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The Canon C200 is here and its a bomb!

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On 4/17/2018 at 6:27 AM, zerocool22 said:

I am pretty sure I am not, there are hobbyists out there with RED camera's. So I am no special snowflake. Is it a substantial amount of money. Yes, but I didnt go to film school, I am 32 years old, I worked for 10 years hating my job. So why I drop this kind of money? I see it as a investment in myself. I did not go to film school, If I did I would have lost more then 10K on education, If I lost my job this could be a backup plan. People invest much more money in sports cars, horses, motorcycles, addictions,... So investing 10K in something I love is not that bad of a deal. 

haha yeah maybe the name dop is dropped too easy, everybody who shot a shortfilm calls themselves a dop, and nowadays anybody who operates a camera. And yeah most of them are in their 20's, and I should note they do not do narrative work. They grind small business for corporate video. As I know zero DOP's that do professional narrative work fulltime. If I knew one, I would be on set all the time perfecting this craft and getting tips from directors, gaffers and everybody else on the crew.


"Investment"?!


If you don't already have paid work lined up then you're certain to find that C200 will be a very poor investment indeed. 

 

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9 hours ago, IronFilm said:


"Investment"?!


If you don't already have paid work lined up then you're certain to find that C200 will be a very poor investment indeed. 

 

I dont mean investment in $ profit. I mean investment in my skillset. I learn something with every camera I buy. I am more about investing in knowledge. I could do wedding, event, corporate video's but then I would loose my passion so fast. I am not in this for the money as most of you are, as I already have a job. Its a hobby where I choose to spend my time and money on. I rather develop my skill up to a certain level, so I could do certain projects where I could work creative but still deliver high quality. 

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There is plenty of hobbyist drop big $$ on hasselblad & leica stuff, they cost way more than ursa mini pro

(especially with Chinese tourist i see, they even buy kid's leica camera to use lol)

 

It is still cheap compare to some other hobbyist like cars/boat/gliders/airplane, we have one person in our work fly a glider every other weekend, another one fly and own a soviet yak-52 as hobby, he said it cost few hundred dollars to fly his yak-52 each time

 

For me gh5s is good investment, did 20k job with it so already got money back and just come back from a nice trip in japan  :) (it sucks to go on holiday without spending some on nice food and nice hotel lol)

 

Though i use different camera when on holiday or other stuff but i m not alone in that one, i also found out some photog use different camera when they are on holiday (i know two use canon professionally but use fuji for other stuff), that way i have a different "mood" so i am actually on leisure and not remind me of myself working.

 

 

 

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Hello there! This is my new test with C200. It's handled without any tripod so it's a bit shaky, I've made Color Correction in Adobe Premiere CC 2018 with Magic Bullet and some tweaks in lumetri, with HDR on - shot in Rawlight. Please let me know what do you think about it, in particular in color correction that I've made. Just remember it's just my fourth test in Rawlight and I'm still trying to figure out what to do to make better images. If you have suggestions, tricks etc, let me know them in comments below. Thanks! :-)

 

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2 hours ago, Danilo Del Tufo said:

Hello there! This is my new test with C200. It's handled without any tripod so it's a bit shaky, I've made Color Correction in Adobe Premiere CC 2018 with Magic Bullet and some tweaks in lumetri, with HDR on - shot in Rawlight. Please let me know what do you think about it, in particular in color correction that I've made. Just remember it's just my fourth test in Rawlight and I'm still trying to figure out what to do to make better images. If you have suggestions, tricks etc, let me know them in comments below. Thanks! :-)

 

Some tips. 
- Use some kind of stabilisation, glidecam, ronin.
- Or use a tripod (I really dont like the handheld look)
- I get thrown off by the handheld shots, but it looks like this clip did not pay much attention to composition. Your other clip with the available light is much better. This clip is very crowded and the location does not seem that nice. And you are using a high fstop,  on this kinda situations you want to guide the eye of the viewer so a smaller fstop would help here. If you have amazing locations and good compositions you can use more high Fstops. So good locations will always help out a ton. Even a Alexa will look crappy under the wrong conditions.

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2 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Some tips. 
- Use some kind of stabilisation, glidecam, ronin.
- Or use a tripod (I really dont like the handheld look)
- I get thrown off by the handheld shots, but it looks like this clip did not pay much attention to composition. Your other clip with the available light is much better. This clip is very crowded and the location does not seem that nice. And you are using a high fstop,  on this kinda situations you want to guide the eye of the viewer so a smaller fstop would help here. If you have amazing locations and good compositions you can use more high Fstops. So good locations will always help out a ton. Even a Alexa will look crappy under the wrong conditions.

Thanks for suggestions and advices, very appreciated. The event was not organized, so I've tried to shot the best I can do. Lens aperture was very close because the sunlight was very strong, and I din't use any ND filters to make a different test from previous ones. I've planned to buy also a tiny little camera and use a gimbal, but I don't wanna buy a gimbal for C200 because it's too difficult to use with this large camera. Hope to make new test more enjoyable than this one, but they will probably still shaky and handled. I've just a tripod but there was no chance to use in similar context, I will use it for my future shorts with screenplay, not improvised ones. Thanks again, and have a nice day! :-)

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5 hours ago, Danilo Del Tufo said:

Hello there! This is my new test with C200. It's handled without any tripod so it's a bit shaky, I've made Color Correction in Adobe Premiere CC 2018 with Magic Bullet and some tweaks in lumetri, with HDR on - shot in Rawlight. Please let me know what do you think about it, in particular in color correction that I've made. Just remember it's just my fourth test in Rawlight and I'm still trying to figure out what to do to make better images. If you have suggestions, tricks etc, let me know them in comments below. Thanks! :-)

 

I actually like the look of the RawLite footage very much, although it is a little too saturated for my tastes. I think the biggest “issue” with this test is the randomness of it. It seems you are really trying to work out the kinks of using a new cinema camera. So, I’m unsure if using an event like this is the best time and place to sort it out?

If I were you, I’d find the most peaceful, beautiful place in your town. When the light is perfect, go there, with your tripod and shoot no more than 3-5 minutes of footage... edit that down to a 1-2 minute video and correct and grade the footage.

I also think that just using Lumetri for your tests may yield better results. Keep the correction/grade as simple as possible.

Also, are you shooting cLog? Because a simple cLog to Rec709 LUT should give you a great starting point and then just a light contrast and saturation adjustment will get you the rest of the way there. And... doesn’t the C200 have built in ND filters?

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Too saturated and too sharp yet for my liking. It does not even look like Canon footage. You are trying Too hard I think. You are just going to have to shoot, shoot, shoot, and edit, edit, edit to get it to Your liking. I guess maybe we are trying to hard to get it to OUR liking LoL!

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2 hours ago, mercer said:

I actually like the look of the RawLite footage very much, although it is a little too saturated for my tastes. I think the biggest “issue” with this test is the randomness of it. It seems you are really trying to work out the kinks of using a new cinema camera. So, I’m unsure if using an event like this is the best time and place to sort it out?

If I were you, I’d find the most peaceful, beautiful place in your town. When the light is perfect, go there, with your tripod and shoot no more than 3-5 minutes of footage... edit that down to a 1-2 minute video and correct and grade the footage.

I also think that just using Lumetri for your tests may yield better results. Keep the correction/grade as simple as possible.

Also, are you shooting cLog? Because a simple cLog to Rec709 LUT should give you a great starting point and then just a light contrast and saturation adjustment will get you the rest of the way there. And... doesn’t the C200 have built in ND filters?

Thanks for the compliments about my short video. I've tried a lot of combination in colors and LUTs, having hard time to determinate which was better. At the end I've tweaked with MB and Lumetri, using also HDR option in Premiere to have more room to color. What annoys me about this camera is the weight and it's very difficult to have stabilized shot handled. I've planned to use just the tripod for a short movie that I've wrote some months ago, but I still need to finish the storyboard and buy (next months) other necessary things. If I have some time I will try to shoot some other locations, following your advices, this video was very improvised without any plans. The C200 has Nd filters, but I've read that they can block the dynamic range of the camera, someone told me that with 6 ND filters I will have just the latitude of 11 stops, with that Sunlight I should try to combine ND filters and small aperture. Still I can't have all this very clear in my mind, when I shot into this improvised way. I need to make more tests before I will be satisfied.

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Too saturated and too sharp yet for my liking. It does not even look like Canon footage. You are trying Too hard I think. You are just going to have to shoot, shoot, shoot, and edit, edit, edit to get it to Your liking. I guess maybe we are trying to hard to get it to OUR liking LoL!

Thanks for your advices, I've the camera just recently and still having issues with Cfast card: this test was made to see if the 248GB Cfast card works instead of my 512GB that quite often is not recognized in camera, and I must return the Cfast card to original dealer soon. This test was totally improvised without know the location, so it was very hard with people asking if they will be in tv soon and something more like that. Don't worry about to be hard on me, I'm testing the camera to make better things but it's necessary a lot of time to accomplish this task.

Thanks again for your support, very appreciated. :-)

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27 minutes ago, Danilo Del Tufo said:

Thanks for your advices, I've the camera just recently and still having issues with Cfast card: this test was made to see if the 248GB Cfast card works instead of my 512GB that quite often is not recognized in camera, and I must return the Cfast card to original dealer soon. This test was totally improvised without know the location, so it was very hard with people asking if they will be in tv soon and something more like that. Don't worry about to be hard on me, I'm testing the camera to make better things but it's necessary a lot of time to accomplish this task.

Thanks again for your support, very appreciated. :-)

Yeah When I had my Panasonic AF100A it took me forever to get anything I was not ashamed to show anyone the footage LoL. These higher end cameras are Way too complicated to just Point n Shoot. They have too damn many options. And you trying Raw on top of that, well I am not surprised you are having some problems.

Maybe just doing the C Log thing with a LuT for awhile to get used to it might help. Dynamic Range isn't everything. It is only as of late many cameras have over 10, 11 stops and there is some fabulous footage from them out there. Heck the original C100 is a good example. 8bit and no Raw. Just C Log to help. Now that is a good help mind you.  :grin:

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The Canon C200 six months later. I watched this on my crappy iPhone 7, but if it’s the same on my desktop, all YouTube videos should look this good!

Also, I don’t recall anyone mentioning the awesome face-detect AF that doesn’t focus on the background when the subject disappears from view (but TBH, until this video, I never paid much attention).

 

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On 4/22/2018 at 8:13 AM, zerocool22 said:

I dont mean investment in $ profit. I mean investment in my skillset. I learn something with every camera I buy. I am more about investing in knowledge. I could do wedding, event, corporate video's but then I would loose my passion so fast. I am not in this for the money as most of you are, as I already have a job. Its a hobby where I choose to spend my time and money on. I rather develop my skill up to a certain level, so I could do certain projects where I could work creative but still deliver high quality. 

Guess I'm a cheap bastard I suppose, thus I struggle to understand why a person would drop the cost of a C200 kit (remember once you've rounded out your filmmaking kit then the C200 is but a drop in the bucket of your total costs!) just for a hobby.

If a person isn't working at it full time (thus they're spending 40hrs+/week working at sequeezing the most out of every shoot to get the best results for their clients because this is their business, vs a hobbyist who simply doesn't get that opportunity because they're only getting to do a full on shoot a few times a month or less. Thus they'll hit the wall of "diminishing returns" a lot earlier than the professional does), then it is highly likely they can get pretty similar results from a camera for a third of the price. 

 

On 4/22/2018 at 1:16 PM, ntblowz said:

There is plenty of hobbyist drop big $$ on hasselblad & leica stuff, they cost way more than ursa mini pro

(especially with Chinese tourist i see, they even buy kid's leica camera to use lol)

 

It is still cheap compare to some other hobbyist like cars/boat/gliders/airplane, we have one person in our work fly a glider every other weekend, another one fly and own a soviet yak-52 as hobby, he said it cost few hundred dollars to fly his yak-52 each time

Yeah, I had a meeting with an amateur director earlier this week and he was telling me that a while ago he spent $10K on a drone!! But even worse, never flew anything more than a GoPro on it because he didn't want to spend the extra money on top of that for a proper gimbal to carry a DSLR! (wtf... so why even spend that much on a drone if you're only going to fly a GoPro on it?? Oh, and then this year he sold his drone for around $2K ish as that is all it is now worth for. Depreciation, as the forward marching progress of drone tech continues)

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Guess I'm a cheap bastard I suppose, thus I struggle to understand why a person would drop the cost of a C200 kit (remember once you've rounded out your filmmaking kit then the C200 is but a drop in the bucket of your total costs!) just for a hobby.

If a person isn't working at it full time (thus they're spending 40hrs+/week working at sequeezing the most out of every shoot to get the best results for their clients because this is their business, vs a hobbyist who simply doesn't get that opportunity because they're only getting to do a full on shoot a few times a month or less. Thus they'll hit the wall of "diminishing returns" a lot earlier than the professional does), then it is highly likely they can get pretty similar results from a camera for a third of the price. 

 

Well pretty close, but not all the way. I notice the image quality over any dslr. (DR, color science, robust codec). I do kinda struggle with the grip that comes with it, as everything is heavier making my shoots more slow. If I see something I can improve on and even if nobody else can see the difference but I can, that is enough for me.

And I feel the UMP is keeping its value more then any other camera I ever bought. Allthough I am eying that kinefinity Mavo LF and the new orion atlas anamorphic glass(just one lens though) lol All that and it is still cheaper then a decent Car.

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2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yeah, I had a meeting with an amateur director earlier this week and he was telling me that a while ago he spent $10K on a drone!! But even worse, never flew anything more than a GoPro on it because he didn't want to spend the extra money on top of that for a proper gimbal to carry a DSLR! (wtf... so why even spend that much on a drone if you're only going to fly a GoPro on it?? Oh, and then this year he sold his drone for around $2K ish as that is all it is now worth for. Depreciation, as the forward marching progress of drone tech continues)

For $10K I'd be expecting a drone to be carrying me and the camera.

And some luggage.

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10 hours ago, jonpais said:

The Canon C200 six months later. I watched this on my crappy iPhone 7, but if it’s the same on my desktop, all YouTube videos should look this good!

Also, I don’t recall anyone mentioning the awesome face-detect AF that doesn’t focus on the background when the subject disappears from view (but TBH, until this video, I never paid much attention).

 

Honestly, other than ML Raw and the Canon color science, DPAF is one of the reasons I have transitioned back to Canon and will probably stick with them for years to come... even though I don’t own a Canon camera that has DPAF yet. Everything I have seen or heard about it is remarkable and going forward I decided to invest in Canon lenses.

Sure I’d love to have a C200 but that’s definitely out of my price range right now, so I’ll eventually pick up either one of their new mirrorless cameras or a 5D Mark IV.

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You have to be making some good money, or be pretty serious to buy a C200 or a Eva1, FS7 mk II. If you want to make money I think you Have to have one, or rent them a lot. But things are changing so fast I would almost be afraid to get into a system anymore.  I think I would buy a used Arri Alexa for 8 grand than a new above camera if you make your money on Sticks. It is such a proven, beautiful output camera. But media cost for it are Yikes kind of money!

I think the average person on sticks will be happy enough with this new 4K BMPCC, and a Speedbooster. I guess how good the AF is on it will determine other uses.

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13 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

You have to be making some good money, or be pretty serious to buy a C200 or a Eva1, FS7 mk II. If you want to make money I think you Have to have one, or rent them a lot. But things are changing so fast I would almost be afraid to get into a system anymore.  I think I would buy a used Arri Alexa for 8 grand than a new above camera if you make your money on Sticks. It is such a proven, beautiful output camera. But media cost for it are Yikes kind of money!

I think the average person on sticks will be happy enough with this new 4K BMPCC, and a Speedbooster. I guess how good the AF is on it will determine other uses.

I think it depends what work you're doing, really. @IronFilmand @zerocool22 conversation was quite interesting.

I'm at a point in time where I'm building up my portfolio and network to be working on jobs constantly, and I think investing in a camera like the C200 could be a good idea. Personally I feel you can tell the difference in quality between something like the C200 and a A7SII or a GH5. It's also a differentiator. So many people are 'grinding small businesses' and using GH5s and A7s which means investing in a C200 could certainly help secure some bigger, better paying work from clients who are looking for above average quality.

Naturally that also means better lighting, gimbals and sound. And, obviously, experierience comes into it. Just jumping from a Sony A7S to something like this without really getting to the point where you are getting the maximum you can from that kind of camera would be a bad idea.  For me though, I feel I'm at a point where moving up to a more dedicated video camera would actually help develop my skills.

I also don't really see the negatives with 'grinding small businesses'. I get that it's not as 'professional' as being on a set, as part of a bigger team, but there is an attractive element of it in that you often have a lot of control and often get to have a lot of input into the final tone and look of the video. Obviously, putting 'DoP' as your job title is a bit much, but I don't really buy into this idea that you must be doing narrative work or on a large set to truly be called a professional. 

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22 minutes ago, Gregormannschaft said:

I think it depends what work you're doing, really. @IronFilmand @zerocool22 conversation was quite interesting.

I'm at a point in time where I'm building up my portfolio and network to be working on jobs constantly, and I think investing in a camera like the C200 could be a good idea. Personally I feel you can tell the difference in quality between something like the C200 and a A7SII or a GH5. It's also a differentiator. So many people are 'grinding small businesses' and using GH5s and A7s which means investing in a C200 could certainly help secure some bigger, better paying work from clients who are looking for above average quality.

 

Well I have owned a few Cine cameras and I can tell you the benefits of having ND filters built in, and a Ton of buttons that are easy to get to really are a Hugh benefit. Not counting you just look a heck of a lot more Professional. And well, you are.  I think you will have No regrets of going with the C200. It will have a better output also. And naturally the Raw will be over the top looks wise in a Good way.

Did Canon Ever announce the Middle Codec on one yet??

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10 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well I have owned a few Cine cameras and I can tell you the benefits of having ND filters built in, and a Ton of buttons that are easy to get to really are a Hugh benefit. Not counting you just look a heck of a lot more Professional. And well, you are.  I think you will have No regrets of going with the C200. It will have a better output also. And naturally the Raw will be over the top looks wise in a Good way.

Did Canon Ever announce the Middle Codec on one yet??

Agreed, plenty of positives. It's a lot of cash, but I have found some second hand units out there for 6000€ with a few CF 2.0 cards included. Just waiting for something more local and I'll bite.

And they did announce the middle codec, still 8bit unfortunately. Only difference was it stored all the metadata. I think I could look to film most corporate work in RAW, use the proxies created in camera and then switch out for export. Should be a pretty easy workflow now that Premiere and FCPX accept the RAW files natively.

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