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The ghost of squig

A Pocket 4K, X-T3, 5DMk3 ML raw odyssey

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3 hours ago, The ghost of squig said:

The 20ms rolling shutter on the 5DMk3 is a little too high for my liking for shoulder-rigged doco work, the EOS R has more rolling shutter than the 5DMk2 (25ms), way too much for my liking. Are you using an OIS lens with the R?

 

In HD the R has no rolling shutter. That's one of my biggest reasons for using it for all my handheld work. 

I have a couple of OIS lenses but very rarely use them for video. I stick with EF 1.8 primes and the in body stabilization.

I only use my OIS for the BMMCC since it doesn't have any stabilization.

2 hours ago, ade towell said:

According to Mattias there is no rolling shutter with the EOS-r 😉

That's correct. In Full Frame HD there is no rolling shutter worth mentioning. It's one of the main reasons I told my employer to invest in the R. I could have told them to buy anything I wanted. But since I will be using it, it had to be good at both Run n gun video as well as stills. It was the only choice really.

When Sony, Fuji etc can get rid of their rolling shutter as well a few other things I will consider them for hybrid work again. Until then they are stills only in my book.

 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

It seems you're now spreading misinformation about other cameras too... as you advised your employer to buy a camera in 2019 that only really works in hd then ok let's talk hd - the Sony A7r3 and A73 have in hd full frame and s35 (according to Samuel from DVXuser whose results I trust) some of the fastest rolling shutter speeds he has recorded. The XT3 isn't bad either.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?303559-Measuring-rolling-shutter-put-a-number-on-this-issue!

 I can't find any hd measurement for the EOS-r, Samuel said if it was a more interesting camera he would try to measure it. Maybe you could send him a sample and he can put a measurement to it
Having had a play with the EOS-r I can say that unfortunately the sharp s35 hd mode you compared to the C100 also has terrible rolling shutter. It is only the fairly soft full frame hd that is useable handheld. Not great in 2019
 

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1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

In HD the R has no rolling shutter. That's one of my biggest reasons for using it for all my handheld work.

Is that the full frame 1080p or the 720p? All cameras have rolling shutter, but if you mean "low" then that's ok... Surely much less than the 4K mode.

How do you find the rolling shutter in Super 35mm 1080p crop mode?

Quote

I have a couple of OIS lenses but very rarely use them for video. I stick with EF 1.8 primes and the in body stabilization.

A decent OIS lens is the 17-55mm F2.8 IS from Canon, good match for the 4K crop on the EOS R so it brings that into play.

It's much bulkier than the Fuji 18-55mm F2.8-4 though and not parfocal.

Quote

I only use my OIS for the BMMCC since it doesn't have any stabilization.

That's correct. In Full Frame HD there is no rolling shutter worth mentioning. It's one of the main reasons I told my employer to invest in the R. I could have told them to buy anything I wanted. But since I will be using it, it had to be good at both Run n gun video as well as stills. It was the only choice really.

When Sony, Fuji etc can get rid of their rolling shutter as well a few other things I will consider them for hybrid work again. Until then they are stills only in my book.

Fuji's rolling shutter in 1080p on X-T3 and X-T30 is at least as minimal as the EOS R.

There should be up to date measurements somewhere in one place so we can keep track of it.

For those that need 4K, the rolling shutter on the EOS R is amongst the worst, and I feel that also needs to be taken into consideration on any list or chart.

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47 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Is that the full frame 1080p or the 720p? All cameras have rolling shutter, but if you mean "low" then that's ok... Surely much less than the 4K mode.

I think "low" goes without saying when discussing consumer stills cameras.

47 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

How do you find the rolling shutter in Super 35mm 1080p crop mode?

Much worse, I only use it for landscape shots etc where I need the extra detail. So I can live with it. 

47 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

A decent OIS lens is the 17-55mm F2.8 IS from Canon, good match for the 4K crop on the EOS R so it brings that into play.

I have the Tamron 17-50/2.8 VC. It works really well to. But I'm bidding on the Canon 17-55 since the Tamron apparently doesn't have stabilization on the BMPCC4K + Viltrox.

58 minutes ago, ade towell said:

It seems you're now spreading misinformation about other cameras too... as you advised your employer to buy a camera in 2019 that only really works in hd then ok let's talk hd - the Sony A7r3 and A73..

Stopped reading there. Hyperbole about the 4K and I have no interest to read anything about a $3000 stills camera that doesn't even have a top display. Let alone the other "ifs" and "buts".

Plus, this old dead horse debate is off topic. I look forward to reading about Squigs endeavors in comparing the cameras from the side line.

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33 minutes ago, ade towell said:

Stop with your misinformation and I'll stop calling you out on it. Simple really.

Anyway yes sorry Squig, am also interested in your findings

 

I think he has made it quite clear that he is referring to Full HD recording and you guys just keep attacking him for it.

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1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Well full HD recordings on any camera have good rolling shutter. The A73 rolling shutter in 4k is also really good. 

The maximum rolling shutter is determined by the maximum frame rate a particular mode has. Most cameras can shoot 1080p at 60 fps, so the worst rolling shutter can be is 16.7 ms. 4K on the other hand usually tops out at 30 fps, which means that in a camera that can just manage that the rolling shutter delay will be up to 33.3 ms (but not more).

If you have a camera that can shoot at 120 fps, rolling shutter cannot be worse than 8.3 ms.

It is one of the reason why high frame rate cameras are desirable, even if you don't actually shoot at that frame rate. You know that the camera is capable of reading the sensor at that speed.

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After a week on the the road with the 3 cameras shooting 5 events over 3000 kilometers I got a good feel for the 2 newbies vs the 5DMk3 under a range of uncontrolled practical low lighting conditions. It didn't take very long for me to decide to ditch the X-T3. I love the design, and it can produce a good image, but under those kind of conditions HEVC 10bit is no match for 14bit lossless raw or Braw. Even custom white balancing with a grey card was hit and miss, and slight underexposure was disastrous. I did love the OIS lens, so much so I'm getting an OIS lens for the Pocket 4K. 

I just posted some dynamic range test pics here:

With the Viltrox speed booster, the Pocket 4K has a 1-2 stop low light advantage over the 5DMk3 raw, which has been very handy. I did see some moire on some grey blinds, and there's the macroblocking in blue skies issue, but apart from that the Pocket 4K has been behaving well. I used a Sony L-series battery to Canon LP-E6 dummy battery, and a generic NP-F970 battery lasted around 1.5-2 hours. Interestingly, the batteries still had a 60% charge when the P4K was ready to conk out.

CLTCMho.jpg

I really hope Fujifilm get it right with the XH2 or X-T4 with ProRes raw or some other flavour of raw over USB-C or to internal XQD/CFexpress cards. Perhaps Fujifilm could do raw to USB-C on the X-T3 with a firmware update?

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25 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I'd love to see some comparison footage. 

Wasn't expecting the Pocket to be significantly better than the Fuji. Its a very tempting option right now along with a hacked 5D mark 3. How does prores compare to the HEVC on the Pocket?

I am exactly thinking the same... For still + video, could be a good combo. Lenses and batteries can be shared, even if it appears to be better going external on the BM. Given the prices of the used 5D, it roughly makes the pack at the same level of the others hybrids (if keeping the BM accessories to a minimal).

I wonder something, maybe @The ghost of squig has an answer : I see everybody rigging the bmpcc4k (with quite big rigs for some), which is, given its purpose as a cinema camera, a logical thing. But, what if you try to use it with the minimal accessories, e.g only a smallrig cage (+ a t5 ssd, or only a fast sd card) and a little mic ? I believe the battery life is only 20min, but if you have 4 or 5 canon batteries with you and a powerbank to charge them in an emergency, could it work to avoid the big external powering solutions ? I know it depends on the shooting style and the type of work, but, still, I wonder 😄

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Just now, Geoff_L said:

I am exactly thinking the same... For still + video, could be a good combo. Lenses and batteries can be shared, even if it appears to be better going external on the BM. Given the prices of the used 5D, it roughly makes the pack at the same level of the others hybrids.

I wonder something, maybe @The ghost of squig has an answer : I see everybody rigging the bmpcc4k (with quite big rigs for some), which is, given its purpose as a cinema camera, a logical thing. But, what if you try to use it with the minimal accessories, e.g only a smallrig cage (+ a t5 ssd, or only a fast sd card) and a little mic ? I believe the battery life is only 20min, but if you have 4 or 5 canon batteries with you and a powerbanks to charge them in an emergency, could it work to avoid the big external powering solutions ? I know it depends on the shooting style and the type of work, but, still, I wonder 😄

My only worry with using a 5D mk3 or any Canon with magic lantern is the unreliability. I've heard of people losing all their footage, which of course is not acceptable for pro work.

Right now I have my XT30, Black Magic Pocket OG, and Pocket cinema Camera. Might consider selling the XT3 for a Pocket camera 4k.

I am tempted to get a 5D mk3 but again Magic lantern kind of scares me.

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2 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

My only worry with using a 5D mk3 or any Canon with magic lantern is the unreliability. I've heard of people losing all their footage, which of course is not acceptable for pro work.

Right now I have my XT30, Black Magic Pocket OG, and Pocket cinema Camera. Might consider selling the XT3 for a Pocket camera 4k.

I am tempted to get a 5D mk3 but again Magic lantern kind of scares me.

Yes, I do not know what to think about the reliability, as I came across different opinions. Some warn everybody after they lost their footage... others say they never have any troubles ! But I think I read more of the latter.
Interesting that you keep your XT30 and not the XT3 . Both are on my list, and If I go the bmpcc4k route, I'll need a still camera !

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13 minutes ago, Geoff_L said:

Yes, I do not know what to think about the reliability, as I came across different opinions. Some warn everybody after they lost their footage... others say they never have any troubles ! But I think I read more of the latter.
Interesting that you keep your XT30 and not the XT3 . Both are on my list, and If I go the bmpcc4k route, I'll need a still camera !

Thinking about it now I'll probably sell the XT30, I like the XT3 body more and of course internal 10 bit is nice to have. I am not sure if I'll go this route or not. It would definitely throw a wrench in my system. Would satisfy my never ending new camera acquisition syndrome tho lol

The plus side is I already have a bunch of manual glass I can adapt so that would be an easy switch.

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19 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Thinking about it now I'll probably sell the XT30, I like the XT3 body more and of course internal 10 bit is nice to have. I am not sure if I'll go this route or not. It would definitely throw a wrench in my system. Would satisfy my never ending new camera acquisition syndrome tho lol

The plus side is I already have a bunch of manual glass I can adapt so that would be an easy switch.

XT3 + bmpcc4k would be a great combo too... less cumbersome than BM + 5D for my needs. But probably out of budget. With that being said, I really like the tokina 11-16 f2.8 and the sigma 18-35 f1.8, and both can be shared between the XT3 and bmpcc4k. Plus, the budget could be less stretched than buying the same focals for a full frame...

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I know  a lot of people do it, but I would Never depend on ML for anything I can't repeat easily. Ergo, A Wedding, Baptism, Sporting event, on and on. I am a big fan of the 5d mk III but not if I was trying to make a living using ML on it. It is too unpredictable. Sure at low resolutions it works, but why even bother as a Pro doing that.

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7 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I know  a lot of people do it, but I would Never depend on ML for anything I can't repeat easily. Ergo, A Wedding, Baptism, Sporting event, on and on. I am a big fan of the 5d mk III but not if I was trying to make a living using ML on it. It is too unpredictable. Sure at low resolutions it works, but why even bother as a Pro doing that.

True, even with unpaid gigs it would royally suck to lose all the footage from a long day. 

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I think for what we are into the PK4 is hands down the winner. Lot more real options for serious work. For just a hobby, I think the XT-3 is pretty unbeatable. I am finding on the EOS M ML is a big pain in the ass for dependability. Each build you try is just a total re learn, and a shot in the dark. Frustrating, and well, not a lot of fun as an overall experience. For the money well sure, but why spend your life  F ing with something when you could just go out and shoot something in a normal manner and be done with it. Are you Really ahead? In this day and age you can make almost anything look like anything if you have skill.

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