Video Hummus

I'm sure they will all change their toon when Fuji releases their next MF camera and lenses and they need to "review" it. I'm sure Chris will say. something like: "...and you get that unique medium format look...".

Don't watch the marketing monkeys.

On 1/23/2022 at 1:24 AM, kye said:

Then @Video Hummus posts an OIS + digital stabilisation test but only mentions digital stabilisation:

On 1/21/2022 at 3:47 PM, Video Hummus said:

I guess I’m just looking at it as a sum of its parts. As I see it OIS is already achieving its maximum benefits with very tiny incremental improvements (you can only move the glass around in the barrel of the lens so much). Same with IBIS. The sensor can only shift so much. Digital IS is all done in software. It can use feedback from gyro, accelerometers, OIS, and IBIS to achieve better results, limit the crop, limit the wobble, etc…

I love IBIS. I’m not particularly bothered with it missing in the R5C because canon already has excellent lens OIS and I use native RF glass handheld. Digital IS helps a bit and is one button click away to disable. You can’t truly disable IBIS the way it is implemented in current cameras. There are no mechanical locks in place and a magnetic lock will still wobble with the kinds of magnets and power draw limits in cameras.

So each their own. 

8 hours ago, kye said:

Anyway, I hope that everyone is putting more effort into what they do with their equipment than they spend talking about it.

Cheers.

2 hours ago, herein2020 said:

What I am seeing is worse than even this video shows, if you look closely at handheld C70 footage you will see weird jumping at times that makes the video hard to watch.

I think the EIS is linked to AF or a combination of things because you can have a the camera on a tripod and get it to jump suddenly. I think it is a bug with the current implementation. Also, in one of the interviews Canon Rep mentioned the EIS is using gyro in the camera. I wonder if we will be seeing future firmware updates to improve its effectiveness?

3 hours ago, Django said:

Exactly. Not only did Canon pave the way for 8K but also internal RAW, the holy grail people have been asking for since 5D2.. and now that its here, with compressed LT options even, people are still bitching the file sizes are too big etc.  

The funniest is hearing Panasonic users moaning about how the R5C uses DPAF1.. 

Canon just can't win here no matter what it seems!

But there is only OIS + digital stabilization so IT's clearly a piece of shit camera!

I'm not a brand fanboy but sometimes people just like to hate. I loved my Panasonic MFT cameras, but they sat on their asses for too long so I moved on. Canon is clearly upping their game. It's a good thing. Maybe Sony will finally put shutter angle in their FX3 camera.

In the ProAV video the stationary handheld OIS + Digital IS versus IBIS and the results for the digital was just as good if not better without weird warping corners which you would have to crop to get rid of anyway.

I'm not saying Digital IS is going to completely replace IBIS. They each have their trade offs and IMHO optical IS + Digital IS seems to offer less artifacts at wider focal lengths than IBIS can in video. Until we have IBIS mechanisms that can be completely lock down then there will be a market for both. IBIS is clearly beneficial but its not going to suddenly make your camera into a gimbal stabilized beast, not yet anyway.

13 hours ago, kye said:

1Gbps is fine for 8K RAW, but if you were shooting a documentary with literally hundreds (maybe even 1000+) hours of footage, halving the bitrate is a significant thing and can make a huge difference.  

Then use one of the 30 other bitrates the camera offers including some in 8K HEVC! Not that hard. Use the 8K RAW when it benefits you. Use the more compressed formates when storage space is a concern. It's not like this cameras has 3 bitrates options to choose from.

13 hours ago, kye said:

Ummm..... how?

Digital stabilisation can line up the frames with each other, but OIS / IBIS actually stabilises DURING THE EXPOSURE OF EACH FRAME.  If you have ANY motion blur in ANY frame then it's there forever and digital stabilisation can't do a single thing about it.

Even worse though, is that once the digital stabilisation has worked its magic, the shot looks smooth but there will be random blurring of frames without any corresponding change to the overall shot.  In other words, digital stabilisation without having very short shutter speeds will look worse than no stabilisation at all.

Yes trade offs for each system. I think you underestimate the sophistication of gyro and image processing but with regards to practical applications you are going to be using a stabilizer of some kind anyway. 

4 hours ago, mrtreve said:

The lack of IBIS genuinely stings a bit, but it's really tiny for an 8K 60P FF camera.

I think the micro-HDMI is the worst cripple in my opinion. I honestly think realtime gyro enhanced digital stabilization will be the future. You sacrifice a slight crop and 1-axis of correction (the axis that causes the wobble anyway) for more stable footage without the need for a fast shutter.

47 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

Maybe it has to do with the high resolution / noise reduction / skin softening. I just get iPhone vibes with the whole color pallet and texture.

Well do we know if that is straight out of camera or has it been seasoned to this guys particular tastes? What recording mode + profile did he use and compression ratio? Hard to be conclusive when we don't know what was done. And even so, if the 8K RAW LT holds up and retains the detail then there is a fix at cost of higher (but not deal breaking) storage requirements. Anglebird has +4TB CFX cards coming. I do think Canon has slipped a little bit with their color. Other brands have made huge leaps in consistency and quality.

19 hours ago, Kino said:

As proven by numerous tests, 10-11 stops is the best DR that the R5 can yield when shot in RAW. R5/R5C has no Clog2 during the RAW encoding. Selecting the Clog2 gamma in Resolve will yield the same DR:

All of this makes sense when you realize you are comparing a 12 bit sensor readout in the R5 to a 16 bit source (2 X 14 bit readout in DGO mode) in the C70.

Canon rates the C70 at 16+ stops, significantly above any claims they have made for the R5.

And this is why I keep flipping back and forth on these two cameras.

I like the size of the R5C but mostly I’m after the 4K downsampled image, unlimited everything, and occasional 8K RAW but the DR is no better than my R5. I would also miss IBIS for photos.

The C70 has better DR and internal ND but is S35. I have no interest in EF + focal reducer. I would rather go pure RF.

I’m leaning C70 since I already have R5. I’m sure we will see FF C camera in the under $6K price range in the future. Would love a FF C70 with internal ND. But is there enough room in the body for all of that?

13 hours ago, BenEricson said:

It actually is only 640mbps vs 410mbps. (I think that's the rate spec.) Pretty hopeful it'll do okay on the M1 laptops.

I think the 645Mbps is the RAW LT rate for the C70 4K. Which they obviously set for a safe maximum of V90 cards which the C70 is limited too. 

48 minutes ago, kye said:

We were talking about options for avoiding the "clay" skin-tones which the non-RAW codecs provide.  The only way to do that is to either shoot RAW or output RAW to something that won't degrade the skin-tones.

And 1GBps for 8K 12-bit footage is reasonable compromise compared to even ProRes HQ data rates at 10-bit.

There are a shit ton of codec options for everybody. 95% solutions to high +2GBps RAW options. Sounds good to me. 

5 hours ago, kye said:

the GH5 downsamples from 5K to 4K, and has been doing so since 2017, and there are very serious diminishing returns that kick in for this.

The R6 downsamples from 5K too and there is a clear difference between the image in clog3 from R6 and from R5. R5 has better noise control with the 8K -> 4K oversample. I see no downsides to oversampling if it doesn't impact RS.

5 hours ago, kye said:

Firstly, the human eye has limits, and depending on a range of factors those are somewhere between 2K and 4K.

Well get on the phone to Canon, Sony, Fujifilm and the rest and let them know. There are some clear benefits in signal processing that have nothing to do with how the human eye works. I am in agreement that we don't need to be racing to 24K because we can. Dynamic range is a far more important factor but has things stand DR is very slow to improve.

21 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Added EOS Standard and EOS Neutral.

What is the benefit of these over WideDR Rec.709?

10 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

We use the r6 and r5 as b cams for video at work. If you’d shot with them for any amount of time you know the ibis is not up to the task for professional work. The amount of times we got back to see weird warps on our footage is simply too high to trust it.

This is probably why they removed IBIS in the first place. People complain about IBIS wobble all the time.

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Now is the same quality or even better than the R5?

I believe its the same quality as R5, ie line skipped or pixel binned of some sort. It still looks really good.

16 hours ago, kye said:

The form-factor and external power requirements will make it less attractive to productions that can afford a cinema camera like a C200 or C300, and the lack of IBIS will make it less attractive to low-budget single-shooters.  

Clearly this camera is not for large productions and large productions know exactly what they want. So I've they buy this cameras as an A cam they are idiots. That's what the C500 Mark II is for or any other suitable A-cam cinema camera.

With regards to IBIS: assuming Canon solicited feedback it was clearly not a high priority feature request. GH5S didn't have IBIS either.

17 hours ago, kye said:

but try and make an argument that 8K60 is more important than, well, anything....

You could make that argument about 4K 5 years ago. 8K is beneficial for many things: better downsampled footage, VR, effects.

14 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Gordon Lang did a better test and it was still jittery.

Gordon Lang has very shaky hands. I've seen it in other videos as well when he is just holding up something to camera.

38 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

More importantly, I’d like to see more usability and codec options in these cameras rather than more K’s. Hybrids with internal ND’s, ProRes, better audio, larger LCD screens, better battery life, better menus, better “feel” to the image texture. Less need to rig

Agreed. Perfect camera would be a solid 6K camera, AF, internal ND, better audio, 4-5 inch bright LCD, and decent codecs and good DR

No camera is perfect. I think this is certainly a better effort than what Sony did with the FX3. There is Cinema RAW in there at roughly 3:1, 6:1, and 10:1 compression. There is DPAF v2 with object, face, head, eye detection. Oversampled 4K from 8K up to 60p. 8K60p RAW is there but with need of external PD power via USB-C (not ideal but it is there).

The R5C is an imperfect step forward but one in the right direction imho. It’s a proper cinema camera in a Large mirrorless form factor. The FX3 doesn’t even have shutter angle for fucks sake let alone false color. So here we are: the non-overheating R5 everybody wanted WITH full fledge EOS Cinema mode and people are still not happy.

Perhaps it’s the S1H people wanted without the garbage AF?…With internal RAW to boot and even better exposure tools? No IBIS but I’ll take that over out of focus footage or being stuck to MF for everything.

I’m excited. Let’s see what Sony does. Let’s see if Nikon can actually pull it off with Z6/7 mark 3. MF cinema from Fuji? PDAf from panasonic? Hell will freeze over but we can dream right?

I like the concept of the R5C. It’s the better FX3 from Canon. No IBIS is a slight bummer but RF lens IS + digital EIS will get the job done for static handheld. All the rest of the features are great to see. I wonder if the DR comparison with R5 is exactly the same. 

3 hours ago, UncleBobsPhotography said:

For the second point, the micro-HDMI is currently broken on my R5

This is why if something has a micro-hdmi port treat it like it doesn’t have hdmi out. That port is so flimsy and shitty and it is directly mounted to the main board on the R5.

3 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

I think is the timecode terminal

Looking at it more I think you are right. It's not on the front of the camera and the lettering looks like "Time" so I'm sure you are right.

19 hours ago, independent said:

Yeah, on the heels of a pretty good year, relatively speaking, I think Canon is frontrunning the supply shortages and the decline of the overall camera market

I agree. They probably don't need the capacity anymore because of pandemic and more importantly the chip shortage which, by guessing by their actions, they see continuing for awhile.

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

Mmmh 8k 60p apparently only with external power source whatever it means....

What in the actually fuck. That is the cripple hammer right here. Unless you can have a battery grip and then do it. More detailed pictures on Canon Rumors. What the hell is that port on the top right of the picture.? Could this be the external power plug for 8K60p?

1 hour ago, HurtinMinorKey said:

This might be my first Canon camera in years. It all depends on the video features, an in particular the VR suitable formats. To this point, one of the biggest weaknesses of the 5R (vanilla), is that there is no above 4K output at >=60fps. Simply put, 30fps for VR (even in in 8K) sucks ass, and 4K at 60 or 12fps doesn't really provide something that isn't already available in other solutions.  So I'm really hoping they can provide a 6K readout in the 5RC

R5C confirmed to have internal unlimited 8K/60P Recording

Also:

Full-featured 13 assignable buttons (hint at a more C70 style body)
Simultaneous audio record enabled with HFR

RAW LITE in several bitrate flavors

https://www.canonrumors.com/here-are-some-canon-eos-r5-c-specifications/

13 hours ago, tupp said:

Hopefully, they will put a lot more resources into development. manufacturing and support than they put into their marketing.

I hope so.

On 1/16/2022 at 1:18 AM, kye said:

Have there been many new MFT sensors developed?

None that I know of that are for ILC cameras. A few for high-end video surveillance/industrial uses.

Lets give them the benefit of the doubt and see what they do. I think it will be hard going since MFT sensor development has slowed compared to FF and MF sensors.

Having moved to FF, and looking at affordable S35 cinema cameras, I still would consider MFT if the entire package is there. A MFT cinema camera with internal ND and good dynamic range around 13 stops in a mirrorless style body smaller than C70...that is interesting. Olympus has great f/1.2 primes. They need to update their f/2 zooms and revamp them for video in useful focal ranges: 9-25, 12-40, 40-100 f/2.

A 9-25 f/2 + 40-100 f/2 would be a sweet small package if the body has cinema features.