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Canon Full Frame Mirrorless is just around the corner?

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8 hours ago, Robin Billingham said:

I should add my main income is audio work, although i have made a few music videos and a few other bits for money i wouldnt class myself a 'pro' by a long shot :)


What kind of audio work do you do?

As that is my line of work too:
http://ironfilm.co.nz/sound/

 

8 hours ago, Robin Billingham said:

I recognise i will be a minority but iv never used either a native lens or an auto focus one for either stills or video from when the gh1 first came along.


Nice, I also started out on the GH1 :-D

9 hours ago, Mokara said:

I think the problem with Canon is that the message they took home from the 5D2 experience is that users wanted smallish ILC video cameras, when in fact what they wanted was hybrids. And that is why they went down the wrong path and consequently opened the door for the likes of Panasonic and Sony to exploit, since those companies had a better understanding of where the consumer market was heading.

There were lessons to be learned from the 5D2 experience, but unfortunately it was not Canon that learned them.


I think the message from the 5Dmk2 is that people wanted affordable ILC video cameras, which the C300mk1 wasn't. Yet the GH3/GH4/etc & NEX5N/a7S/etc is!

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Then you say the C line is a huge mistake?! Do you even know how many are serviceable in the industry? C100 and C300 (especially the first) sold great. 


Yup, the C300mk1 was the hottest camera of its era!


Like the FS7 is today. 

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5 hours ago, mkabi said:

I stand by what I said, the C-line was a mistake... and it was NOT spawned by the 80s and 90s VHS, CD, Mini-DV movement....

If you worked in that time and wanted that ENG style... Just rig it up!

You can always build up a DSLR/MILC to be a 20lbs ENG monster, but can you can strip away an 20lbs ENG monster to be as small as a MILC/DSLR?

Tell me... can you strip away the C100/C300 to be as small as a M50? 

Though, the M50 is not the ideal camera, but it could have been.... it has an APS-C sensor which is similar to a super 35.... everything is crippled on the M50 because of the C-line. If the C-line didn't exist... you can bloody build up the M50 to be like a C300mkii.

 

 

you got this a bit wrong... pro filmmakers want pro dedicated tools. the C-line answered that as far as ergonomics, built-in NDs, recording time, battery life, XLR/SDI etc..

the game changer from the C-line was the modular approach and DSLR-inspired hand grip. this paradigm was so brilliant & succesful Sony (FS) & now even Panasonic (EVA-1) have copied it.

and it is far smarter & easier to strip away these type cams than to rig up MILCs:

explode.jpg

fs5-modular.jpg

Mail-Attachment-5-600x400.jpg

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:


What kind of audio work do you do?

As that is my line of work too:
http://ironfilm.co.nz/sound/

 

I have a mix of audio background. I toured with a couple of metal bands (playing guitar) for a few years. I had my own small recording studio in the Uk and then ran this one for a few years ..

https://www.lodgerecording.co.uk

I have also toured doing live sound on and off.

Most of my income is currently from song royalties. My own, my old bands, tracks i wrote or contributed too and i have a growing collection of library music with a couple of publishers. 

Other than that i still do some producing and mixing freelance.

I have never worked on sound for film like you, with film im happier on the camera and or lighting mostly, but also started making shorts and slowly working on a feature idea :)

Checked out your site.. Great stuff, got some nice gear too !

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4 hours ago, IronFilm said:


What kind of audio work do you do?

As that is my line of work too:
http://ironfilm.co.nz/sound/

 


Nice, I also started out on the GH1 :-D


I think the message from the 5Dmk2 is that people wanted affordable ILC video cameras, which the C300mk1 wasn't. Yet the GH3/GH4/etc & NEX5N/a7S/etc is!


Yup, the C300mk1 was the hottest camera of its era!


Like the FS7 is today. 

The C100 was as affordable as a 5D2.

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5 hours ago, Robin Billingham said:

Checked out your site.. Great stuff, got some nice gear too !


Thanks! I have a YouTube channel too:  https://www.youtube.com/c/SoundSpeeding

 

2 hours ago, Mokara said:

The C100 was as affordable as a 5D2.


Only now its price has dropped. 

The C100mk1 is indeed quite low, so too is the C100mk2 as it is near EOL, but once the C100mk3 hits it will be priced nearer to a FS5/EVA1 instead. And will be just as relatively unaffordable as the original C100 was back at launch (which was  US$7,999 at launch!!! How on earth is that just as affordable as a 5D series camera????). 

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11 hours ago, Django said:

you got this a bit wrong... pro filmmakers want pro dedicated tools. the C-line answered that as far as ergonomics, built-in NDs, recording time, battery life, XLR/SDI etc..

the game changer from the C-line was the modular approach and DSLR-inspired hand grip. this paradigm was so brilliant & succesful Sony (FS) & now even Panasonic (EVA-1) have copied it.

and it is far smarter & easier to strip away these type cams than to rig up MILCs:

explode.jpg

fs5-modular.jpg

Mail-Attachment-5-600x400.jpg

I'm not saying that it won't be popular and its not satisfying professional videomakers needs.

Isn't this a classic... "If you build it, they will come..." scenario?

May be... I am wrong... but given the options, I think filmmakers would have come around to our ways.... Times are changing.... I don't have a land-line in my house (I have the jacks, but only use it to get ADSL connection to the internet) - its pure smart phones in my house.

But, really... what are we talking about here.... I'm talking about a true hybrid camera. I can't strip down and take a C100 anywhere.... can't pack it for vacation, take it out to take videos of my kids, etc.

And, I wouldn't have a problem with the C-line if Canon didn't think it would affect it by adding some decent features in their DSLR/MILCs.

@IronFilm Yes. that adapter is for Mirrorless, and you can't do an add-on with EF mount. But, I figure that they can figure out something... Dave Dugdale said that he would return to Canon if they replaced the mirror box in DSLRs with built-ND module. 

 

 

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https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/canon-manager-confirms-shifts-focus-slr-mirrorless-cameras/

 

http://www.canonrumors.com/the-state-of-the-canon-full-frame-mirrorless-development/

8 hours ago, mkabi said:

@IronFilm Yes. that adapter is for Mirrorless, and you can't do an add-on with EF mount. But, I figure that they can figure out something... Dave Dugdale said that he would return to Canon if they replaced the mirror box in DSLRs with built-ND module. 


It would be a good use of all that space to put an ND filter inside. 

However.... even E mount (FS7/FS700/FS5/Venice), FZ mount (F3/F5/F55), and MFT mount (AF100/LS300) can fit ND filters within their mount. 

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On 4/1/2018 at 4:55 AM, webrunner5 said:

I Think it was either 1998 or 1999? I bought it from a camera store in Cincinnati, Ohio.  The person traded it in for a DCS 560. I traded in my last 2 Hasselblad bodies and lenses for it. My wife and I, on the side, were doing model portfolios and it just seemed like the way to go at the time. And at that time most model agencies wanted prints in B&W, and wow film was Hard to get right at the time consistently, and the DCS 460 had just a beautiful B&W output with the Hot Mirror off. And they only needed 8x10 prints for the model agencies from the models. And the 460 could do that easy, and quick also.

We had a full blown Dark Room at the house, and a photo, video studio, but it was time consuming compared to digital, and really pretty expensive with mistakes, and well trying to get the best results. We might take 50 shots or more , and that is a LOT of developing, printing effort. So the 460 paid for its self pretty quick. Plus we were doing a few weddings yet, not many by then, we wanted  a couple of Weekends off LoL. Plus we were doing video ads for local company's, so we needed as fast of a turnaround as we could get. We jumped on the digital era as fast as we could. I was lucky my wife was as crazy as I was about photography, Video. But she died of cancer like I said before, in 2002, and I just lost my desire to go on with it. She was 50% of the engine that made it happen. I could not have done it if I wanted too. Plus I had 1 young son at home yet. So I gave up all the Photo, Video stuff and just moved on as they say. We were Too busy to be honest. I sort of blame myself to this day that maybe all the stress caused the Cancer with her. Hell I don't know. Hell I had a heart attack myself 4 years earlier from running my Excavation Company. Stress will kill your ass I can tell you that. We were about as busy as you can get. And in our mid 50's. Too old for all that shit on paper.

 

Thank you for sharing, was really interesting hearing about your experiences in the early era of digital photography. I can see where you're having a very high turn over of photos but only for B&W 8x10 then it makes a hell of lot of logic to have got that camera. Smart.  

Sorry to hear about your wife though :-/ 

 

On 4/1/2018 at 4:55 AM, webrunner5 said:

My advice is to live as simple and debt free as you can.


That is me! Debt free (wellllll... aside from student loan debt, but here in NZ that is interest free so it really doesn't matter)

Although now and then I get tempted to lease-buy a Sonosax SX-R4+..... but that would be dumb. 

On 4/1/2018 at 4:55 AM, webrunner5 said:

Be happy with a BMPCC or a GH4, A7s, unless you are making a living with Video. And if you are making a living doing it, well then you are going to be in a Never ending race for having to have the next best camera out there to stay on top! Been there done that! Not much to write home to Mother about at the end of the day when you get old and look back at it. Times goes fast as hell, but if you are enjoying what you do fine, but if you aren't, well you are wasting your precious time.

Even for those who are working in the industry should be careful before they jump on that endless cycle of upgrades, many people can do that upgrade cycle slower and get better value out of what they have now. 

 

 

On 4/3/2018 at 12:01 AM, Django said:

Rumored specs [CR1]:


CR1 rating, so we can basically ignore this 100% if we so wish. 

 

 

On 4/3/2018 at 1:34 AM, mercer said:

A smooth integration means an adapter. For us video guys, we don’t mind adapters so much. But will a professional photographer... (you know the guys and gals these cameras are made for) ...will they want to use an adapter with all of their FX lenses just to have a mirrorless camera? Each lens becomes larger so some of the benefits of the smaller form factor is gone and with every connection there is a slight risk of failure. Nikon has way too rich of a lens history to muck it up IMO. 


They could make the integration so smooth that some people might not even realise there is a new Nikon mirrorless mount underneath! 

Like say with the Sony FZ mount, you could glance at a set up F3 / F5 / F55 camera and never even realize there is a FZ mount underneath!

 

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On 4/3/2018 at 4:31 AM, mercer said:

Obviously, the GH5s is geared toward the videographer but it is a niche product for a niche market... it’s also questionable if Panasonic will make a huge profit off the GH5s. On the day of release, anybody could have walked into BH and bought one off the shelf... so it may not be as hot of a seller as Panasonic hoped it would be. But it’s also a great bridge between the GH5 and the EVA1... so even at a loss it could prove to be a success in the long run  


Meanwhile Nikon still has their Nikon D850 out of stock, EIGHT MONTHS later after release!

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/04/02/nikon-d850-filmmakers-kit-now-in-stock-in-the-us.aspx/

Quote

Almost 8 months after the official announcement, the Nikon D850 camera is still out of stock in the US: B&H | Adorama | Amazon.


And this is why Canikon can be pretty complacent about Panasonic/Sony for now. 

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3 minutes ago, IronFilm said:


Meanwhile Nikon still has their Nikon D850 out of stock, EIGHT MONTHS later after release!

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/04/02/nikon-d850-filmmakers-kit-now-in-stock-in-the-us.aspx/


And this is why Canikon can be pretty complacent about Panasonic/Sony for now. 

Yup, this is why I predict Sony or Panasonic will get out of the consumer/prosumer camera business before Canon or Nikon will. 

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On 4/3/2018 at 7:12 AM, Django said:

..and "Cine line a big mistake"...?!! Tell that to all the happy EOS Cxxx camera owners out there.. (fwiw i just bought my second C100 two weeks ago!)

 


Now and then I get tempted to buy a 2nd Sony PMW-F3....   but I shouldn't!

What did  you get your 2nd C100 for?

On 4/3/2018 at 8:33 AM, Robin Billingham said:

To be honest i would buy a c200 if it was smaller. Its not even a money issue that makes me choose fuji xh1 or gh5 etc. Its size. Being inconspicuous and that sort of thing. That and using all my old lenses ;)

Take a look at the Terra 4K, is basically 5D size, and you can mount any lens on it!

 

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4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Although now and then I get tempted to lease-buy a Sonosax SX-R4+..... but that would be dumb. 

6 grand really doesn't sound too bad for a 16 channel Recorder. Not from that maker with their quality and track record. You should be able to wire it off in taxes for your business?

And it ought to help bring in business. Nothing wrong with having great tools that make you are living, and make it easier to do it. Time is money as they say.

https://www.sonosax.ch/product/sx-r4p/

Oh, and thanks for the remarks, especially about my wife. She was a special Irishwoman LoL.

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You can't write off the entire cost, just partially against the income tax I'd pay. (as expenses means my income is lower. Thus I'd pay less income tax. Although I could fully write off the GST component)

And would it lead to more work for me? I'd like to think so, but in my heart I know that isn't true. At least, not enough to justify the full cost (I like to feel that moment when it would be true is just around the corner....    but "just around the corner" might still be a year or three away)

Me buying a Sonosax (or a 688 or a Nomad etc) would be like someone buying a RED Helium long before they're ready to make it worthwhile for the work they do. (at least buying say another PMW-F3 would be less than a grand down the hole! Which is a smaller hit)

Thus I might as well keep on holding off, I'm sure in the near future we'll get an exciting new release from one of the companies (Sound Devices / Zaxcom / Sonosax / Zoom / Tascam / Roland / Marantz) which will be another compelling alternative instead. 

 

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Well it is pretty hard to wear out the good recorders.But they do get beat up a lot. They have been pretty noise free for years now, so a couple model older one would still get the job done for sure.  Yeah I sort of like the 688 a bit better. Have used a couple of their products Years ago. But it is pretty much the same price of the Sonosax SX-R4+. So not gaining much that way LoL. Although it had been out a bit longer I think. Might find a rental unit cheaper, but man they get the crap beat out of them. Great recorders have Always been expensive. They are built like a tank.

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17 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

They have been pretty noise free for years now, so a couple model older one would still get the job done for sure. 

I can't think of any non-current generation recorder that would seriously interest me (not unless at a truly ridiculously cheap price, which won't happen). 

Nomad/Maxx are all current generation. 

MixPre10T/633/664/688/788T are all current generation.

Sonosax SX-R4+ is current generation. 

F4/F8 is current generation. 

What previous generation older recorder might interest me? A 744? Nope. A 552? Nope, have that already (and doesn't get used much now, although I got it at a truly amazing price). 

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37 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I can't think of any non-current generation recorder that would seriously interest me (not unless at a truly ridiculously cheap price, which won't happen). 

 

Oh my, how did Anyone ever make a movie or a video 10 years ago with such inferior equipment LoL.  :cry:

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It boggles this young mind how it is was possible! ;-)

But seriously, although the base of development in the sound department is slower than in the camera department, it is still speedy enough that it makes the much older equipment redundant if you already have the newer equipment. (such as a Zoom F4)

It is like a person with a Panasonic GH5 not being interesting in a Sony FS100 or a Sony EX3, I find that perfectly understandable. 

And I think there are no "hidden gems" like say the Sony PMW-F3 in the secondhand sound recorder market (and if there is, I'd be very interested in hearing about it?).

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I dunno our go to boom operator swears by this big old tascam unit (looks almost analog!). sounds great but his mic is probably worth 10 times the recorder.

I don't know much about field equipment but spent quite a lotta time in pro audio studios and the amount of vintage "hidden gem" rack units far surpasses what's to be seen in commercial video production equipment imo (except maybe vintage glass). of course UAD has capitalized on that with their excellent plug-in emulations.

On 4/3/2018 at 8:46 PM, mkabi said:

But, really... what are we talking about here.... I'm talking about a true hybrid camera. I can't strip down and take a C100 anywhere.... can't pack it for vacation, take it out to take videos of my kids, etc.

And, I wouldn't have a problem with the C-line if Canon didn't think it would affect it by adding some decent features in their DSLR/MILCs.

 

 

i can strip down and pack my C100 and a big L lens inside my billingham hadley pro bag.. which is basically briefcase size bag.

but i hear you about a hybrid and especially full featured one by canon. we're all praying they go all out with the FF MILC.

the latest article on canonrumors says canon has used an unprecedented amount of feedback for it's development. looks like they really wanna get it right this time. that does give some hope. hopefully we'll hear more at NAB in a few days..

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3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

You can't write off the entire cost, just partially against the income tax I'd pay. (as expenses means my income is lower. Thus I'd pay less income tax. Although I could fully write off the GST component)

And would it lead to more work for me? I'd like to think so, but in my heart I know that isn't true. At least, not enough to justify the full cost (I like to feel that moment when it would be true is just around the corner....    but "just around the corner" might still be a year or three away)

Me buying a Sonosax (or a 688 or a Nomad etc) would be like someone buying a RED Helium long before they're ready to make it worthwhile for the work they do. (at least buying say another PMW-F3 would be less than a grand down the hole! Which is a smaller hit)

Thus I might as well keep on holding off, I'm sure in the near future we'll get an exciting new release from one of the companies (Sound Devices / Zaxcom / Sonosax / Zoom / Tascam / Roland / Marantz) which will be another compelling alternative instead. 

 

Maybe it's not even the right corner you are looking at!

When I returned home from studying/working/living abroad for half a dozen of years, starting to create back my network (that I had lost, for living so many years abroad, as my previous working life in my native country was even less!) that same year the financial crisis happened (and still goes on here! and it will for at least another 4-5 years, the best part of our lives), and had to realistically adapt to the situation (less expensive equipment, doing camera work as well, e.t.c). 

Sonosax is great though, if they bring the SD 10T to my country (it is not in sale, and the 6 costs 1800euros!!) and in a normal price, I think that is a better deal, for the situation. 

I hope you do the Sonosax, or whatever move you want soon. NZ seems like a healthy market with substantial space to increase your salary and equipment value, and maybe in a couple of years you will need an experienced assistant, offering old school experience and academic knowledge to your team! 

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