Django

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

Does anybody think that Sony actually has the BALLS to make an 8bit A7S-III compete against all the other 10bit cameras on the market?

 

I'm hoping not but it certainly remains a possibility. They currently still have the weakest 8-bit 100mbps codec despite being on third generation.

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Does Sony think their 8bit "low light" performace is so good that people wont care that its 8 bit?

Could be. Sony manager recently admitted A7S is aimed at photographers first. 8 bit will do for video enthusiasts & YT community. For pro video they want you to step up to XDCAM.

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The Lumix S1 "IS" what we have been asking for with the A7S-III.

Not really. Nobody asked for rubbish DfD AF, 4K60p crop & a kilo weight size.

I expect A7S3 to have killer AF, 4K60p / 1080p 240fps no crop, ultra-low RS, electronic auto-ND, next-level low light & a surprise feature like 8K burst or something.

8 minutes ago, eleison said:

 

People use to think MP3 where not a serious threat to high quality wav, or hd audio, etc...  Nobody really talks about the latter anymore - even among enthusiasts.  MILC will be a serious threat to cine cams.  Sony is so big.  How is it that it hasn't destroyed blackmagic yet?  It's because there is a market for low cost cinema camera and sony does not care about.  A lot of people bought the a7iii because youtube people were using it for their channel.  Imagine when and if everyone of them started using blackmagic cameras.  Everything has gotten smaller and will continue to get smaller if it does it's intended job.

There are many other advantages to a cine cam than just codec color bit depth. Photographers have had RAW in entry-level cameras for a while now. RAW didn't kill off high-end still cams, just like 10-bit 4:2:2 video in a MILC won't kill off pro video cameras either. Like I said, other camera companies with no cine line to protect are doing it so Sony/Canon may as well follow.. oh and btw +24-bit WAV is still quite the standard in pro audio.

54 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

Its going to be fascinating to see what the XDCAM management team will "allow" the Alpha management team to give the new A7S-III. A Sony manager fir Russia was stating that he thinks the A7S-III wont have "deep color" as that is reserved for the XDCAM FS series only. I suspect he means 10bit.

I heard at NAB that Panasonic is very receptive to the S1 having 4k raw over HDMI and that it IS definetely comming to the S1 this year. Those same sources told me that Sony is not willing to go that far right now. Atomos is pressuring them but Sony is not buying into the raw idea for Alpha. (The next FS probably)

Will Alpha be allowed to have highly compressed 10bit internal recording or will it only be granted 10bit video HDMI? I would love to be a fly on the wall in these Alpha/XDCAM manager board room meetings!!

2019 is a massive political fight for managers inside Sony and Panasonic. Nikon?....no no, HDMI raw was an EASY choice!!!

Sony (and Canon) have got to change mindsets about this. Currently, if you want 10-bit 4K internal from them you have to shell out $7K minimum for an FS7 & $10K for a C300 II.

indeed it seems XDCAM/EOS C managers are the ones cock blocking 10-bit internal from MILC line. I don't understand why they are so afraid of mirrorless.

I seriously don't think MILCs are a serious threat to cine cams. There is room for both. And if they don't adapt, other players like Fuji, Nikon and Panasonic will..

I see it as a FF Stills / FHD camera with a bonus cropped 4K mode for extra reach on close-ups / money shots. 4K also works good on sticks as B-Cam to a C line cam.

That said others do use it to shoot only in 4K (DBounce) or only 1080p (Mattias Burling). YMMV. There are always other options if those compromises are deal breakers.

I don't know if the future is that grim. All I know is CaNikon & Panasonic arrived late at the table.. in a shrinking market.

15 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I watch the video comparing the two and he said the EOS R cropped 1.8  in 1080p - at the 09:49 mark.

You misunderstood him, he is talking then about the selectable crop mode in 1080p. A couple seconds earlier at around 9:20 he clearly speaks of the FF 1080p used by famous YouTubers. 

12 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Also - the Z6 has 24.5 MP for stills. The R has 30.3 and that's not even anything you'll notice at all. The R also crops in 1080P mode. 

 

That's incorrect, EOS R shoots FF in 1080p. For stills, the extra 25% MP increase is definitely appreciated. 30MP is a nice IQ/file size ratio imo.

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I would have loved to get the EOS R and tell me more about why the EOS R is better then the Z6, I'm open to as much info as possible. 

Internal C-Log, 400mbps ALL-I codec, Dual Pixel AF, Vari-ND adapter, video exposure meters, no HDMI lag, vertical battery grip, better native lens line-up...

11 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I know what they have the guidelines but you didn't answer the question about Atomos and it keeping meta data with the files. You made the statement that Netflix sys no external recorders and they don't say that. 

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You misread me. Never said Netflix don't accept recorder footage. Just that they filter out potential transcoders (among other things) by requiring cams that fit their minimum requirements.

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EVA seems to be the bottom of Panasonic cine line and the GH5 is not cine no matter what GH5 owners say.  

Lines are more blurry when you consider ecosystems. GH5/EVA1 and soon S1 are all broadcast ready which can suit certain types of shooters.

Besides GH5S shares same sensor as BMP4K which is clearly "cine" oriented.

Yeah but it became the industry standard for a reason. again the ecosystem. By the time FS7 was getting popular, most low to mid videographers had moved over to Sony Alpha mirrorless system. Same E-mount wether APS-C, FF or S35. Metabones/Adapters for every lens possible. Sony also came out with the cheaper FS5 and all that created strong incentive to rent/buy an FS7 when moving up. Very clever of Sony.

Canon however was very slow to adapt to the mirrorless game with ageing outdated DSLRs and especially 4K. They missed that boat with until recently only the C300 mk2 & 1DC as the cheapest 4K options which were astronomically expensive and exclusive to EF lenses.. They are back in the race now with EOS R & C200 providing a strong combo and upgrade path. a RF C100 mk3, pro EOS R & 8K C300 mk3 will possibly put them back on the map. Videographers will always have a soft spot for Canon CS and their glass despite recent disappointments..

Panasonic are trying to go after that market with GH5/S1/EVA1 ecosystem. Problem is those 3 cameras have different mounts & sensor sizes. It's a mess and not really taking off.. they alienated their own MFT user base by going EF mount on EVA1.. and now expensive L mount for S1. Folks that'll switch systems easily need a consistent solution for their lens collection.

BMD remains the only real pro budget cinema ecosystem alternative to ARRI/RED which is a different market then what the Japanese are going for.

34 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

You're speaking for Netflix now and no place does it say internal recording.  That means even if you use a Arri out to Atomos the footage is not valid for Netflix. 

I appreciate the response but it's you're opinion and not Netflix policy. 

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Lol looks like you still didn't get it... I was attempting to explain to you why they have their strict camera policy.  Nevermind.

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Another one to add to the list then along with the A7IIIs, the Sharp 8K, Canon Pro Mirrorless, Nikon Pro Mirrorless and the Kodak Box Brownie 8K.

At this rate Tokyo 2020 is going to be four weeks of camera launches with the occasional athletics event thrown in.

It is certainly expected to be a major showcase of Japanese high-tech superiority, just like PyeongChang was last year for South Korea (most expensive Olympics ever).

Lot more at stake than gold medals  

34 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I'm not defending if the Z6 can be approved or not. Does the Atomos not give meta data that shows that files are 10 bit 4:22 X bitrate? That seems odd that the Atomos which we've used with the FS7, would not carry meta data with it's recorded footage. Is this the case? 

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It's easy to transcode files / fudge metadata. and yes people do it all the time to get around broadcast requirements. again the approved camera list ensures no funny business is going on.

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What's the lifespan of the FS7 before it's replaced?  

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 Does anyone know what cameras might be getting upgrades or new models in 2019?

.... timeframe seems to indicate somewhere before Tokyo 2020 Olympics.

You're not hearing me: there is no easy way AFAIK to determine if recorder footage is real 10-bit 4:2:2 X bitrate and not some other lower format transcode. 

Having a camera list with those internal requirements eliminates that doubt.

Time code was just an example. And even though the Z6 actually provides time code it won't make that list due to the above.

Z6 also has other big issues like the aforementioned HDMI record lag of 34ms / 9fps. It just isn't close to being there yet.

But don't let that discourage you. The camera doesn't make the filmmaker good or "Netflix" worthy.

FS7 or EVA1? Depends, i tend to look at cameras through an ecosystem eye. So like for me it would be C200/C300 mk2.

If you're starting fresh and none of that matters, well EVA1 for the IQ. FS7 for just about everything else! 

It goes without saying.. take a look, every one of the cameras listed can do those minimum specs internally and for good reason. 

If they just accepted a format (i.e. Atomos footage) it would be impossible for Netflix to control what is actually following the minimum specs and what is just transcoded footage. opens a whole can of QC worms. Hence the approved camera list.

Like i said there are other unlisted broadcast/production requirements that those approved cameras meet, such as timecode (which is why the C200 isn't listed).

6 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Not a complaint just answered a future comment of yours about going with out of date out of spec gear. 

Here are the answers: Which camera to go with that meets Netflix standards? I would buy this camera and what is shot or budgeted doesn't matter in regards to what's recommended. I would like to know what everyone thinks is the best camera out side of Arri or RED. Lights and everything else would be rented. Part of making the best cine camera should also include being Netflix qualified. If it qualifies that means it can be rented out. Heck if the Z6 ups it's data rate it could be approved by Netflix. 

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Z6 will not be approved by Netflix simply by "upping it's data rate". Minimum requirements are 10-bit Log 240Mbps internal. 

But that isn't just it. There are a bunch of other practical specifications proper to cinema cameras that exclude consumer mirrorless cameras from the list. 

That said, the list is only really for Netflix Original content. Meaning your project has already been commissioned by Netflix, you then gotta follow those "rules".

There are exceptions though, Alexa Mini for example isn't on the list (as it is not true 4K sensor based) yet there is obviously Netflix Original material that was shot using it.

Nikon doesn't even have a cine cam so I don't even see the Z series being used as B or C cams. Netflix requirements being put aside.

As to answer your question: what is the best under $10K cine camera that meets Netflix standards: UMP 4.6K, C300 II, FS7,EVA1. 

EVA1 has the highest sensor out of those so perhaps indeed pulls ahead in the future-proof department. Camera has its quirks/cons though just like any other unit.

^ EOS-R has DPAF in 4K. I think you're confusing with M50.

11 hours ago, currensheldon said:

The crop in 60fps is a bummer, but if you want a full frame camera that shoots 60fps, this is your only option. Honestly, I think this camera packs in so much more quality and features than the Z6 and EOS R that the extra money is justified. 

 

1DX2 shoots 4K60p at 1.3x crop. So it isn't the only FF camera option. A7S3 will probably be first to do FF 4K60p no crop.

As for S1 packing "so much more features". I dunno. It doesn't even have Log unless you wait & pay for it. Limited codec options (no ALL-I). Weighs almost double. And of course DfD AF that hunts all over the place. That last one is a deal breaker for me personally.. what good is great IQ if you miss the shot? YMMV depending on shooting style..

Ergonomics is a personal thing. I always use the grip on EOS R and the handling becomes perfect (much less without). Love the flip out screen etc..

Haven't tried the S1 yet and for all I know it's excellent/better.

As for CS.. S1 does look great, closer to EVA1 than to GH5 imo (which had poor skin tones / magenta cast).

Honestly I'd maybe consider switching to S1 + EVA1 if it weren't for Canon's DPAF. It is tempting though.

Getting back to OP. As he doesn't need AF/4K and seems only to care about SOOC color, I'd go for the camera with best CS and highest FHD codec. That may still be EOS R?

2 hours ago, kaylee said:

aww, thank you so much @Django... i really appreciate it that you recognize what i was going for

but of course! what can i say tho...? i dunno where to start? ask me anything...!

your welcome, again nice work. basically just curious in what format it was shot and the grading level applied. i assume RAW ?

People like to throw the word organic around but this really captures it imo.

Almost makes me wanna repurchase a 5D3! 14-bit RAW FHD >>>>> 8-bit 4:2:0 4K.

RAW really lets you go hard on the grade without it looking fake/cartoonish. Worth the workflow effort for narrative.

Great execution as well.. especially considering limitations. Getting some dope eery Lynch vibes from it!

Care to share some more technical details about shooting/post? 

7 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

I didn’t say that, I only say Canon and Sony can get focus hunt/lost focus as well 

Right.. kinda like you don't wanna say the S1 is heavy because your friend can carry a Red One all day.

Anyways enjoy your new kit!  

12 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

I use them a lot as I work full time in video production, that speaking from my experience since I have huge sample size not just shooting once in a blue moon.

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So you are seriously claiming S1 continuous AF is on par with Canon/Sony?

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Obvious S1 is not targeted to you, there are many tools out there to suit your needs, I just buy whatever fits my need

 

No need to feel so defensive. I own various cams of various size/weights myself (mirrorless, DSLR, cinema). I use the right tool for the right job.

S1 is on the heavy side though, it is a fact and worth mentioning imo.

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

I got my fair share of miss focus and focus hunting with C200 and A7iii, they are not totally bullet proof! I guess it more about knowing the limit of the system and work smart around it.

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Cmon now,  continuous AF for video is clearly not the cameras strong point and isn't close to being in Canon league or even Sony I'm afraid.. 

1 hour ago, ntblowz said:

I done work using gimbal for 3-4hr straight which is more than 2kg load.  Not as long as my friend who steadicam Red One for whole day though he got support vest. 

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There will always be heavier cam rigs to compare with but fact does remain S1 is by far the heaviest FF MILC.. it's even a few grams heavier than a D850!

With the grip and extra batteries we're probably talking 1DX2/D5 territory. It's a valid factor to take under consideration imo. Lotta people go mirrorless to gain on weight.

That 4K60p is looking good. CS seems on par with EVA1. I like what I'm seeing. But hearing dude say "missed focus" 20 times in that wedding vid puts a big cringe on my face. What good is having superb "organic" imagery only to miss the shot? That said, stick some manual/cine glass on this cam and you maybe got yourself a mini EVA1..

Those numbers are facts, not sure how you can argue Nikon is similar or that GH5 is "suspect". Sounds like fanboy talk.

1 hour ago, Skip77 said:

Now the Z6 does 4K video and just like Canon does with the C200 then Z6 is packing as much data into each file and this is one reason Z6 video carries more detail and information. The Canon 1DX II is the same way. So to throw out all the comments like the Z6 is a turkey and last out of all the mirrorless cameras is not being honest. 

 

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You are spreading around a bunch of misinformation here:

The Z6 records UHD 4K at around 140Mbps in 8-bit 4:2:0.

C200 shoots either 8-bit UHD at 150Mbps or 12-bit RAW DCI 4K at 1Gbps.

1DX2 does 8-bit 4:2:2 DCI 4K at 500Mbps.

EOS R does 8-bit 4:2:0 UHD at up to 400Mbps

GH5 does 10-bit 4:2:2 DCI 4K at 400Mbps.

XT3 does 10-bit 4:2:0 DCI 4K at 400Mbps.

A73 does 8-bit 4:2:0 UHD at 100Mbps. (edited)

Sorry to say but Z6 is indeed at the bottom internal codec wise.