Danyyyel

So found a bunch of video in Italian that come from a blog or magazine. So one very good news, and one not so good. The good news is that the 120 fps looks good resolution wise and that slowmo video shows how good the video autofocus is. I mean at normal speed it would be impossible to see any miss. The bad news is rolling shutter, Dpreview already stated that the DX mode was good but full frame one a little bit less. More test would be good to judge it and cannot compare without side by side test. 

It is easy to understand why, many like me have been waiting for a hybrid camera to at least complement our existing Nikon cameras and lens. Video will be in big use on this camera and many pro might not use it as their primary camera , but secondary in the shoulder pack, so the second card slot issue won't be that bad even for critical work.

6 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I am slightly surprised at Nikon's approach to lens pricing. I do get the if Sony charges a premium for its mirrorless lenses why shouldnt Nikon? But the price of lenses for the FE mount is the achilles heal of the system and why it isnt all that popular even with all the stellar reviews. (and why I rarely ever recommend it even though I use it.)

I just think Nikon will find it difficult to get much traction amongst photographers. The budget conscious consumer is unlikely to spend US$4000 for a Z6, a zoom and a couple of primes when he can buy a D750 and similar lenses for US$2500. And are the pros going to really trade in a couple of G primes for US$200 each in order to buy two 1.8 primes for US$1400. The cost of witching to mirrorless looks very high.

Of course for video guys the Z system makes a lot more sense because it adds a lot more value and also video guys are used to paying eyewatering prices for equipment.

But I dont see Canon going down this route. The popularity of its mirrorless cameras is largely due to its pricing and particularly its pricing of lenses. You cant even buy an ef-m lens for over US$500.

I understand your point about lens pricing, I think with the bigger mount etc, these lens will prove to be superior to the original Nikon ones (and I guess most brands) and as such with the Sony lens already costing higher, it was easy to alight the Z ones to Sony's. But at least it seems that the adapter is working extremely well, so most will just upgrade the body for now and slowly buy into the new lens as time goes by. I also think that this is just the start of the new lineup. Apsc model at much lower price will come, there was a rumor on Nikonrumors that a Nikon d3400 successor would be coming, but it would be mirror less but with the Fmount. Which make sens in terms of cost of manufacturing and the company for now putting all its energy in Z lens line up.

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

I would surely think Nikon and Canon both have Moles in each other's company to sort of know what each other is doing. I can't imagine Canon would let Nikon have a better Video product. That would be embarrassing as hell.

 

They don't mind, they are by far number one camera maker, they will just put a product that is just good enough to protect their cine line.

32 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but Sony has had that thingy where you can use all the A camera lenses, and all the old Minolta lenses, and every odd ball manufacturer, including Sears that made lenses for Minolta cameras.

It not like Nikon has invented the wheel like everyone seems to think on here. Sure it is a nice product, but earth shaking new stuff, Nah. What 10 bit in a video camera, and it is not in, it's out, Come on. That is not new. Hell the cheap ass PK4 is going to beat that stat, and have Raw to boot..

I use a Ninja flame with my d750, what it brings is so much more than just a recorder, show me one dslr/milc that have has the functionality that an Atomos recorder brings you . The NinjaV will still be viable with its 60p 4k and even raw recording for at least two more generations of cameras, that I don't even think will have all its exposure tool, etc in any small MILC for the next 5 years.

If in 2018 the equivalence of a 70mm  Imax camera esthetics can be put in a small hand bag including the camera and a 5 inch size screen, I am baffled. 10 bit was the last limitation in the affordable cinema quality. We first got large sensor with the Canon 5d, then came resolution with 4k minus moire/aliasing, but what was missing was 10 bit. Those two bits add so much in terms of colour information and level of shade that have been plaguing dslr/milc image. You can have 8k, log etc but without those at least 2 bit it is useless. Those 10 bit will make log usable so that you can use the maximum of the DR of your camera and eliminate banding. If putting a screen that would fit in a big pocket is outrageous for you, so image quality is not important to you. And for what cost $ 2700!!!!!!! Much less that what the 5d use to cost... 10 years ago. Please rant a bit more... because for me, this is a pivotal point, where the camera has become good enough or exceed the capacities of the operator. If you can't do some serious/gorgeous imagery with this camera, it is not the camera the limiting factor, but you. The same as what happened in photography with the D800 camera, if you could not do good photography with it, it is your fault.

12 minutes ago, noone said:

I do expect the S lenses to be very good and the 50 1.8 in particular amongst the first group.       The Sony Zeiss 55 1.8 FE lens is a fantastic "normal" 1.8 lens at a very high price that most who have used it love (not all though).     The Sony does have some issues like LoCa but it still has left me not wanting any other normal lenses (and I have had a LOT including some quite nice ones).      This lens might not have LoCa issues.      I thought the Sony was good value and even at MSRP though I didn't pay anywhere near that and so that would mean this Nikon is POSSIBLY even a better deal/value.

You can not adapt the Sony to other mounts either.

Still the point remains, it is ONLY going to be Nikon F and Z lenses that can be used on these cameras and THAT is the issue for me (along with older Nikon lenses probably being of more use on the latest Sony's).

The Nikon Z system is the shortest flange in the industry, so you could adapt everything except perhaps the Sony ones. The difference is that it will have full functionality on a ton of Nikon and most third party fmount lens (the sigma art worked from fronos photo video). I think you will have third party adapter coming with at least screw mount motor for older nikon lens without motor. This will already get you more than 300 hundred (Just Nikon without counting other third party like Tamron, Sigma) lens.

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

A lens is not technically better because it covers a full frame sensor. The Voigtlander Nokton 25mm f/.95 would be better suited for filmmaking than these S line lenses - at least they’ve got smooth clickless aperture, smooth manual focus ring with hard stops, 270 degree focus throw, and rugged build quality for decades of worry-free use. Not to mention the Veydras... I don’t know what video you’re referring to, but if they’re claiming the S-line lenses are built with video in mind from the ground up, that is marketing BS.

Cinema lenses differ from photography lenses in more ways than just the lack of breathing: T stops for consistent exposure, large, easily read markings for aperture and distance scales (preferably engraved), uniform front diameter (for matte box) and filter threads, long focus throw, clickless aperture rings, consistent physical length and weight, geared iris and focus rings with industry standard 0.8 pitch, no protruding back or front element when zooming, easily serviceable, all-metal construction (usually), interchangeable mounts (sometimes), minimal sample variance, and on and on. Non-repeatable rack focus is a non-starter. The Rokinons (ranking #3 in digital cinema lenses at B&H) are probably the most affordable option for frame cinema cine glass, but unfortunately they aren’t available in Z mount. The S line lenses are not a replacement for mechanical cinema lenses.

Sorry it was another video where they talk about S lens etc

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

A lens is not technically better because it covers a full frame sensor. The Voigtlander Nokton 25mm f/.95 would be better suited for filmmaking than these S line lenses - at least they’ve got smooth clickless aperture, smooth manual focus ring with hard stops, 270 degree focus throw, and rugged build quality for decades of worry-free use. Not to mention the Veydras... I don’t know what video you’re referring to, but if they’re claiming the S-line lenses are built with video in mind from the ground up, that is marketing BS.

Cinema lenses differ from photography lenses in more ways than just the lack of breathing: T stops for consistent exposure, large, easily read markings for aperture and distance scales (preferably engraved), uniform front diameter (for matte box) and filter threads, long focus throw, clickless aperture rings, consistent physical length and weight, geared iris and focus rings, no protruding back or front element when zooming, easily serviceable, all-metal construction (usually), interchangeable mounts (sometimes) and on and on. Non-repeatable rack focus is a non-starter. The S line lenses are not a replacement for mechanical cinema lenses.

I completely approve what you said about the difference between Cine and photo lens but the thing is until now no one has introduced advance electronic tech in cinema lens. A stepless motor could be immensely more precise and smooth than a human hand. If you watched the video I posted above you could see that they have added a lot of video functionality to their lens and AF settings like speed, clickless aperture etc. For example the zoom or focus ring is programmable, in one case the music video guy talked about once you override the auto focus just by using the focus ring the peaking was automatically enable in the viewfinder. That's for me a wow feature for video and something completely new. It would at least be important to watch a video before calling BS and in general FF lens are better than apsc ones because they are meant to cover a wider area and again in general, that means less distortion and loss of sharpness as the center of the lens are always the sweet spot.

4 hours ago, jonpais said:

Oh boy!  A nonlinear AF photography lens that is every bit as good as a $4,500.00 cinema lens. That is awesome value! I'm also glad they were clever enough to make them incompatible with any other body, so nobody else in the world can enjoy such optical goodness. Thank you, Nikon!

In fact it is much better (technically) than most cinema lens because most of them are only APSC lens (35 mm cinema). What has happened since 2008 when 5D and Nikon D90 came with video and the 5d brought about the dslr large sensor camera revolution is mass production, mass market economies of scale entering the cinema market, which was very low volume high price niche market. They said in the video that all the Z lens are engineered from the groud up for video, thus with their stepless motor etc, are going to be silent, super smooth, no breathing etc. In fact it could be cinema lens coming to the 21st century. That is electronic lens as good if not better than manual cinema lens.

Very interesting for behind the scene experience in video, my surprise when I saw so much drone shot and thought why did they use so much drone shot in a video about Nikon. LOL. Overall colours etc seems very good. He talks a lot about stabilization in video which he says is very very good, he also says autofocus was very good even if he did not know too much what he was doing.

That's the final shot.

7 hours ago, wolf33d said:

DJI is impressing me a lot with cutting edge features and true innovation continuously. Sony and canikon don’t impress me. Especially Canikon who serves you the same conservative specs and features years after years. Let’s be honest, those « reinvented mirrorless » have nothing reinvented. 

I wished so much à Chinese and or US company would make consumer FF cameras, everything would be far different. 

When DJI releases an APSC cam it comes with RAW and Prores Raw. Not Sony 8bit XAVC or bullshit canon 800mbps aging codecs... 

well there is an American company called black magic and guess what? They give us 4K60p raw for less money. They are just too video Focused. I wished they made mirorless FF hybrids.

Sony, Nikon and surely Canon did or won't be reinventing something radically new from what is now a very mature system. Form the first days of MILC to now, the principle are the same, a sensor that sends data to an EVF and a storage medium. There have been inovation like IBIS and dual pixel and phase detect on sensor autofocus, but now it just about incremental change like button, size, af speed, a little more DR or Low light quality and that is it. And sincerely for me, if you can't do photos (as a Nikon user reference) from a 2008 Nikon D300-D3, or from a 2011 Nikon D800 with 36 megapixel and 14 stop of DR, you are not going to do anything better with new tech.

9 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

Waiting to see the one thing that hasn't been addressed, how good is the rolling shutter on the camera?

Thats what DP review had to say

On our pre-production Z 7, rolling shutter performance in the Super 35/DX crop region looks identical to what we saw on the D850 in both its full-frame and crop modes, which is impressive considering the Z 7 is oversampling. We generally find this level of rolling shutter isn't too bothersome, mainly posing problems in fast pans and the like. Once you switch the Z 7 into full-frame 4K mode, the rolling shutter effect is unfortunately magnified, and is more noticeable in casual shooting.

23 minutes ago, noone said:

I think it is very similar to the first and second gen Sony's.

They get a LOT more shots/video if used at once than the CIPA ratings indicate.        If you stop and start and shoot sporadically and don't recharge as many would do with a DSLR, then I would think the battery life WOULD be low.

I know that until it died, I was getting far more shots per charge with my A7s and that was using four year old batteries used daily.         I would use them and then charge when finished regardless of what was left and have a couple of spares handy if not always needed.          In order just to have something to shoot with, I now have my Dads 4/3 DSLR and the battery is used differently and not charged daily (no video though and I don't use it anywhere near as much).

 

That's very interesting, I have same problem in video with my Nikon. If I shoot one long shot , the battery stay for hours, but if as normal shooting, I start stop 10-30 sec shots very rapidly the battery drains. So you meant that if you charge your battery often (which was not my case still lately when I really started to do a lot of video) it will work better?

4 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

But the sensor is outputting high bit depth RAW data so it's heat production is a constant no matter if the final codec is 8bit 10bit.

Next comes the processor. It needs to process the RAW data. 

What takes more processing power, RAW to 10bit ProResLT or RAW to 8bit h264? 

Lastly, that data has to be pushed to the storage media of choice. 

We all know that QXD and even SD for that matter can easily handle 10bit ProRes without the interface getting all that hot. 

As I said, this is just theory, but Sony has just been able to put a FF camera that does not have overheating issues. I don't think they intentionally made there camera overheat just to show us that they were at there technological limit in terms of power/processing size. So I guess they and Nikon must be still very close to that limit. look at the M43 BMPCC 4k which needs active cooling to do prores 4k.

Just now, newfoundmass said:

It should be kind of a surprise given how short sighted it is to "protect" the mount. It's not like people are going to stop buying Nikon glass. And given that the lens mount was seemingly designed for compatibility/adaptability, it's kinda contradictory. 

Nikon in its history has always been keen in using/protecting its own lens because it depends a lot on its lens. It might be said that they are foremost an optic company before being and electronic one. Contrary to Sony who have partened left and right because it considers itself as a camera manufacturer. Another difference is that Sony desperately wanted to have lens for its system, while Nikon does not.

12 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

While this article is written by a Sony rumor site owner, there are interesting new facts. 

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-z7-z6-quirks-has-blackout-z7-does-5-5fps-no-lens-mount-sharing-to-third-parties/

It adds up quite a bit. 

What does it add, that Nikon wants to protect its lens mount, that's not a surprise. It will be to the Sigma of this world to reverse engineer there lens, they won't just give it up. Jared Polin tested its Sigma art on the Z7 with the Fmount adapter and it worked, at least that it.

27 minutes ago, Mokara said:

No it doesn't. Pixels are pixels, the processor doesn't care how big they are.

Pixel are Pixel but bigger the sensor bigger the heat, more processing it does the heat goes up. It is mitigated by better (generally smaller lithography packing more chip in smaller space ), That's what has driven the price performance of semi conductor in the last 50 years. Unfortunately sensor size are setm, so manufactueing process, material etc can be use but not as big a change as a node reduction. 2 bit more is 25% more data to move around and copy, perhaps they can and are just doing the planned obsolescence, or they just can't. 

31 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Read the thread properly. I stated 10bit vs 8bit and Danyyyel came back with the reply above stating 4k60p as a reply to my bit depth comment....which is not what I was referring to as you should be able to read. 

Again, read my comment. I still can't see where I mentioned 4K60p. 

OK, my bad, but just 1 year ago everyone was complaining about overheating Sony cameras. 2 bit more is 25% more data that has to be moved and recorded by the camera. So Sony just resolved the problem with the A73, so I am not sure that this tech is feasible just now. Have you seen the size of the other FF cameras that have 10 bit, I can tell you they don't fit in your hand. The last bit about DJI that you did not understand from my analogy. It has 1 much more smaller chip, second it has 4 propellers that not only cool it down but can even make it fly for 30 minutes. I am sure Nikon or Sony can cool there camera enough it they even had one of those propellers, but would you carry it and what about the sound.

1 minute ago, Tone1k said:

When it comes to storing video as 10bit or 8bit? Not really. 

 

Ohhh now deflecting, it was 60p 4k not 10bit or 8 bit. Even that might require not the sensor but expeed more data transfer, but not as much as 30p - 60p.

23 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Sensor size doesn't really come into the equation 

Whaaaaaaat, I won't be surprised if you tell me next the earth is flat. If you don't even understand that basic principle of heat and chip/sensor size, perhaps if Nikon further added four powerful propellers to the Z6 it might work. Hey look we have Nikon new Z6 version 2 with 4k 60p and they copied DJI and added four fans on it, now you can even fly it and we can go back to silent movies.

12 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said:

I read somewhere that you can power it using a power bank, so the 15min limit is moot. And with a power bank, overheating is far less likely, even in a small body like this.

The 15 minutes limit is a typo from Nikon USA. Thats Jared Polin experience with the Z7

One thing I did not mention is battery life. The battery read 44% at the end of our shooting which included 500 or so photos, setting up the menus as well as filming for close to 20 minutes in full frame 4k. Not sure if that is good or bad just yet but a grip is something I will def be using with two batteries.

6 hours ago, pszilard said:

I think I prefer the Fujifilm X-H1. Better size and price and video with 1 caveat: moire/staircasing. Wonder how the Nikon will perform in real life.

You have a full frame camera for $ 350 more and you talk about value to money? The Z6 will have full oversampling, which mean the whole 6k sensor is read to give a 4k image which I guess will have very low aliasing and moire.

1 hour ago, Mokara said:

I am looking at this:

 

Z7 footage starts just after about 6 minutes in. The camera is clearly having a tough time refocussing.

Look at all the other videos and Dpreview who spent time with the camera and not only 2 hours. There are setting when you can change the speed of focusing in video, you can even change it and save it so that the camera stick to it. 

1 hour ago, Young said:

Also from dpreview: ”The internal capture is 8-bit at up to 100Mbps.” It's a shame, but seeing the kind of magic they worked with the d750:s low bitrate it's probably usable.

They made an error, it is stated 144 mbs on Nikon website. The only strange thing is that they did not specify the 1080p bitrate, or I missed it.

56 minutes ago, Lenscamera said:

What is the actual battery life of this camera, any one knows? I just watched an event hosted by B&H and they are saying way more than the 330 shots. 

Thats what Jared Polin first had experience "One thing I did not mention is battery life. The battery read 44% at the end of our shooting which included 500 or so photos, setting up the menus as well as filming for close to 20 minutes in full frame 4k. Not sure if that is good or bad just yet but a grip is something I will def be using with two batteries."

That guy is a Moron, he has been dishing Nikon since day one in this thread. He said with absolute certainty that Nikon will never be able to produce a camera to compete with Sony Mirror Less. That was one month ago, having not seen anything, just his analysis. As we can see today he is completely wrong, they have at least matched the Sony third gen mirrotless, but in many ways outdone it. The Z6 kills the A73, better viewfinder, better LCD, 10 bit video, build quality etc. The only thing that is still contentious is the AF which DRreview who had some time with the Beta Z7 said was better than the Sony's. 

That's what Dpreview had to say "Autofocus in video is up there with the best. Tracking and refocusing on subjectives is intuitive and reliable... besting what Canon and Sony offer"

https://***URL removed***/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/6

And I am sure, he who has not used the camera will come to patronize us.

For DPreview review/preview for the camera and their first thorough preview of the camera.

"Autofocus in video is up there with the best. Tracking and refocusing on subjectives is intuitive and reliable... besting what Canon and Sony offer"

https://***URL removed***/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/6

5 hours ago, Mokara said:

Pretty unlikely that Sony will be using Nikon's processor. If they use the same processor for the A7SIII that they used in the A7III then it will not have 4K60p, but if they introduce a next gen processor then chances are it will.

AF performance looks pretty crappy based on the video that has appeared so far. Unless they don't have the cameras set up properly (entirely possible) from what I could tell the camera seems slow to find new focus and often is not focusing on the proper point.

I don't know what you saw but this

and this

Does not look crappy to me

You can also add this, which is beyond 99% of what I would call extreme 

3 hours ago, Tone1k said:

DJI can see the importance of 10bit internal recoding in a mid range drone. Why the hell are Sony and Nikon still doing 8bit internal? Massive fail... Especially on Nikon's parts. Move on!

Care to show me what FF camera they have that does 4k 60p internal please, I am curious to know.

Thats what Dpreview said in their video about autofocus in video from someone who questioned that they said AF was better than Sony, "Yes, video tracking AF is far more usable and accurate on the Z 7 than a Sony Alpha camera (where you have to first engage 'Center Lock-on AF', an old and unintuitive algorithm)."

Have people seen that because I did not see anyone mention it, you hve some kind of look up table that is applied to the LCD so that you can setup exposure while recordng in log.

Its 24-70mm 2.8. I almost fainted when I saw 27-70.

1 minute ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

It is written on the Nikon USA Website, 

Battery Life (shots per charge) 310  shots (CIPA) 
Movies:  Approx. 10-15 min of movie recording

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/mirrorless-cameras/z-6.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-TechSpecs

but on the Japanese website it says 85 min.  I trust more the Japanese site

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nikon-image.com%2Fproducts%2Fmirrorless%2Flineup%2Fz_6%2Fspec.html&edit-text=&act=url

There seems to be a lot of confusion in their marketing department, that's not the first bizarre info coming out of this launch.