Sony A9III with Global Shutter

[JulioD]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:55 AM, ac6000cw said:

 

Film projectors have basically the same mechanism, except that usually the shutter operates at twice the rate to create 48 Hz flicker which is much less noticeable/annoying to viewers than 24Hz.

Most cinema film projectors are three bladed so 72Hz actually.  Also the sweep is not only short but ALL of the frame is being exposed for almost all of the same time interval.  In a rolling shutter CMOS sensor they are line by line so there is a TEMPORAL or time offset from the top of the frame to the bottom.  That doens’t happen on a film camera even though the shutter is “rolling” across the image.

So it’s a confusion of terminology. The shutter in a film camera also appears to ROLL across the frame but what’s happening at an exposure level is GLOBAL whereas on a CMOS rolling shutter sensor the exposure is line by line within the exposure interval.

[Kino]

Sony itself doesn't believe in the A9III as a video camera. BTS of "Light Speed" promo piece shows Venice 2 and Burano were used for most shots, including all the really impressive ones:

[kye]

1 hour ago, Kino said:

Sony itself doesn't believe in the A9III as a video camera. BTS of "Light Speed" promo piece shows Venice 2 and Burano were used for most shots, including all the really impressive ones:

Maybe they're thinking of it like it's a great B or C camera on Venice / Burano shoots?  If so, having a demo video with A9iii shots mixed in would make sense.

The "lesser" folks who aren't shooting on Venice / Burano are more than capable of convincing themselves that "if it's good enough for them as a C-cam then it's an excellent choice as my A-cam!!"

[Kino]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Maybe they're thinking of it like it's a great B or C camera on Venice / Burano shoots?  If so, having a demo video with A9iii shots mixed in would make sense.

The "lesser" folks who aren't shooting on Venice / Burano are more than capable of convincing themselves that "if it's good enough for them as a C-cam then it's an excellent choice as my A-cam!!"

It's more that I'm disappointed that Sony didn't shoot the video with the A9III exclusively, as they did with the Sony A1 promos.

Based on other footage I've seen from the camera, I think the A9III is fully capable. There is even an unsubstantiated but plausible rumor from a Chinese website that the exact same A9III sensor will feature in the FX9II with 6K recording:

https://m-weibo-cn.translate.goog/u/2424567755?jumpfrom=weibocom%2Fu%2F2424567755%3Fjumpfrom%3Dweibocom&_x_tr_hist=true&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp#&gid=1&pid=1

[kye]

22 minutes ago, Kino said:

It's more that I'm disappointed that Sony didn't shoot the video with the A9III exclusively, as they did with the Sony A1 promos.

Based on other footage I've seen from the camera, I think the A9III is fully capable. There is even an unsubstantiated but plausible rumor from a Chinese website that the exact same A9III sensor will feature in the FX9II with 6K recording:

https://m-weibo-cn.translate.goog/u/2424567755?jumpfrom=weibocom%2Fu%2F2424567755%3Fjumpfrom%3Dweibocom&_x_tr_hist=true&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp#&gid=1&pid=1

I'd assume there will be a bunch of sample footage available in due course..  both nicely shot stuff from the brand ambassadors as well as stuff shot by the mere mortals who don't have a $2000 per-day film set to point the thing at.

The way I view cameras is this:

1. Under ideal conditions, the pros will show you the potential - the most that the camera is capable of
2. Under real-world conditions, the rest of the shooters will show you what is possible with a range of scenarios and levels of skill

The ideal results may be extremely difficult to re-create, or may be very robust and very easy to recreate - seeing what the camera does under ideal conditions does not tell you this.

The rest of the shooters will give you a sense of how well the camera operates under real-world conditions and when there is not an entire production team behind the project.  The mix of good results vs awful results will give you a sense of how easy it is to work with, unfortunately, this can be a reflection of how good the camera is, or the level of skill of the majority of shooters - not every camera will be used by people with the same distribution of skill levels.  

My recommendation is to have a few reviewers / shooters who you have followed for a time and where they have similar shooting circumstances and similar skill-levels as you do, and see what they are able to do with it, and how that rates against the other equipment they have used.

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, kye said:

My recommendation is to have a few reviewers / shooters who you have followed for a time and where they have similar shooting circumstances and similar skill-levels as you do, and see what they are able to do with it, and how that rates against the other equipment they have used.

Ditto. The source as with any/all info is key, not just ‘some YouTube channel’ of which there are several million.

And especially if it’s someone sat at their desk with purple backlighting, baseball cap on backwards, doesn’t have, never has had, nor never will have, said piece of kit, yet has an ‘informed’ opinion.

I prefer the freelancers over the brand ambassadors also, for obvious reasons.

[Eric Calabros]

14 hours ago, Kino said:

It's more that I'm disappointed that Sony didn't shoot the video with the A9III exclusively, as they did with the Sony A1 promos.

How they're supposed to shoot a PR video with a camera that is not in production yet? 

[Kino]

2 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

How they're supposed to shoot a PR video with a camera that is not in production yet? 

Camera manufacturers do that all the time. It is common practice. In the case of the Sony A1, its promos came out in January 2021, well before the camera was in production or released to the public, which was March 2021:

The Canon hybrid releases follow the same pattern. The flagship 1DX III promo video was shot on that camera and posted on its announcement day January 6, 2020, well before it was released in mid-February 2020.

 

[padam]

FX9II coming in early 2024.

Rumoured specs say global shutter, native ISO of 2000 & 6400 in S-Log3, seems in line with CVP's A9III tests.
If I read it right, oversampled 4k120p in FF, S35 crop can also do oversampled FHD240p as well.
Most interestingly, dynamic range is said to be maintained at 15+ stops.

Maybe the A9III DR isn't nearly as bad as some preliminary thoughts make it out to be, but it's annoying that they don't say anything about it.

[Kino]

11 hours ago, padam said:

FX9II coming in early 2024.

Rumoured specs say global shutter, native ISO of 2000 & 6400 in S-Log3, seems in line with CVP's A9III tests.
If I read it right, oversampled 4k120p in FF, S35 crop can also do oversampled FHD240p as well.
Most interestingly, dynamic range is said to be maintained at 15+ stops.

Maybe the A9III DR isn't nearly as bad as some preliminary thoughts make it out to be, but it's annoying that they don't say anything about it.

This is from the Chinese website I posted above, but it could be fake. First of all, it was posted a few days after this review from CVP and seems to lift most of the above specs from the section on "future cameras":

It is very unlikely that Sony would release the A9III and FX9II, featuring the same sensor, within such a close timeframe. The A1 and Venice 2, which share a similar (but different) 8.6K sensor, were released one year apart. Moreover, while the A9III is a competent hybrid camera, the sensor is not designed for high dynamic range and would not be able to achieve 15+ stops of DR in video. It would be a downgrade from the current FX9, which has exceptional DR and ISO performance. Although Sony featured a global shutter on the F55 and F65, its newer cinema cameras lack this feature. I don't see them putting it back anytime soon, as it is too much of a compromise for overall image quality. Either the FX9II will get the IMX610 from the A1 or it will get some other 6K or 8K sensor that we don't know about.

[Davide DB]

On 11/7/2023 at 7:16 PM, Eric Calabros said:

Famous Sony footnotes kicks again:

Sync speed with "External" flash is 1/500. With base ISO of 250, its the same as 1/200 with ISO 100.

Where did you get this info?

This test shows it sync at any speed:

https://www.cameralabs.com/sony-a9-iii-review/#:~:text=While most modern cameras have,shutter speed of 1%2F80000.

 

[Eric Calabros]

12 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Where did you get this info?

This test shows it sync at any speed:

https://www.cameralabs.com/sony-a9-iii-review/#:~:text=While most modern cameras have,shutter speed of 1%2F80000.

 

Its flash on hot shoe. Using any wireless system limits the speed to 1/500s.

[ntblowz]

10 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Its flash on hot shoe. Using any wireless system limits the speed to 1/500s.

oh that kinda stinks, wireless system really need that high shutter in day light. Who cares about on camera flash ugh.

[gt3rs]

Also, most flashes at full speed are rather slow so funny enough buying a A9 III for overpowering the sun with its base iso 250 would not help that much. You lower flash output to sync faster you gain not that much. Maybe more flashes will optimize for shorter duration something that there was no need until GS.

[Eric Calabros]

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

Maybe more flashes will optimize for shorter duration something that there was no need until GS.

There are some physics involved about how shorter it can be. Most flash brands don't even report t0.1 number in their spec sheet, they know it doesn't look good. 

[hoodlum]

It looks like Sony has significantly cleaned up their video noise quality.  I do wonder if this can be applied to other non-global shutter sensors as well.

https://www.cined.com/sony-alpha-9-iii-lab-test-dynamic-range-and-latitude/

 

Quote

Dynamic range using our Xyla21 chart and IMATEST analysis is average when compared to other full-frame consumer cameras. But as is so often the case, IMATEST results are only one piece of the puzzle looking at the dynamic range of a camera. It basically gives a feel for how noisy images are at the various Xyla stops (patches). And here it can be clearly seen that the global shutter sensor is definitely noisier than its CMOS full-frame counterparts seen in other consumer full-frame cameras.

But Sony applied some magic to the image pipeline including the codecs, as the fine noise of the sensor is conserved in the final image and shadows can be massively pushed in post without ugly larger blotches of noise. This results in a superb 9 stops of exposure latitude with some room towards 10, making it the best Sony Alpha camera to date in video mode in terms of dynamic range! It is also the best consumer full-frame camera in that regard.

What a surprise – all this from a global shutter sensor! Well, as mentioned at the beginning of the article, times are a’changin …

 

[kye]

11 hours ago, hoodlum said:

It looks like Sony has significantly cleaned up their video noise quality.  I do wonder if this can be applied to other non-global shutter sensors as well.

https://www.cined.com/sony-alpha-9-iii-lab-test-dynamic-range-and-latitude/

Possibly, but you know Sony - only the latest releases are updated and the rest are dead to them!

[kye]

Apparently Soderbergh shot his latest film on the A9 III..  in this article he talks about a "Sony DSLR" but there are tweets etc elsewhere that say it was the A9 III.  Maybe the global sensor was a deciding factor.  

Anyway, good to see that when moving away from cinema cameras the choice isn't completely ridiculous and something sensible was chosen.  It's nice when film-makers don't just treat the world of consumer cameras as a novelty but actually as something that has genuine potential and capability.

https://filmmakermagazine.com/124668-interview-steven-soderbergh-presence-sundance-2024/

[MrSMW]

As we always say, the camera, especially these days, is the least important part of the equation.

Big camera has always equalled big production, but that is more about perceived industry ‘standards’.

It all gets rigged out anyway so the size of these tiny cameras gets hidden.