Danyyyel

56 minutes ago, Eric Calabros said:

I still don't understand why a €4000 camera shouldn't have internal prores, beside this XAVCDEHFTYRXV nonsense. 

So why the room with a view or the that car that will drive you from A to B cost more that the other one who will do the same. It is simple, its called market differentiation. Who will buy there FX9 etc

People are just too enamored to specs, not so long ago 4k was the holly grail and now it must be 8K or 12k. Before it was hey you need 4k because you can reframe etc, now its, you need 12k to reframe 8k. In the end as the 10 year old Alexa 2.8k sensor has shown even as low as 2.8k is enough for the big screen because we human don't see more than that. I understand for some geek its like they need 150+ fps game to play, we humans have limits.

32 minutes ago, gatopardo said:

If they used the full bayer pixels for stills ou made some pixel shifting possible to increase resolution this would be close to perfect camera spec wise. Color and image feel is still to be seen. Very important also.

You mean for 0.1% of photography. I mean pixel shift is only good for still subject like architecture. This camera with its low megapixel is very good for video, but not photography. At least for professional use, it is hard to sell 12 megapixel in 2020.

23 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Jokes aside, 8K can be a perfect format to have both video and stills for large format printing as for instance, in the same take : -)

When will people stop with this silly thinking. I am a hybrid shooter, My camera always has 2 distinctive mode why, because the two don't use the same code. While for video you need motion blur so that your video don't look choppy and for stills you need highest shutter count to freeze motion. Secondly a 1 minutes video would be 1500 still frame and 1 hour would be 90 000 frames for 25 fps pal video. Lets say for a typical wedding they would get 3 hours of footage that would mean 270 000 frames. Typical events would be 1 hours. Go and browse thais when a typical wedding would be 100 times less., and see how many photographers are ready just to do that.

I

13 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Have you even watched the BM video? They are doing in sensor scaling of a 3x3 bayer array. That gives you 4:4:4 4K output from the sensor. The image is as nice or nicer than anything you can shoot with now.

You mean the one where everyone is in the shadows under a winter sun, yes we are in winter here in the southern hemisphere. Aslo that is super dark in the night seen. Yes I have seen those.

4 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

Theatrical releases don’t make up nearly the percentage of overall productions that it used to. Streaming platforms have quality thresholds that must be met and most productions move there just in case. 

On all non theatrical release I have been on it was all about Alexa's. They will just upscale it. Do you think netflix will refuse a very good story with good actors etc because it was shot in 2.8 k and now every camera shoots in 4k. 12k is another ball mark, even 8k is a waste, because as I said before, bigger the screen, the further people will watch it, unless they want to watch a film like watching a tennis match.

8 minutes ago, JordanWright said:

I think a lot of people have missed the point of this camera. It isn't just a 12K S35 camera, its also a 8K/6K/4K S35 and a 6K/4K s16 camera. It's been designed to shoot in all those formats without downsides. If you don't want 12K, don't shoot it, but it is there if you do want it. 

In raw?  how do you shoot lower resolution raw format. I saw same thing with Nikon Z6 raw output from a 6k sensor to a 4k one. They had to line skip and it introduced moire and aliasing. This was from 6 to 4k, now imagine from 12k to 4k?

4 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

You act like they have to shoot in 12K. 

I will wait for actual reviews, I think I have seen enough horror stories on reliability of the BM cameras. Sincerely I was going to buy a BMD just before Nikon announced the Z6. Its now in these thread that I saw all those stories. Because you know what, from every camera manufacturers I have seen all types of extraordinary claim. Even Nikon 4k Raw was a mystery to me from its 6 k sensor, until people found out it was line skipping and producing some moire and aliasing. Nothing that bad, more so for a 1700 usd camera, but for a 10K pro video camera, I would like to see it. We are talking 6 to 10x more processing power in the same body. Secondly I will have to believe that an APSC sensor with like 80 megapixel is going to any good, because it would be revolutionary, enough to destroy Sony Sensor business number one position.

14 hours ago, Inazuma said:

Said people before 1080 and then before 4k and then 8k and now 12k. 

That was before, everything has it's threshold, the 2.8k Alexa is still the No1 production camera, we are talking theatrical release. I mean the human being can resolve a certain amount and no one wants to sit 2 meters from a Cinema screen to look for pixel. the larger the screen, the further people will sit.

12 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

This is what RED should have been doing all along and I guess they started to with 4K ProRes proxies, either way...for me this announcement marks major gap in the armor for RED. Probably not "the end" as they have been silent for a while and probably have something big in the pipeline. The problem is that RED has been chasing the resolution dragon (thank you) almost exclusively. They haven't given us more FPS and they have actually taken functionality away while getting more expensive! The features of this camera are almost...silly. RED would charge $50,000 for a similar camera but an extra $10,000 would be needed for accessories. 

So yeah...this is a major splash on the high end. Enough to make a lot of RED guys switch? Who knows. Will it test their loyalty? Abso-freaking-lutely. 

That's a joke, what pro's will burden themselves on 12k.

6 minutes ago, gingercat said:

Tried 8 nodes with colour wheels, curves and power windows - still plays back perfectly!

WOW I would like to see that, I have a Rizen 7 3800 8 core 16 thread processor with a Radeon V (the second fastest GPU after Nvidia 2080TI) and .265 fuji XT3 with around 4 to six node on a 1080 timeline shutters. Did you do it typical style with many tracks etc like normal editing.

17 minutes ago, gingercat said:

Actually the 12K BRAW data rate is surprisingly low. In DaVinci Resolve 16.3 beta on a 2017 iMac it plays very smoothly. BRAW is a very efficient codec.

Does it if you have like 6 nodes with some power windows etc... H2.65 plays smoothly on my set up, start to add some nodes and you have to revert to proxy files. Now imagine the typical TV shows I have been working on with two 2.8k arri Alexa's, transitioning to that. So 2 12k camera with at least 3 backup. It would be like 3 to 4x what they already have even with the best estimates. I don't see this camera going to get any traction in film and TV shows. And I guess that most of that super color info BMD is talking about is going be loss with these compression anyway.

2 hours ago, gingercat said:

 

LOL, what is the price to pay for this footage 6 to 8x more data than 4K and 4x that of 6k. I mean we are supposed to be blown away.

17 hours ago, Super8 said:

If Drive-In Theaters make a comeback 12K down to 8K might be the future in theatrical release motion pictures.  

LOL, you mean when it is projected on the low quality outdoor screen full of pigeon shit....

17 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

ARRI Alexa LF users would disagree.

Working on film sets last year, both cameras had 3 people on them. The shooter or DP, a second assistant focus puller and his assistant. It was normal Alexa's.

On 7/12/2020 at 8:03 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thanks for the report. If that is truly the case (not doubting you), I would have looked harder at the Z6 + Ninja V combo. Most of the early tests I saw showed that it was about a stop and a half lower (just at 11 stops of DR). 

Are you using N-Log to text the Z6? Or RAW???

What test, the Nlog is rated at 12 stop, in photo raw the Nikon with Sony sensors are rated at 14.5+ stop. Albeit at 12 megapixel from dxolab. The thing is DR is calculated also with a level of noise. Some prefer the noise free which are about 12.5 stops. But I prefer with noise if else even film would be like 12 dr max. That is also why I think Nikon chose to put its Nlog less contrasty as to cut into the noise.

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

I hear you @Danyyyel and agree that the Z6s could be just about perfect. For my needs anyway and their lens line up is great; 20mm, 35mm and 85mm f1.8’s over 2 bodies... Nails it for me.

Nikon underwhelmed a bit when they launched their mirrorless but I agree in that they do seem underrated and overlooked.

I think there has been more than a bit of an element of going stir crazy these last 3-4 months which has given most of us too much time to overthink stuff in absence of doing.

I just wrote a list of what I need and am sticking to that and trying not to listen to the noise.

Yep, I dont know in what world we are living anymore. I mean I saw someone angry on this threat because Nikon is charging 200 usd to give you FF 4K RAW video !!!!!!!!!!! I mean you can get in 2019 a 4k RAW FF camera with excellent auto focus, IBIS, construction, ergonomic etc for 2500 including a Ninja V, that not only gives you the recording but a whole lot of shooting tools for exposure, color monitoring etc.  When I bought my z6, no one told me it would have face and eye detect autofocus, raw video etc... The firmware update they have given gives me big hope, all their lens are esign with video in mind (albeit not for manual use)  I didn't buy this camera... 

Now with the rumor of the S version which is so much closer to a 2.0 version. That doubling of processing power is exiting for even better focus and hopefully 10 bit log internal. Now with all the negative press of the Canon f5 f6 overheating, I am not sure they are going to risk it, because its an S update and I am not sure they will change the body a lot. 

7 minutes ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Well, if Nikon wants me to buy some heritage, just release a Z6 in a S3 2000 like body and some 2.8 compact lenses.

They tried it with the DF and it was a failure. I understand for some this is a hobby for me I have zero use of retro style camera. How do you hold this, on my z6 I can control shutter, aperture, ISO, video/photo trigger, AF tracking, changing auto focus mode, FX or DX mode, zoom in or out with only 3 finger and without leaving the viewfinder. My cousin has a XT3, my z6 kills it ergonomically. 

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

@Danyyyel I think S1H and S1 are used on many productions. You just don´t see these productions with Lumix tags. Professionals sometimes do not communicate their camera brands. Nothing shall distract from the message of their customers. GH5 the same. GH5 is still going strong. G100 or whatever it is called is a joke of course.

F3, I love you mentioning this beautiful letter- number- combo. 🙂

Its not because there are a thousand on production sets that its going to enough. What I meant is that 10s of thousands of Nikon users are shooting video more and more now. But also you also have all the pro photo shooters around the world that also have started shooting video and don't have to have 2 kind of bodies anymore. I am talking about my own experience here.

35 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

What Nikon lacks really is focus. Why do some of their bodies have full flip out screens, some have just vertical tilts and some tilt 180 degrees down? Why do they keep releasing APS-C bodies but only ever release zoom lenses for them? Why did they go mirrorless and create a large diameter mount but then still make primes that are big and expensive (and ugly)? Why are they making a lower-end Z5 when that market is already flooded and they still lack native lenses? 

Yep, their are some strategic errors they did and are supposed to correct in the S line which is closer to a 1.9 version. Double card slot for one and that thing of not putting a fully rotating back screen baffles me as they had one in the D5600. It is as if sometimes they want to be beaten. For the lens somehow I will cut them some slack because by the end of this month they will have released 16 lens, which are either very very good to exceptional. They have two pancake primes coming out in their timeline. I think the z5 is easy to make with more or less z6 part and they can tap into a lot more people for a full frame 1000 to 1200 camera which might be as compact as the z50.

What I am really sad is that people on site like here (because believe me a lot of people are using the Z for video in Nikon groups etc) don't  give a serious look at what Nikon is doing. As a d810, d750 to the D70 15 years ago user, the most enjoyable camera I have used are my 2 z6. As a hybrid shooter I can just flick a button and switch from video or photo mode.

Now for me the z6 could have been a little bigger, double card slot and 4k 60p and 10 bit and log internal. The double card slot and 4k 60p seems to be coming in a next update about September, october. I would really really like a 10 bit and internal log, it would be a dream come true, but at least if it is not possible with current tech (look at overheating in R5 R6) you have the possibility to use the Ninja V. I mean if a z6 with a Ninja V is too big for anyone, I am out of breath. I mean it is smaller than using an entry level camera like the Nikon D3500 and a flash. And if you do any video seriouly that need 10 bit and Log you will have to carry tripods or Ronin etc.

Now the good part, the z6 is the best experience shooting I have. I mean with the fantastic viewfinder, excellent IBIS, touch screen and best of all autofocus, I can shoot handheld like doing photos. For reportage style that I do for a well known worldwide broadcaster, it is a game changer. Doing B-rolls don't need to put on a tripod anymore. Except for very smooth pan or walking shot that I will use tripod, stabilizer or interview setup and higher end job. The auto-focus is super good and getting better with every extra firmware update. Last year when it was about buying a BM camera to compliment the z6 (60fps 4k and eventually raw) the auto-focus killed that though. This combined with slowmo 120fps at 1080p gives such good quality. That 120 fps is underrated, even if it 1080p it is still gorgeous. I would hope even a 4k 120 fps or even a crop or a 2,7k version, just to intercut it a bit closer to the 4k.

Now it terms of usability, you have 3 U setting button that I configured to 24, 60 and 120 fps with all corresponding shutter speed. I would have liked for them to have included banks that I could choose because I live in a Pal country but shoot for an American one and also for creative job shoot at 24 fps. There are two user configurable button in the front and have configured on to swith from FX to DX mode and the other for changing focus mode. You also have a very nice rear touch LCD with rapid menu that you can also configure to your need. In the end the z6 is the most versatile and ergonomic camera I have ever use. I can change aperture, shutter speed and ISO just with my thumb and upper finger.

Now there are things I have been experimenting lately with the the app, where I can sync timecode using the automatic time which uses gps etc, and rack focusing with it.

Its extraordinary how people are misinformed about Nikon. I mean is it perfect, no, but which 2k camera is. firstly about construction, the Z line construction is as good as it gets. Its not me or some anecdotal feeling but expert in camera construction. Many feel bigger is better, I myself find it to be a little small but in this world, doing a d850 size mirrorless is suicide. For me I have the smallrig cage permanently on now, it givesme a better overall grip and I prefer bigger cameras anyway, but I understand them with the Mirroless must be small Jihadist.  This tells you how good it is constructed, there was a pro wildlife photographer that told about his experience in the artic where the D850 stopped working at extreme temperatures while his Z still worked until very very low. 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/10/teardown-of-the-nikon-z7-mirrorless-camera/

On 7/8/2020 at 6:57 PM, rawshooter said:

IMHO you nailed it, @Andrew Reid - Nikon is going down the route of Olympus. Nobody is going to buy into the Z system except owners of Nikon SLR AF lenses, and that won't be enough to keep the company alive as a camera manufacturer. Nikon already makes more than 60% of its revenue with industrial and medical imaging. I wouldn't be surprised if they spin off the imaging division at some point, after which it will die sooner or later.

You should go to Nikon groups to see how many did come back, many from Sony. My guess Panasonic and then Sony will be the next to quite. These big corporation will quite as everyone can see that the Camera market is virtually dead. They have much bigger fries to cater too. For Panasonic it is battery and solar pannel, we are talking trillions of dollars expanding exponentially market. In 10 years the majority of car will be electric. For Sony it is playstation and sensor market for example. I saw some stats not so long ago and while Nikon camera division was like 35% of its revenue it was lower to 5% or Sony or Panasonic. While Nikon it is survival for them, I see easily a market about half of today's with only Canon and Nikon sharing it between them.

It would have been more honest to post numbers at least above 25C. Even id I live in a tropical island I don't think think this camera will work more than 10 -15 minutes in most production environment.

15 hours ago, Super8 said:

No interview is going to be stuck on the subject for 30 minutes straight.   You always have a second camera capturing a different angle.   The work around for the R5 recording limit is not that hard to do.

LOL, its a joke or what. How many have you done. These thing must be rolling continuously for 2 or even 3 camera setup. You never know about how your subject is going to react to the camera.