starting fresh and none of that matters, well EVA1 for the IQ. FS7 for just about everything else! 

It goes without saying.. take a look, every one of the cameras listed can do those minimum specs internally and for good reason. 

If they just accepted a format (i.e. Atomos footage) it would be impossible for Netflix to control what is actually following the minimum specs and what is just transcoded footage. opens a whole can of QC worms. Hence the approved camera list.

Like i said there are other unlisted broadcast/production requirements that those approved cameras meet, such as timecode (which is why the C200 isn't listed).