New L-Mount Lumix (cinema?) Camera

[ita149]

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Who needs an S1H II when you have an S1 Mark ?E?E?E?E?E

E for electronic shutter, to save costs.

E for Exactly the same body as the cheapo camera from 2022 to save costs.

E for enamoured with accountancy.

E for enormous lack of creativity.

E for eeee dear.

E for End, as in the brand, and soon the entire system as well.

E for E-mount which has a 3 year old model that's twice as good.

E for erm, do I want to sign an NDA and go to some fancy Knightsbridge business lunch to see it.

N for no fucking thanks!

I was a long time Panasonic user who have bought most of their high end cameras and lenses, but not anymore.
I had some issues with their full frame lenses developing white dots inside the internal elements, including a 2500$ 50mm S Pro lens. This is something well documented everywhere from Facebook groups to Dpreview forums with many users having the same issue on the same lenses.

All what they was able to tell me is it was probably mold, implicitly saying it was caused by my fault because of bad storage or use.
Of course this is my fault, I have used a lot (really a lot) of lenses from Canon, Sony, Sigma, Tamron, Samsung, Olympus etc, I always stocked them in dry place and never used them in the rain. I just never seen anything like this.
I have even seen this issue out of the box on a new Lumix S 35mm f1.8 lens, someone on Dpreview also had its Lumix S 35mm lens exchanged because of the same issue, he should have returned the lens immediatly for a refund like I did. But yes it's probably my fault to have bought too much of their craps. 
It's also probably a coincidence if only their Lumix S lenses are affected ...

The only similar case I've seen was from a 50mm Sony FE Zeiss Planar which had a recall by Sony. And like on the Panasonic S lenses, it didn't looked like mold or fungus at all, just bad internal elements degrading over time and affecting contrast. I don't particularly like Sony either but at least they were more honest.

I have zero confidence in buying their products again.

[BTM_Pix]

8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

E for erm, do I want to sign an NDA and go to some fancy Knightsbridge business lunch to see it.

N for no fucking thanks!

One of the key parts of what makes an NDA enforceable in the UK is the consideration of a power imbalance between the parties.

”Parties should not attempt to take unfair advantage of any imbalance in power during the negotiation of an NDA”

I’d like to see the outcome of “$58Billion Revenue/230K Employees company Vs Blogger” in respect of trying to make that fine stick.

There is also a part in excluding its enforcement if you divulge the contents to law enforcement.

So if it was re-using the same S5ii body shell then you could legally have walked out of the restaurant and into the nearest police station and announcing to the duty officer “I would like to report a crime”.

[Simon Young]

Specifications on the S1iiE leaked:

https://latam.connect.panasonic.com/mx/es/productos/lumix/lumix-s1iie

Not very exciting apart from the Arri logC information. Between the lines this seems to carry a tweaked IMX410 once again. 

[zerocool22]

11 minutes ago, Simon Young said:

Specifications on the S1iiE leaked:

https://latam.connect.panasonic.com/mx/es/productos/lumix/lumix-s1iie

Not very exciting apart from the Arri logC information. Between the lines this seems to carry a tweaked IMX410 once again. 

Well most of us were just waiting on 50fps 4k full frame. I hope everything else improved as well. 

Like a better monitor, better colors etc. Prores raw internal is a bummer as resolve does not support it natively. 

[Simon Young]

5 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

Well most of us were just waiting on 50fps 4k full frame. I hope everything else improved as well. 

Like a better monitor, better colors etc. Prores raw internal is a bummer as resolve does not support it natively. 

Yes but that's is what the S1ii is supposed to deliver, the 50fps 4k. But it's a piece if shit if it suffers from the same moiré that plagues the Z6iii and the s5ii anyway. And supposedly for 3500 euros 🤣

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Davide DB said:

What we all loved about Panasonic was its ability to stand out from the rest. In a market completely dominated by the usual players, it was able to innovate. Now that drive has been completely lost.

That is where I am at with old Pannyboy.

Moved over to them from Fuji as I felt I wanted to be in full frame rather than APSC for both stills and video.

Initially continued with APSC video, albeit in L Mount flavour and in non-log before upping my game in that regard also.

I feel I have now reached 'peak set up' for my video needs with L Mount and just about there on my stills needs with a combo of Sony & Nikon.

I don't need Lumix/L Mount to develop any further.

I would have liked to have seen them do so, but the signs are now that they have stagnated. Big time.

The S9 was and is OK and works for my needs.

I could make a case for the S1Rii, but it would be a sideways move.

For video, lens-wise, I'm covered.

For stills though, I have one last fairly big decision to make. Well not so much make as I have already made it and that is re. a specific lens and when that happens, it also makes sense to go over whole hog, to Sony/e-Mount for both stills and video.

It could not work for me in the other direction ie, there are still big holes for me in the stills department with L Mount.

So sorry Lumix, the writing is on the wall. My wall at least. Nothing wrong with what you are currently providing for me, but I doubt very much whether I will be with you beyond October of this year. And that is on you.

[John Matthews]

27 minutes ago, Simon Young said:

Yes but that's is what the S1ii is supposed to deliver, the 50fps 4k. But it's a piece if shit if it suffers from the same moiré that plagues the Z6iii and the s5ii anyway. And supposedly for 3500 euros 🤣

All cameras will suffer from moiré in some contexts even with an OLPF. There are numerous examples of this. Also, the Z6iii had way bigger problems at launch (shadow-flicker gate). Higher megapixel cameras, in general, will have fewer problems with moiré in my opinion.

[eatstoomuchjam]

5 hours ago, ND64 said:

Why this €25k fine doesn't work in mainland China? 99% of all the leaks are from China, and mostly by distributors, not by an independent journalist or a reviewer who wants to find the bugs and send feedback to the engineering team before the release. Can't they distinguish between friend and foe? 

In many cases, I'm pretty sure that the leaks are actually part of the marketing strategy for the manufacturers.  They just want to be able to control how and when the leaks come out.  Look how the trickle of leaks has inspired discussion on this forum.

If Panasonic simply said they were releasing a camera on May 14 and then released it on that day with no leaks, it would be discussed here for maybe a week after (maybe less judging by the reactions above) and then a bit more when real people start receiving them.  Instead, it's discussed for more than 2 weeks.

The latam leak seems legit accidental, though - and I can't see it now.  Judging by the discussion around it, I don't think I care much about that.  Guessing it'll be a 6K camera that looks a lot like a camera (to judge by the leaked photos) and will have some fans and some detractors.  

[mtol]

I would tend to disagree with a lot of users here. The price seems outrageous for what you get, but I do think a more compact S1 style image with lower rolling shutter and a body recording 32bit audio would basically check all the boxes I could think of needing. I don't need to chase other features.

I do worry about over-sharpening though, as was the case with the s5II.

[ND64]

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

They just want to be able to control how and when the leaks come out.  Look how the trickle of leaks has inspired discussion on this forum

I don't know how forum discussions at speculation stage translates to more sales. I understand that it may generate some "oh maybe this is my dream camera" inner thoughts, but there will be also post nut clarity after real specs and performance revelation moment. I mean you need discussions AFTER the press release, not before. Because if the  new thing is not boring, people would discuss about it for months. 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If Panasonic simply said they were releasing a camera on May 14 and then released it on that day with no leaks, it would be discussed here for maybe a week after (maybe less judging by the reactions above) and then a bit more when real people start receiving them.  Instead, it's discussed for more than 2 weeks.

Agree and just another example of the utter muppetry that is Lumix’s ‘marketing’. 

[cosarth]

My S1 seeing the body of its successor:

[berkenboom]

I am more photo orientated, Why should i buy this if you can I buy a s5II for a lot less?

While nikon and sony, are showing off impressive glass like  28-70 f2, 50-150 f2 , a 200-600 telezoom, a 135mm f1.8, a 35mm f1.2  Best thing Panasonic can come up with is an 26mm pinhole, a 24-60 f2.8 zoom in the contested space with sigma zooms, a 28-200 that that nobody cares about,  at least the 18-40 was somewhat novel.

Its sigma that really keeps the L mount alive. Leica is like a venn diagramm meme with almost no overlap. it does it own thing and nobody else seems to care.

How many panny f1.4 primes do we have?  one!!
How many >300mm zooms does panny have? *cricket noises*
powerzooms: we lost the technology after our micro four thirds

Also from the makers of small and compact micro for thirds camera's, in their infinite wisdom they decided that the best way to upgrade the heavy,rugged S1, is a smaller camera with lightweight lenses!

 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, berkenboom said:

Its sigma that really keeps the L mount alive

That’s about the sum of it, at least regarding lenses.

The f1.8 primes are decent and the 50mm f1.4 apart from the weight is stellar, but otherwise…

[Andrew Reid]

9 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

So if it was re-using the same S5ii body shell then you could legally have walked out of the restaurant and into the nearest police station and announcing to the duty officer “I would like to report a crime”.

[Andrew Reid]

10 hours ago, Davide DB said:

I'm with Andrew.

If the leaked specifications are confirmed, I find these two cameras to be completely dull, boring, and uninspired.

I don't work in research and development, nor in the marketing department but I was a loyal customer and so I really don't understand the strategy (if there is a strategy).

You have 5% of the market and you present two absolutely anonymous cameras that don't stand out from the multitude of cameras sold by the market leaders. You can't afford 6 full-frame cameras.

What we all loved about Panasonic was its ability to stand out from the rest. In a market completely dominated by the usual players, it was able to innovate. Now that drive has been completely lost.

Precisely because you are constantly losing market share and are fading into oblivion, for me the motto applies: When in trouble, go big!

You have also absorbed what was once the professional division and you continue to present tired and worn-out concepts.

RIP Panasonic

I loved that about Panasonic as well, the ability to stand out from the others. They have completely lost the plot and are becoming a TEMU Sony.

The cost cutting is clear to see as well, so maybe they had the choice of leave the market or cut back.

Which is just business-speak for a slow death isn't it?

[eatstoomuchjam]

1 hour ago, ND64 said:

I don't know how forum discussions at speculation stage translates to more sales. I understand that it may generate some "oh maybe this is my dream camera" inner thoughts, but there will be also post nut clarity after real specs and performance revelation moment. I mean you need discussions AFTER the press release, not before. Because if the  new thing is not boring, people would discuss about it for months. 

I have no idea how marketing really works or what effective marketing looks like (sales, of course, but I have no insights there).  But in theory, leaks get people all psyched to watch the release video.  It gets them free airtime on dozens of podcasts, discussions on tons of message boards, etc.  The real problem comes when the hype has been cranked up to ... well, a solid 7.3 (it is Panasonic, after all) and the release is a 4.

If people are hoping that Panasonic is about to drop an S1H II and they come out with the S9, there's instead unhappiness and backlash and almost all of the release day coverage is people complaining about the camera.  And then, like the S9, people start to come around and say "Oh, that's actually a nice camera."  If Panasonic just teed up "we have a new ultra-small camera for creators coming," the day 1 reception might be delight instead of dismay!

[ArashM]

I'm saying this respectfully to everyone else's opinion here, but there is a lot of difference between spec and actual usage.

The S1Rii has been a dream so far in use, sure the body is not as elevated feeling as the OG, but in actual use it's probably one of my all time fav overall.

The sensor output is fantastic, See below, this was a random snap and just for fun I decided to see if it could be salvaged (excuse the messy house/ I have 2 little kids), Results are better than anything I've ever shot with except for maybe the GFX series, (but very close)

As well the sensor for my liking just sings with my vintage glass, the portrait is with a 58 Hellios from a commercial shoot.

 I know they may be lack lustre on the spec page, but in actual use, they just deliver.... hence I have more Lumix's in my bag along with a canon and fuji!

[MrSMW]

9 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If Panasonic just teed up "we have a new ultra-small camera for creators coming," the day 1 reception might be delight instead of dismay!

This.

Build hype by drip feeding interest over a period of time, each time highlighting strengths such as in this case, compact size.

By doing this, you prevent unrealistic or totally wrong expectations regarding what is being released.

And then, don’t release it with an f8 lens and expect anyone but paid shills to rejoice because you are only kidding yourself and allowing your already shaky reputation to plummet.

5 hours ago, ArashM said:

The S1Rii has been a dream so far in use, sure the body is not as elevated feeling as the OG, but in actual use it's probably one of my all time fav overall

I can imagine and think a lot of the criticism of this camera is unwarranted and it is being somewhat underrated.

I think this is due to a couple of reasons.

1. As above, Lumix are terrible regarding marketing and managing expectations. It’s as if they don’t pay any attention or care about their customers and so no matter how good one of their products is, they are already on the back foot before it’s even unveiled. They need to address this. Unless it’s already too late.

2. It wasn’t a successor to the S1H. Here at least, - I’m not so sure what the wider world wanted but I’ve read a pretty overwhelming wish in a number of places for an ‘S2H’ above anything else.

3. I do think they got the naming wrong and therefore the expectation of this all wrong and it is an S5ii on steroids rather than a successor to the S1R. The S1 line was a bigger and better built ‘pro’ line of cameras. The S5 line is less than that. Don’t pretend something is other than what it is because people are not stupid and you will just piss them off and alienate them otherwise.

4. It is a very conservative design.

As I have said before and stand by the sentiment and that is, I would buy this camera for what it is and what it can do, despite the furore and the fact that I don’t think it’s a true successor to the OG S1R.

The only reason I have not and am unlikely ever to do so is because I already have something I consider at least equal, if not slightly better (Sony A7RV) for my needs and the lens options are in a whole other league.

But I always come back to the same thing and that is Lumix’s managing and marketing just comes across to me as nieve at best, willfully destructive at worst. It’s like they are hell bent on reducing their 5% market share and that makes no sense.

[newfoundmass]

I see so much negativity towards Lumix right now, but the S5ii X is my favorite camera I've ever used despite my criticisms of it, I was very impressed with the S1Rii when I used it for a day, and I think the S9 is a very compelling option especially if Lumix creates smaller lenses like they've said. 

I've even seen more YouTubers switching to Lumix cameras; while that isn't important to me, it's a sign that they are making some headway.

I'm not saying people's criticisms aren't valid. If they aren't the right tool for you then they aren't the right tool, but people are writing off cameras based on specs instead of actually using them. 

Maybe these S1 successors will suck. It's very possible. But as of now, no one who has actually used them has said anything, nor have they made their way into the paying public's hands who can give an unbiased review.