Django

Well we are on EOS HD, aren't we? ?

Don't take my word for it either.. here is what Andrew had to say about EOS R IQ:

Fantastic 4K image quality from a larger sensor than a GH5S. That sounds like an appealing camera, doesn’t it? Throw in the same cinematic mojo in 4K as the classic 1D C

Canon colour science – it is VERY film like. Still the best out of the box

The codec is actually surprisingly decent – ALL-I is pretty beefy (very high bitrates) and cinematic on this camera.

The 4K isn’t over-sharpened – pixel peep it and you’ll think it’s too soft (viewed in normal way, the image is naturally detailed)

__________________________________________

Those are the same exact reasons why IMO Canon has some of the most cinematic mojo in the hybrid camera game.

That's not to say you can't get cinematic IQ out of other cameras obviously .

Fuji are on their way now that they are doing high bitrate 10-bit ALL-I DCI 2K/4K F-LOG internally.

And Fuji has never even made a cine cam... same for Nikon if they don't screw up their RAW output. so screw the hollywood establishment.

BTW I'm not trying to be a Canon overlord. I got mad love for Fuji & Nikon ( I much prefer them to Canon as far as company philosophy etc)

XT2 is probably the best hybrid camera deal around. Especially since it got the 120fps FHD & internal F-Log update.

XH1's have also gone down a lot, and with IBIS + Eterna they are solid affordable options as well.

Yet i dunno why we are suddenly referencing cinema cameras or the entire history of film when clearly the subject comparison are hybrid mirrorless cameras of a sub $2500 range.

Canons 1:1 sampling, Clogs super low sharpening, high bitrate ALL-I codecs etc.. all help towards that elusive filmic look IMO.

That's not to say Z6 can't get there, especially if that RAW output does indeed bypass all the image processing, internal sharpening etc..

But as it currently stands, the supersampled & over-sharpened IQ doesn't output the most filmic imagery IMO. it doesn't help either you need a recorder just to get past baked picture profiles.

2 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

Funny thing about that photo is that NFL events are filmed with Sony Cameras, excluding the the sky-cams and pylon cameras for NFL.. 

The NFL Films guys who imo are probably the best Camera Operators in the world seem to usually run the Arri Amira

..yeah and the most popular NFL beverage is.... MILLER LIGHT!

..wait i was responding to Robert Collins's claim that "[Canon] certainly dont come close to being competitive from a stills perspective."

nobody ever mentioned broadcast TV cameras or NFL Films (who traditionally shot on 16mm film) cameras.

6 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

In sport photography there are really 2 brands only. Canon and Nikon, we discussed the subject to the death recently, and is a silly argument to bring every time that Canon under-delivers; this doesn't mean a lot for other professional segments and to amateur customers.

McLaren makes amazing F1 cars, don't see many around me.

It is just as silly to claim Canon isn't being competitive on the high-end every time Canon under-delivers on the low-end. Especially from a stills perspective.

Furthermore, the 1DX2 is used (and dominates)  a lot more pro segments than just sports photography. It's also a beast for video, unlike the D5 or even A9 (which can't do 4K60p).

I believe I already made all those points above, so thanks for not taking out of context or singling out responses to specific attacks..

36 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Yes well - I deliberately left it out because I dont know much about it. And clearly it dominates sports photography (although that has a lot to do with the lenses (and support)) and is likely to continue to do so.

However, if you take a look at the underlying sensor of the camera it is a long way from say an A7rii (similar vintage) in terms of underlying specs.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon--EOS-1D-X-Mark-II-versus-Sony-A7R-II-versus-Nikon-D810___1071_1035_963

And I rather guess that other Canon technology deficiencies are masked by a massive 1.5kg body and over US$6k of tech. 

I can guarantee you the pros that invest in a 1DX2 DGAF about DXO sensor ranking. A7R2 is a high MP landscape camera. Apple & oranges.

Canon's strength imo is in their top glass, ecosystem, ergonomics, color science, reliability etc.

They develop everything in-house which means a slower camera refresh rate than the competition (who all buy their sensors from sony and outsource various parts).

But 1DX2 is still the only FF camera that shoots DCI 4K60p (albeit at APS-H) and was the first hybrid to do no crop FF FHD 120fps (beating Sony to the punch).

Even if the Pro R model were to recycle 1DX2 sensor/specs it would still be a pretty solid release even for 2019 standards.

Canon however have heavily hinted towards a new sensor (as well as confirmed IBIS) so I expect the pro model to well surpass 1DX2..

EOS R / RP were clearly rushed and had to recycle 5D4/6D2 sensor tech. I expect Pro R model out by 2020 alongside 1DX3 just in time for Tokyo Olympics. 

53 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Personally, I simply dont believe that Canon can come out with a competitive high end product because its technology is so far behind (and falling further and further back.) The reason I say this is because Canon hasnt brought out a single competitive high end ILC in the last 5 years...

Take a look at their flagships

EOS-M5

7D mkii

5D mkiv (5DSR)

EOS-R

4

...1DX2? 

 RIO 2016:

Pyeongchang 2018:

Superbowl 2019:

2 hours ago, ntblowz said:

M50 with Speedbooster will bring the crop and extra stops back, and you get to keep 1080p 24 and 120p 720 and save few hundred dollars.

 

As I also use C200 so quite of few of them is APS-C len, it would be sucks to leave those nice APS-C lens just because some shitty dumb camera restrictions 

 

I was actually looking forward for RP but it just an even shitter version of  FF m50 in terms of video feature, I guess I just save myself $$$$.

6

You can shoot with your EF-S lenses on EOS RP in 4K 24p. The crop is 1.6x which equates to Canon's APS-C standard meaning full coverage of your lenses.

DPAF/CLog aside, EOS RP is actually a better 4K camera than EOS R / 5D4 thanks to the reduced crop (and I imagine RS).

There are plenty of irritating things about EOS RP, but crop factor isn't really one of them imo (especially if you compare to M50's whopping 2.56x 4K crop).

EOS RP is basically a decent FF stills, nice Super35 4K video hybrid with a YT/Vlog FHD mode. Kinda an odd mix, but not really that bad for $1300.

yeah... externally.. and then the AF goes haywire. 

Yeah this seems kinda pointless whereas I'd pick up a 4K Ninja Star in a heartbeat. With so many cameras outputting 10-bit now it makes more sense than ever.

Definitely a gap in the market for that.

20 hours ago, DBounce said:

I'm not saying it won't. I love to see the boundaries pushed. But there is more to the image than just color... motion cadence is perhaps even more important for video. It's hard to pin down. But having had both cameras side by side for two months and doing exhaustive test of both systems... I can tell you that the Canon just looked more cinematic. In both motion and imagery overall. Yes the Nikon was more detailed. Yes the Nikon had less noise at higher ISOs. But regardless of that, the output from the Canon just plain looked better. I hated parting with the NIkon Z6... because I knew it was better from a technology standpoint. But in the end I just had to accept the truth; the end results looked better from the Canon. While many complained that the Canon is soft (Imagine that... don't we always complain about over-sharpened images?), the Nikon was iMO a bit too sharp. And while I found it relatively easy to increase the sharpness of the Canon's image, I soon learned that decreasing sharpness without looking artificial proved much more challenging. And yes I turned down internal sharpening on the Nikon. There is no way I am aware of to match the organic feel of the Canon. 

6

Agreed. Z6 footage to me looks exactly like A73 but with Nikon color science. No surprise since they basically share the same sensor.

It has this kind of video look compared to Canon imo. And I'm not saying this as a Canon fanboy. I love Nikon, was with them from FM2 until D750.

But what kills me most on Z6/7 is no internal log & the broken AF when shooting log external.

I mean people dog Canon for not putting 4K DPAF inside a $1300 camera but Nikon gets away with broken AF when shooting log on their premium cams?

All this external stuff is cool but I need a cam to do what I need it to do internally first, external comes second.

I don't know much about landscape photography.. but logic would dictate a high MP camera, without an AA filter & max amount of DR would be ideal. 

Which is why I assume D810/D850/A7RIII & MF seem to be the popular choices.

Canon really only has the 5DSR (+50MP & no AA filter) but the DR on that sensor is old tech. 1DX2 kinda sounds like an odd choice for landscape tbh but what do i know..

Personally.. I shoot people (mostly) which is why Canon CS/Skintones & fast lenses with mojo is my priority.

Canon have also confirmed IBIS is on the way so you can add that to the Pro body specs. 

Also here is what Canon had to say yesterday about the upcoming Pro body:

DE: There's one more question to which I think I probably already know the answer. Do we know anything at all about when the pro EOS R body will arrive? Will it be in 2019 or 2020, or you can't even say which?

(...)

Canon: We know there's a lot of customers and there's strong demand for a pro body. We're aware of that. But at the same time, the expectations in terms of performance are really high as well, so we need time to make sure that we get everything right in the body.

WB: Mmm. That's very smart.

DE: Well I think the pro body will demand advances at the sensor level for very fast AF maybe. Sensors take a long time to design and bring to market.

Canon: Yes. You know well.

<laughter>

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2019/02/13/juicy-tidbits-on-canon-eos-rp-interview-q-and-a

The fact they say "we need time" makes me think later than sooner ETA but it does sound like a new (pro) sensor is being developed for it..

Reading between the lines my guess is this sensor will not be recycled from previous tech this time but will be based on the future 1DX3.

Personally, I'm hoping for that elusive global shutter sensor Canon patented a while back. Yeah wishful thinking I know..

My point is that you get 25fps in PAL but not 24fps in NTSC. Rather odd. Zone crippling?

 PAL movie settings:

4K (16:9) 3840 x 2160 (25, 23.98 fps) intra frame 7 
4K Time-lapse (16:9) 3840 x 2160 (29.97, 25 fps) All-I 
Full HD (16:9) 1920 x 1080 (59.94, 50, 29.97, 25 fps) intra frame, intra frame lite (29.97, 25 fps) 

NTSC movie settings:

4K 3840 x 2160: 23.98fps
Full HD 1920 x 1080: 59.94fps/29.97fps

HD 1280 x 720: 59.94fps/29.97fps

?

it does 25p in PAL mode...middle finger to US/Japan users?

Haha Canon, the masters of product segmentation! Seriously though who is really surprised?

Its a $1300 FF camera. No way was Canon going to cannibalize its EOS R / 5D4 so quickly.

I still think its a decent deal. I have a workaround for the 4K CDAF thing: shoot FHD using crop mode, you then get a very nice/detailed 4K downsampled IQ with DPAF.

edit 1: EF-S lens support is 4K only so looks like crop mode may be disabled in FHD! 

No 24p/25p is ridiculous though but I guess just shoot 30p and export on a 24/25p timeline?

edit 2: Just watched Gordon Laings review: it has 25p FHD.. is 30p only for NTSC??

Any definitive word on the crop?

@mercer you can always shoot in good old "prolost flat" (i have EOS R set to this on default) or EOSHD Clog.

59 minutes ago, Snowbro said:

I like Canon and all, but I really don't see why you would buy this small (cheap) camera over an a6500 for $300 less. If you are doing video, it is a dog in comparison. Just throw some fast inexpensive sigma glass on a sony & you'll have a great look. 120p 1080, 4k with log etc.; I bet the 'crop factor' will be similar between the cameras. 

For photos, who on earth wants that terrible 6d ii sensor. Color depth and DR is 10 years behind, wake up. 

DR on that sensor is weak for sure but DR isn't everything to everyone. If your shooting indoors or with flash that might not even be an issue.

For $1300 on a FF you can't really be too picky..

Color depth however is rated at 24.4 bits which is quite good and even slightly ahead of 1DX2 (24.1 bits).

As for the A6xxx comparisons, well the RS on those make it a no go imo. Hopefully RP is closer to 1DX2 than to M50 in that regard..

..red & blue valentine theme it is:

Yeah crop doesn't really have to do with processing power, more so that Canon does 1:1 4K readouts no?

Maybe some math expert can predict the crop now that we have final sensor specs? 

Damn, not only does it have 4K DPAF.. but it does so with continuous eye-AF in video. ..something EOS R can't even do (Canon better add that in a future update!)

No ALL-I codec, 10-bit out or Clog were to be expected.. but all in all not that much missing.

Pretty sweet deal for $1000 cheaper than EOS R released only 4 months ago.. 

Well EOS RP $1299 price just got confirmed. Looks like Canon is really looking to shake the FF market with this one!

edit: price includes grip + EF adapter as well!

2 hours ago, kaylee said:

i can appreciate that! but its like... adapters... etc. who has a 5d4, or 1dxii, or whatever, and a closet full of EF glass, whos going to run out and buy canons first "serious" mirrorless camera? i think its going to be a slow adoption rate lol, but we'll see

btw, how is that EVF? @Django?

4

EOS R isn't presented by Canon as a DSLR substitute but rather an addition. That said quite a few 5D/6D series users are switching over. 1DX2 users no way, B-cam at best.

The EVF? its a 3.69 million dot OLED.. best EVF I've ever used. No blackout either.

Touch & Drag focus point selection is also brilliant, especially for a lefty like me. Makes joystick FP selection feel antiquated.

Also love that all my FF Canon accessories (Speedlights etc) work seamlessly. Really missed solid flash performance on Fuji X series.

@leslie They are actively working on it. EOS R firmware update gave some hope but A1ex from ML posted this yesterday:

"The firmware update... unfortunately wasn't helpful. None of my previous tricks worked with it. I'm still wondering why some of my previous test FIRs resulted in green screen, but I'm now 100% sure we did not execute any code on the camera. The green screen was likely a bug in Canon's FIR loading routine, or something like that.

The good news -kitor identified two UART ports: one at 3.3V, used by the MPU (outputs the log from above) and another at 1.8V, likely used by the main CPU (same voltage level on DIGIC 6). The latter needs some level shifting, but - at least on previous models - it has everything we need to enable the boot flag and explore around.

Worst case - ML on EOS R may require some hardware hacking in order to install it (like in the above picture). No big deal, right? I mean, you need a lot more knowledge to be able to use it "

Magic Lantern Forum - EOS R

He actually linked to a post here by @kye ? 

Huh? EVF/size/weight/AF coverage/adapters/etc all concern still photography too bro.. they aren't video specific features such as Clog/10bit out/codecs..etc