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Andrew Reid

BIG NEWS - Hands on with CONTINUOUS raw recording on Canon 5D Mark III

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Actually Bioshock Infinite is amazing, worth a play if you want a great plot development and twistyness...

 

Anyway, yes this is gonna hit BMD pretty hard I think, especially as they're pretty slow at delivering cameras and I can get a 5D MKii now if I had the cash and inclination!

 

The 4K cam is still ahead, but the original BMD is a bit lost now...

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I wonder what Sony will make of all of this? An FS700 is way out of my price range and it's image isn't even beating the 5d3 with ML. The only thing it has going for it is the high framerates at full HD.

 

VG-900 was exciting on paper but not good in actuality for example. They were ahead of the game for price/ performance with the 5n, 7, and RX100 but now they are lagging behind with no budget video dslr in sight....

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I wonder what Sony will make of all of this? An FS700 is way out of my price range and it's image isn't even beating the 5d3 with ML. The only thing it has going for it is the high framerates at full HD.

 

It might do, when raw is enabled. It could very well exceed it, Sony's sensors are usually very, very good. 14bit 2K/240p raw is gonna be very interesting (but still pricey).

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No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Photoshop indicates the raw file is 8 bit, but I opened it in another program and it indicates it's actually 14 bit.

Adobe Camera Raw doesn't indicate the bit depth. In the lower part of the screen you see the workflow settings, it is probably at 8 bit by default. That is just the setting used to import the image into Photoshop. You can click it and change it to 16 bit. If you do, the converted raw will be opened as a 16 bit file in photoshop and you can export it to 16 bit tiff for example.

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I wonder what Sony will make of all of this? An FS700 is way out of my price range and it's image isn't even beating the 5d3 with ML. The only thing it has going for it is the high framerates at full HD.

 

VG-900 was exciting on paper but not good in actuality for example. They were ahead of the game for price/ performance with the 5n, 7, and RX100 but now they are lagging behind with no budget video dslr in sight....

 

 

It might do, when raw is enabled. It could very well exceed it, Sony's sensors are usually very, very good. 14bit 2K/240p raw is gonna be very interesting (but still pricey).

 

 

Some of us have forgot about the FS700 with all the 5D raw hype. The image from the FS700 to me looks more filmic than the 8-bit you get from the 5D3. With the Metabones Speed Booster and the Odyssey 7Q recorder, you get almost full-frame raw, 240FPS, proper audio inputs, ND filter, the E-mount (which is waaaay more versatile than the EF).... its an absolute beast!

 

For the price, the above FS700 package is the ultimate raw camera (besides its ergonomics which are SHIT). Its image will likely surpass the 5D3. I guess for a lot of us, including me, its very expensive. But well worth it. 

 

Although my fast workflow will not allow it, the 5D3 hack is cool and I reckon it will be the start of raw becoming a compulsory feature in cameras within 2 years. Looking forward to seeing a properly made short with actual actors and cinematography on the 5D3 raw (could you peeps doing tests spend time doing that instead? ;) cheeky me )

 

p.s...... what on EARTH are Panasonic upto? FS700 competitor and high end GH please!!!

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Does anybody actually know what the FS700 raw output looks like? Too early too call it on that one. What about pricing? FS700 is $8000 + $2000 minimum for the recorder (Odyssey 7Q) plus codecs have to be bought individually on top of that.

 

I'm calling it $11k minimum, close to the F5 price so you may as well get the F5.

 

All still very very far from $3000 and a free raw upgrade isn't it?

 

Don't forget how good the sensor is in the 5D Mark III. Very very clean, probably native 2500 ISO, 12 stops DR, not to mention full frame. I think people are underestimating it because they haven't downloaded any DNGs and have just watched the clips on YouTube.

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Yeah, the price is still quite high for the whole package of the FS700. I would love it to be more affordable, since I have a Nex-5n and all my lenses and adapters would instantly work with it... together with the speed booster it would make a pretty nice image I'm sure.

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I'm certainly not underestimating it (the 5Draw).... It's taking all my will not to order one, right now... But i just don't need to shoot until September and have already shot every inch of where i live with a RED-MX, so will let the dust settle on all these options. The DSLR format keeps pulling me in though, i imagine i will have a 5DIII here within a month :D

 

I do think the FS700 is worth keeping an eye on though.... It is alot of camera for $11k (the F5 would be closer to $20k, with an odyssey for 4K) ... and every chance it could hit the 14 stops DR of it's bigger brothers.....

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Does anybody actually know what the FS700 raw output looks like? Too early too call it on that one. What about pricing? FS700 is $8000 + $2000 minimum for the recorder (Odyssey 7Q) plus codecs have to be bought individually on top of that.

 

I'm calling it $11k minimum, close to the F5 price so you may as well get the F5.

 

All still very very far from $3000 and a free raw upgrade isn't it?

 

Don't forget how good the sensor is in the 5D Mark III. Very very clean, probably native 2500 ISO, 12 stops DR, not to mention full frame. I think people are underestimating it because they haven't downloaded any DNGs and have just watched the clips on YouTube.

 

I actually think the DR is the biggest thing holding the 5D3 back from looking really filmic in the bright sunlight. The DR of the fs700 has been reported to be almost 14 stops, so I'd imagine it would handle these shots much better than the 5D3's 11.7 stops of DR.

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Does anybody actually know what the FS700 raw output looks like? Too early too call it on that one. What about pricing? FS700 is $8000 + $2000 minimum for the recorder (Odyssey 7Q) plus codecs have to be bought individually on top of that.

 

I'm calling it $11k minimum, close to the F5 price so you may as well get the F5.

 

All still very very far from $3000 and a free raw upgrade isn't it?

 

Don't forget how good the sensor is in the 5D Mark III. Very very clean, probably native 2500 ISO, 12 stops DR, not to mention full frame. I think people are underestimating it because they haven't downloaded any DNGs and have just watched the clips on YouTube.

 

I agree. The 5D3 raw feature is staggering for the price, also doubling up as an awesome stills camera. Its a lot camera for $3000. 

 

I wouldn't even think of starting to compare the FS700 package to the 5D3 because of the price difference, they are totally different cameras. Obviously cant say how close the images are at this point, but for people who have the money for the FS700 package, its a bang load of awesome features to help flow your creativity. Thats what the extra money is for. 

 

I shoot a lot on the FS700 (rented) and I could imagine the raw feature being fantastic. It will become a more affordable feature set in the future on whatever comes out when it does. *cough* PANASONIC!!?

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Before I'm able to save up for an upgrade to a better system (~i7, 32GB ram, GTX, SSD kind of thang), I have to make my current OSX jawns work for a little while.... I know 4k editing is out of the question, but will I be able to clunk through editing RAW 1080 with my Macbook Pro (i5 2.4GHz, 8GB DDR3, 180GB SD [os/applications], 3TB external [video files])? 


 
Also, this wasn't answered earlier in the thread (possibly due to the fact that I'm just here asking questions and not contributing - sorry! help is very much appreciated)... but can this/ML in general be turned off? As in could I record some RAW clips and then turn that off and record normal footage as well if needed, or is it a firm commitment you make and can only reverse with firmware updating? 
 
Thanks!

 

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On a 12-Core MacPro (2.93GHz), SSD drives, getting 1.62 FPS converting DNG to 50Mbps H.264 (16% CPU utilization) in AE CS6. AE also leaks memory along the way (didn't run out of RAM (24GB) for 641 frames, but got close).

 

The test shot of the equipment on my desk looked very nice (dropped frames; boring, not posting it ;))- sharp, detailed, clean (NR with ACR), even slightly higher res compared to my FS700 + Speed Booster.

 

The 128GB Komputerbay 1000x card maxed at around 55MB/s, so can only do 1920x720 max. This is almost half of the advertised 90MB/s min write speed shown on Amazon.com  (sending it back). Trying a 32GB card next (Komputerbay rates at 100MB/s). I don't see using this for anything other than really short takes given the current workflow, so 32GB is fine for now.

 

Given my knowledge of GPU shaders and the DCT used for JPEG, it should be possible to convert directly from RAW to MJPEG faster than real-time (I haven't written a GPU debayer routine yet, though the basic concept is simple enough. Not clear how much work to get something close to ACR quality (low-artifact sharpness and NR might be challenging)).

 

Sony has implied that the FS700 will get XAVC in the upcoming firmware update next month. The hardware upgrade so far sounds to be around $300 (might be required to get the firmware update). If the FS700 gets 10-bit 422 H.264 (XAVC), not sure if the extra work for the 5D3 RAW workflow will provide much improved results for most shots and content targeted for the internet. The FS700 has builtin ND's and pro audio, another major bonus for fast workflows compared to the 5D3. Then there's the slomo too... a lot more cost, but worth it (4K has yet to be seen, but could be very useful too (with Convergent Design hardware)). Still dig the 5D3 stealth factor and small/light handling in general (along with an IS lens).

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Cinema 5D reports it's faster to not use AE but instead just use ACR in Photoshop.

 

http://www.cinema5d.com/?p=18065

 

 

If the FS700 gets 10-bit 422 H.264 (XAVC)

 

 

...I'll probably buy one. Especially if it can do 240fps at that quality. I need a slomo cam, and while I would normally rent the FS700 and wait for Sony to make a baby F5, the XAVC codec might put things over the top.

 

The C100 has far better low-light than the FS700 does be aware. The 5D3 RAW is probably better low-light too. But no HFR and HFR is an essential for me.

 

Better low-light would be a big practical improvement for HFR though, because of the fast shutter speeds. Canon needs a fast cam cheaper than the C500. I'm holding out hope ML does HFR on the 5D3 in MJPEG.

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I'm holding out hope ML does HFR on the 5D3 in MJPEG.


That would be amazing indeed, however that might mean overheating since the camera has to convert from raw to jpeg in camera, and at a HFR. Just a guess though, not an expert on the camera's electronics...

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That would be amazing indeed, however that might mean overheating since the camera has to convert from raw to jpeg in camera, and at a HFR. Just a guess though, not an expert on the camera's electronics...

 

One thing to keep in mind is that the Digic 5 is probably going to be Canon's main processor for many years as the Digic 4 was. And so its performance spec is probably well overbuilt for the current generation of cameras. We know now that the 5D3 was capable of a lot more than spec. I think we're only scratching the surface in fact...if it does 120fps 6K MJPEG I will be impressed but I won't think laws of physics will have been broken nor will I think the thing is going to melt down.

 

One thing we might discover is that some Digic 5 units (photogs call them "copies" for some reason, but that sounds like a knockoff to me) are higher spec than others just as we do with overclocked CPUs. But ML won't be overclocking the chip, just asking it to do more than normal. I think Canon is artificially scheduling the rollout of capability across a core technology cycle...and ML can skip us ahead a few years on Canon's roadmap. It isn't entirely Canon's fault...fast enough CF cards as we see aren't readily available yet and Canon wants to ensure everyone has a good experience.

 

Computer performance is an empirical thing. ML won't know what the system can do until it asks it to, and then as we see a lot of optimization can be done to do even more. The 1DC shows we can do 4K (8MP) MJPEG at 24fps with a couple Digic 5's. I have doubts that both Digic 5's are needed in fact...they might have chucked two in there just to make people think it was a more powerful body, and the heatsink in the 1DC is most likely just window dressing (there is no active cooling system or other improvement in heat dissipation out of the body, so what does it do exactly?). We know Canon indulges in kabuki theatre...it's established now. We can't defer to everything they do as being technically necessary. Let's see what ML can do with the 5D3. I think there are bigger surprises ahead.

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I for one will be waiting in the wings with my trusty GH2 until the dust settles. This RAW camera turmoil isn't over by a long shot. I personally doubt it will seriously hurt Blackmagic in its current form. The truth is, the Blackmagic cameras and Canon cameras are completely different animals in more ways than just the codec. Add on top of that the fact that the Blackmagic cameras are purpose-built for RAW right out of the box, and it really is hard to say they'll take a hit from this. If faster CF cards come out and MagicLantern can really get this nailed down and reliable, then maybe. But even then, it is a modification-type solution, not a purpose-built RAW camera. There's something very appealing about recording straight to SSD. There's something very, very appealing about global shutter. And on top of that, full frame photographic is not an industry standard and will not play very nice with most cinema glass . . . whereas the Blackmagic 4K cam certainly will. I'm not saying that what MagicLantern has done is not significant, it is. But when something is this amazing for free, a better solution will probably show up as a product soon after. In my book, Blackmagic are slowly moving into prime position to deliver a true knockout hit. Sony could certainly do the same tech-wise, but they price too high. What MagicLantern has proved is that Canon could tech-wise as well, though they either weren't smart enough to implement this or were unwilling to do so for some reason.

 

So I'm going to sit tight and see how it plays out. Sooner or later a real pro-quality and full-featured  cinema RAW camera will be available from one of these companies. Until then, I'm going with the GH2. It was and still is very inexpensive, yet perfectly capable in the right hands, as many of these cameras are. But I've become increasingly aware of other features besides RAW that are almost more beneficial, like built-in ND, XLR or similar pro audio inputs, Zebra, Peaking, and alternative aspect ratios (for anamorphic). Such things seem basic because they've been around for a while, but their benefit is not lessened by that.

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I for one will be waiting in the wings with my trusty GH2 until the dust settles. This RAW camera turmoil isn't over by a long shot. I personally doubt it will seriously hurt Blackmagic in its current form. The truth is, the Blackmagic cameras and Canon cameras are completely different animals in more ways than just the codec. Add on top of that the fact that the Blackmagic cameras are purpose-built for RAW right out of the box, and it really is hard to say they'll take a hit from this. If faster CF cards come out and MagicLantern can really get this nailed down and reliable, then maybe. But even then, it is a modification-type solution, not a purpose-built RAW camera. There's something very appealing about recording straight to SSD. There's something very, very appealing about global shutter. And on top of that, full frame photographic is not an industry standard and will not play very nice with most cinema glass . . . whereas the Blackmagic 4K cam certainly will. I'm not saying that what MagicLantern has done is not significant, it is. But when something is this amazing for free, a better solution will probably show up as a product soon after. In my book, Blackmagic are slowly moving into prime position to deliver a true knockout hit. Sony could certainly do the same tech-wise, but they price too high. What MagicLantern has proved is that Canon could tech-wise as well, though they either weren't smart enough to implement this or were unwilling to do so for some reason.

 

So I'm going to sit tight and see how it plays out. Sooner or later a real pro-quality and full-featured  cinema RAW camera will be available from one of these companies. Until then, I'm going with the GH2. It was and still is very inexpensive, yet perfectly capable in the right hands, as many of these cameras are. But I've become increasingly aware of other features besides RAW that are almost more beneficial, like built-in ND, XLR or similar pro audio inputs, Zebra, Peaking, and alternative aspect ratios (for anamorphic). Such things seem basic because they've been around for a while, but their benefit is not lessened by that.

 

Nice post Caleb,

 

I think its been really really hard to justify upgrading because of manufacturers playing customers for fools. My last proper camera was an EX1 and now just use a GH2 and wait until manufacturers treat customers properly or BMC gets theirs in the shops.

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