Danyyyel

Just some advise as a Nikon shooter. Contrary to Sony, I start up with very good colours, so the need of another picture profile is not a priority for me unless I want more dynamic range or it really brings some big benefit. Until now we have Flat profile which is in some way quite capable because even if it not as flat as log profile it has still quite some more info at least in the shadows (You get quite some DR from it). Now with the launch of the z6-z7, we are getting the Nikon N-log +10 bit which I have zero knowledge how good it is. Fortunately  I already have an external recorder, so will be able to test it afterward when I get a z6.

Now again, as a Nikon video user, what the marketing material of the z-log is not very enticing (I think for a video newbee even less). The first thing is that the most important thing I wanted to see was human beings and skin tone, more so in harsh natural lights and not indoor lights, at least with sunlight I can guess how it is as the sun is a known factor. Again skin tone is vital for most who are not going to trade skin tone for DR.

Secondly what would make people move is a proper test like the one done with different camera but at least in this case between Flat and Zlog, even N-log would be good. Without this , how to convince Nikon users.

The last thing again, with example footage, is the robustest and gradability with Zlog. Then explaining the importance of having standard LOG profile that mimic for example Sony or Canon log, because then, you can use all those luts that have been developed already for those log profile. I am sure that not even 1% of Nikon would be video shooters, understand how practical it would be until all those luts are develop for N-log. Some sample files (with humans beings) showing how it grades (banding 8bit or even how it works in 10 bit external), use of some known Canon and Sony lut etc would make it much more appealing to Nikon users.

At least for me, that's what I feel as a Nikon shooter who might be interested in a Flat internal log type profile.

On 11/10/2018 at 1:03 AM, docmoore said:

I took a little time with the EOSHD Z-Log L this afternoon ... came up with the following.

If you would prefer it in another thread please move it ....

 

Looks good for the times I am out with the camera and do not want external recorder etc etc etc.

Bob

I think a LOG profile is an overkill to use on object or scenery that are in the shadows. The DR is not challenging at all and would need grading while a normal profile would already nail the shot.

It is true that sometimes I cannot understand the kind of gear some people have compared to their photography and videography they do. perhaps because I live in a second world country and cannot phantom how people can by for example as a Nikon user a z7 when you are not a pro. One thing I would advise some, take your money and buy lesser gear and use the rest to take some courses etc. No gear is going to make your photo or video better, we have reach the level that most of us are the limiting factor, but some know how will make a drastic difference.  

7 hours ago, Yurolov said:

lol fuji most def is not the closest. The whole image is shifting blue. The nikon is the closest. Fuji is probably last place. Just look at his shirt. 

I see the Fuji quite close to the Nikon, but that's not the point of this test.

10 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

He used auto white balance. Auto focus test is a bit silly as you can change how fast or slow they focus. 

The Canon and Sony look similar color wise. But this is a pretty straight forward safe lighting situation (single continuous light). 

The Fuji does look softer then the others. I have noticed Fuji skin usually looks softer. 

I kind of question his first test now, where the Canon look way softer than the others. In this test it is the Fuji which looks much softer than the rest. I just don't understand anymore. From his two test one thing I can conclude is that ISO discrepancies. Clearly the XT3 for example is darker by at least half a stop to the Nikon. In high Iso it would mean that Nikon 1600 should be tested with Fuji 2500 ISO.

2 minutes ago, androidlad said:

So

So, colour wise, instead of turning that guy into a zombie, Z7 whitewashed him this time...

I don't know exact skin tone colour of the man and the lighting, i would say the fuji must be the closest followed by the Nikon and then the Canon and Sony. Unless the light is golden hour in this case, if I was the guy I would immediately go to hospital to check if I any liver or bladder problem.  

So auto focus test from Max, for me z7 is best in this test. That's so great that Nikon who was dead last is at least for me, the best now. Again for the test, many strange thing, because it is the Sony and Canon who are the greenish skintone, he did use auto white balance this time. Another thing of note is it is the Fuji which looks super soft, much softer than the Canon.

42 minutes ago, BasiliskFilm said:

Have they started releasing them into the wild eventually?...

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/11/05/nikon-z6-coverage-starts-now.aspx/#more-129207

It seems yes, in the video below he has a sample video starting at ISO 1600 to 12 800 that you can download from a link below the video. I think it is over sharpened a bit, he himself says you should decrease sharpness because at default it is too high.

3 hours ago, Deadcode said:

I'm sure most of the Z7 customers are photographers who rarely record video. And they use factory default settings.

Those who want video oriented camera, will not buy Z7, nor EosR. The customers buy these cameras for photography.

And very few of the photographers are even heard about Davinci Resolve for example.

I was in several Sony Mirrorless/A7/a6xxx Facebook groups, and even after several years the "why my slog2 is so noisy" question is STILL on the table.

My point is: we, here on EosHD forums are only the small percentage of the users who actually want to examine 100% of the capabilities from these cameras. Others just use them out of box.

Many valid point, but he is not doing this test for them because anyway those photographers will buy the z7 anyway because of its photographic qualities and the video in full auto will be plenty enough for them. Where is test is valid, is for hybrid shooters or video shooters who wants to know if the first full frame camera with 4k log and 10 bit is good or not. Because just before that you would have to buy a Canon C700 for more than 30k to get at least 10 bit FF.

9 hours ago, Deadcode said:

He is showing every camera at their default settings.

So technically he is using the cameras just like 90% of the users do.

A lot of people complaining sony have the worst skintones. Because they dont know how to grade.

I can make the image from any camera to look good. It's just 30 sec work to fix the Z7 image in post.

And it's just few minutes work to match all of the cameras above to look the same. But we dont want that. We want to argue which one is better...

Whaaaaat, do you think that 90% of people buying a 3000+ usd camera use it at default setting. If it was a point and shoot or one of those cheap 500 usd camera, I would agree, but apart from being some rich guy just for bragging rights, most would configure their camera to some level.

On 11/2/2018 at 8:23 AM, wolf33d said:

Then people say Sony has zombie skin tones. Lol not bad Z7! 

On 11/2/2018 at 8:47 AM, thebrothersthre3 said:

Z7 looks bright but doesn't hold much detail. 

That's why I always take people like Max test with a pinch of salt. Imean if ever you have worked with a Nikon camera you know that this is not the kind of skin tone you would get. The second thing, I am not saying that the z7 can have more detail, but you have NR settings in the z7. Did he use it, or is it set up from standard to be high, I guess we will never know. The problem is that he has never worked with a Nikon camera and his first test was already revealing that because he could have easily decrease the sharpening in camera setting before concluding that it was oversharpenned. If you don't know a camera at least ask some people for help or spend a bit more time testing it, rather than being the first and getting clicks.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/10/teardown-of-the-nikon-z7-mirrorless-camera/

Best MILC construction.

"This is not marketing department weather resistance. This is engineering department weather resistance. Anything that can be sealed has been sealed. I’m impressed, and I will say for future cut-and-paste blurbs: this is as robustly weather sealed a camera as we’ve ever disassembled.

I don’t believe in weather resistance myself. I believe like life; water will find a way. I believe in plastic baggies and rubber bands. I am, however, a great believer in the idea that if you claim to do something, then damn well do it right. This is done right.

I’m impressed by the very solid construction of the chassis and IBIS unit. I’m impressed with the neat, modern engineering of the electrical connections. Yes, I’m aware that soldered wires carry electricity, but to me, there’s something reassuring about seeing neat, well thought out, 2018 level engineering.

I’m not here to tell you which camera is best to use or has the best performance. I’m just here to say this is a damn well-built camera, the best built mirrorless full-frame camera we’ve taken apart. (For the record, I haven’t torn down a Leica SL.)"

If people want to know will sell, just look at this, I am always baffled by that, but thats life, just watched 5 minutes with his photo with the guy selling incent and  was baffled by his photography

why this camera

On 10/25/2018 at 7:31 AM, wolf33d said:

This is the video I wanted @Andrew Reid to make. I have to say the Z7 is quite disappointing. I am also disappointed by XT3 120p cause it does not look really better than the Sony. 

The Canon I fully expected that. But man, what a disaster! This is so embarrassing for Canon. This company should go bankrupt. No one should pay that much for getting such disgusting results. And thanks god he did not do rolling shutter tests! 2.5K for worst rolling shutter, worst 4K, worst 1080p, worst slowmo, and insane crop? Thanks, but no thanks. This company is a joke. 

In what way does the z7 disappoint, perhaps if he did take a little time and test the camera a little bit more he would know that every camera does not have same basic settings. You have sharpness settings on every Nikon camera and it can be dialed down, same for DJI drone for example where the default setting is too high and people know they should just dial it down. For me getting such a detailed and moire/alias free image from a 45 megapixel sensor is extraordinary and a win for Nikon.

Now lets go the meat of that test, looking at a 400% enlargement  of a 4k image is like looking at a 100 - 200 inch screen from about 15 inch. It is completely unrealistic, just good for geeks and not shooters, thats why all these cameras are very good resolution wise. Even the Eos-R would pass a lot of people eye without a side by side. What will make a difference when those camera rez are good enough now is colour, DR, noise, motion cadence and rolling shutter, with Colour and DR being the most important in normal shooting condition.

Nice z7 user experience, photo and video.

11 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

N-log with +1 overexpose would be fair. 

Yep, you can clearly see in the images below how much darker the bulb, piano keys etc are on the z7 image (non corrected as in first picture) compared to the Sony.

One thing about sharpening though is on humans it is quite different from nature. You can apply much more to trees leaf etc than to a human face. Halos,edge sharpness are much more ugly on a face than on a branch or leaf. So it would be good to see these sharpening test on a human figure.

8 hours ago, Deadcode said:

Probably there IS a difference between N-Log and Flat, just like with the Sonys. Cine 4 has 2 stops narrower dynamic range compared to SLOG2

I think middle grey should be exposed to the same level. If we expose for the highlights it's much harder match the shots in post.

For sure about middle gray, but as in this test it wasn't at least the highlight can be use in reference because as said before the z7 10 bit log file shadaows are completely crushed. As I said before at least compared to the A73 the z7 is completely underexposed, you can clearly see it in the bulb or any other highlight like the piano keys. I finally dwas able to download the vimeo high bitrate one and tried to match highlight in light-room as it is only software I know which has ev slider (If someone knows how to do it in Davinci). As I presume before, it was clearly at least a stop more underexposed. I don't know what it would do for the shadows, how much would be able to recover but it won't be as crushed as now. I would hope Andres Reid would at least do this one for the test because their is no blame from me as it is a completely new camera and its optimum exposure/settings etc will take a little time.

8 hours ago, Deadcode said:

On the sidebyside picture there is the Nikon FLAT. Nikon N-Log +2EV is actually missing from your comparison! The original N-Log is underexposed, i am unable to recover anything from the dark areas. 

If the Nikon Flat is that clean compared to the other logs in the shadows, it corroborate some test that showed that it was very close to log. You could clearly underexpose by one stop to preserve the highlight and come very close to the other logs. For the Nikon Z7 log it is exact contrary, I have not been able to download the high bitrate vimeo file for now, but we can clearly see from the highlight in the bulb that is clearly underexposed by at least 1 stop compared to the other log file. It would have been very nice to match the highlight of at least the Sony to see how much detail is left in the shadows.

2 hours ago, BasiliskFilm said:

In these days when cameras are computers and lenses are computers... so much for an open standard like micro 4/3rd. Obsolescence is the flip side of progress. 
Hoping Nikon has had time to think a long time ahead on the Z mount, so we don't end up with too many compatibility issues too soon. One thing I can guess is that I won't be using any of these electronically controlled lenses in 40 years, unlike some of my AIS Nikkors.

Sincerely, just the autofocus of these new z lens will make me use them 90% of the time. Imagine being able to do manual focus a scene like second part of the video. I just did some shot of dancers and it was hell, I would do with such a video auto focus.

45 minutes ago, johnnyd said:

@androidlad where you getting this info? I also asked you TWICE for a source on your "leak" about a 4k 12-bit/2k raw canon rf mount camera on the eos r thread and you don't seem to have an answer. Seems like you're pulling this stuff out of your arse mate..

Still waiting for that super dumper Sony announcement, oh wait it was one week ago.

This looks exactly like those Sony rumors that where floating around which proved to be ludicrous. You have to be brain dead to think that Panasonic would release a FF camera that would shoot raw between 3-4K. People are starting to believe that these corporation are Santa, they would render all there other camera line obsolete just for fun.

Kai very positive review of the z7

Nice footage of N-log, I asked him for a clip and he has posted a link.

3 hours ago, docmoore said:

Questions on N Log recovery of highlights have been answered for me ...

https://vimeo.com/296302172

Password : daysend

Up for a short time.

Thanks the last test is the most telling as it is quite high dynamic range.

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Why the fuck are you still shooting 1080p in 2018 when you can edit 4K and export to 1080p?

That's what the network ask for  practicality and image quality. Many people don't gasp the amount of data which goes into a production. I am doing a reportage now which will be between 21-25 minutes. Just the interviews is between 2-2.5 hours, in total it might reach 5-6 hours of footage. No one wants to deal with 4x the data for just marginal gains.                                     I

Test between GH5S and Z7 autofocus. He also has some 10 bit Nlog to down load, but they are shit, no skin tone and nothing to see to challenge the DR.