newfoundmass

The AG-DVX200 retailed for close to $5,000 and within a few years was almost half that on the used market (it has since rebounded since it's now discontinued.) Obviously mirrorless cameras don't retain their value much better, BUT lenses do. Absolutely there are some camcorders that will retain their value, but a lot don't. If you buy one of the prosumer/lower end camcorders out there right now (and there aren't a ton) they'll lose their value pretty quickly; I found that out the hard way about 5 years ago when I purchased a bunch of them for multicamera live streaming for my old company. If I had to do it over I'd either go a cheaper route or go mirrorless. It was a real kick in the balls to see how cheap Sony PXW-X70's were on the second hand market a year after we bought them.

There's still a lot to be said for camcorders. I'd probably still use them if they retained their value. They are, without hesitation, my favorite form factor. 

Peter says it overheated after 2 3/4 hours. BUT that's without recording internally (he was recording via HDMI) and with a dummy battery. He says that the camera itself felt hotter than any other camera he has felt. He was able to immediately turn the camera back on and continue recording, though. I'd be real cautious about doing that though, because it can't be good for a camera's internals to push it that hard. He thinks perhaps the overheating shut off is something programmed into the camera, but isn't sure. This was all indoors with AC. He gives the specific situation and modes he used in the video. 

I do wish he'd tested while recording internally and with a battery to see if that made a difference. 

2 3/4 hours is probably more than enough for most folks, but that the camera body itself gets so warm is a bit concerning. 

On 7/17/2022 at 9:32 AM, kye said:

Use however much you need, but be aware that how much you need can vary radically depending on what you're filming.

50Mbps is tonnes if you're filming a talking-head with a blurry background, but point you camera at a tree while there's lots of wind, or during rain or snow, or at the ocean, or from a moving vehicle, and the 50Mbps you were loving before might make you cry.

Also, if you're filming in higher frame rates and then conforming to normal speed to make things appear in slow motion then your bitrate will get stretched accordingly.  50Mbps is 25Mbps when viewed at 50% speed on a timeline, etc.

You can't add bitrate in post!

A lot of that depends on resolution and camera though too. Like the C100 always impressed me with its imagine given it was only what, 24mbps? On the GH5 I could probably find a scenario where I could break it, but I've never had any problems when filming 100mbps in 4K, which would be about 50mbps in h.265 like the OP is using. The only time these days that I really notice mushy or blocky video is when given footage from action cameras and some phones to edit. 

Like with everything, there's diminishing returns. If you're not doing a ton of tweaking in post, you really don't need huge files, especially if it's only going on YouTube. For a lot of my work 50mbps (or 100mbps in h.264) is more than enough, given the final edit will end up on a streaming service that will stream it at maybe 1/4 of that. 

That's not an argument against higher bit rate options, as there absolutely are plenty of good reasons to have that as an option, but not everything needs to have 400mbps just as not everything needs to be filmed in RAW.

Will this be edited in post or will it be connected to a switcher? 

If it's being done in post then you've got a lot of options. Pretty much any camcorder that allows you to custom white balance will work. I filmed lots of multicam shoots with the Sony hdr-cx580. It's an older camera, but it was decent in low light and worked really well. 

If they're doing it live then two GH5 cameras with primes would work. Even if they do the editing in post the GH5 is a great option, but I specifically say this because it has the full size HDMI out. If they prefer camcorders then the Panasonic HC-MDH3 is the cheapest camcorder you'll find that has a full size HDMI, at least that I know of. 

I'm going to be able to play around with one in a few weeks but overall I'm pretty underwhelmed from what I've seen and heard. I know people who absolutely love it, but when really looking at it a lot of the things that I'd want are actually in the GH5II. 4K 120p would be nice, but I don't need it, especially since I've gotten really good results from using Topaz Video Enhance AI to upscale 1080p 120fps. ProRes is nice, but it'd be nice to have ProRes LT because 95% of the time I don't need HQ or even standard ProRes. The better stabilization, low light, audio controls, etc. are all very welcome but again they're not something I NEED.

There's really just not a ton of reasons why I'd need to upgrade from the GH5 short of my GH5 dying, but even then I think I'd probably just buy a used GH5 or another used S5 before considering a GH6. That I'd have to rig a GH6 up with an external battery solution doesn't help its case. Maybe the battery life of the GH3, GH4, and GH5 spoiled me, but as an event shooter that likes to work as light as possible, it's a real bummer that the battery life is so poor. 

11 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

no overheating

I really wish we'd get consistent information on this. Some insist there's no overheating, while others say it overheats after 45 or so minutes even in air conditioning. 

11 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Heck, great image, this guy got out of his GX85! Great montage and camerawork as well. He shot with the native 25mm 1.7 and the pancake zoom 12-32. I heard good things about both lenses.

 

 

The 25mm doesn't get nearly the love that it deserves. It's affordable, lightweight, and think is very good optically for a lens you can find for $100-120 used. 

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

That's impressive results with the M1, I can't believe that NVIDIA's top GPU still cannot accelerate H.265 10bit 4:2:2 footage. I will not buy another GPU until one is released that can do this. 

My M1 Pro 14inch MacBook Pro runs through everything, no problem at all. They're incredibly powerful machines. Editing 4 camera multicams with all angles color corrected and tweaked is a breeze. I've never been able to do that without proxies before, at least not 4K. I went with a modest build, too. 

19 hours ago, 92F said:

Yes ...but it's an all in one, reliable, nothing to add

Fashion is FF and there is the DVX 200 in M4/3 at the same price, only it won't have the look of a Hybrid M4/3...

It is a choice according to his real needs ... that of the customer

I'm not knocking him for using a camcorder. I genuinely miss using them. But it's hard for me to justify investing that kind of money when their value on the used market is so low. With my mirrorless set up I have my lenses retain value and can be used when upgrading. 

Tony Northrup said that he got 47 minutes before overheating indoors with air conditioning on fine mode. We'll see what others get. That's probably enough for a lot of folks, but not for me.

I miss camcorders so much, it's just hard not having a bigger sensor. It's also hard to justify dropping $4k or more to get one of the better ones given how much they decrease in value. At least with mirror less cameras your lenses retain the bulk of their value even though the bodies don't. 

My guess is it's a little bit of both. The digital workflow makes it easier to match shots and create the stylized look that they want no matter the lens. I mean, I can set up two cameras in my living room, put two different lenses on them, and as long as I white balance them correctly I can get them pretty close in camera. Often times I don't even need to tweak them in post.

Films these days also often have a bunch of different "looks", where back to back scenes could have completely different visuals and colors, so using a lens that gives a warmer look in a scene where you use warm colors probably isn't that big of a deal. 

Thank you for sharing. What camera and lenses did you use? Just the Pocket 6K?

21 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Trouble is with Fuji glass it only works on a Fuji. It is a tempting system but an expensive experiment no doubt.

A lot of the older Fuji lenses aren't great for video. That's always been a negative when considering them. As they update their line up and make their lenses more video friendly that will definitely change. But it's really distracting when you see the stepping when switching apertures and even focusing. 

Assuming there's not too much of a difference between adapted EF and native RF lenses, I'd probably end up using adapted lenses anyway on the R7, so I don't think it's a huge deal that the lens selection is limited right now. I'd maybe even get full frame lenses anyway, mostly primes, in the event I upgraded to a full frame camera in the future. 

I imagine the Sigma 18-35mm will be a popular lens on the R7, for example. 

4 hours ago, kye said:

Nah, just as you get close you'll arbitrarily move the goal posts again to 6K or 8K or some other thing that makes very little difference except making you re-buy all your equipment again and be forced to choose between cameras that are severely stretched and limited in many ways.

.......just like everyone did when they went from 1080p to 4K, mostly for very little reason except to sell more TVs.

I get your frustration, and understand your bigger point, but @MrSMWcomes on these forums and is one of its best posters because he shares his actual experiences in depth. I don't think he's ever been mean or condescending to anyone. Maybe try being a little more polite to people like him that come on here and share their experiences? 

Impressive stuff. Even more impressive that they enabled this for all their second generation Pocket cameras. The P4K is what, 3 years old now? Adding that huge of a feature on that old of a camera is pretty awesome. 

12 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh come on, they have the worse AF of Any camera manufacturer out here. That is not something you want on your tombstone. I got rid of my GH5 because I do birding and you can sure as hell forget that with that F ing camera. And I thought the color science was not so hot either.

I will Never buy another newer Panasonic camera until they come up with phase detect AF. And I sure as heck am not alone. They risk going belly up, I think the L alliance was a dumb ass move also. Leica played them like a fiddle. Leica took but didn't give.

They need to switch AF if only for the PR/marketing. 

The issue I have is that a lot of people spew the "Panasonic auto focus is useless" stuff without having used it. They're basing it off of YouTubers that only had the camera for a brief period and who did unrealistic tests. It's different when it's @herein2020, @MurtlandPhoto, or you saying it because you guys have used the cameras, learned how to work around the limitations, but ultimately decided that AF was necessary for your needs.

My work would greatly benefit from Sony or Canon AF. But Panasonic ticks every other box, giving me things that I value more. All cameras have limitations, unfortunately, it's just a matter of finding a camera that matches most of your needs. 

To bring this back to the R7, that's part of the reason I am complimentary about this camera even though it isn't perfect. Assuming the overheating isn't an issue, the R7 is a really good option for a lot of people like me that shoot events. And it's competitively priced. An event shooter could buy 3 of these and have a really strong multicam set up for under $4,000. That could be a huge deal.

I was leaning towards leaving Panasonic because I have concerns about its long term viability if it doesn't improve the AF and eliminate that stigma. To me, the long term viability of a company matters when investing in equipment. I don't want to sink money into a camera system that could be gone in 5 years, leaving me SOL if I need customer support, etc. Getting such a good deal on the Lumix S5 though got me to stay, at least for now. Things could change in a few years, but until then I'll keep getting the most that I can put of these cameras. 

6 hours ago, Emanuel said:

They are incredible camera series... Here's one produced by me shot on P6K G1:

 

Thank you for sharing. Was that Korean or Japanese? Is that where you work? That's cool if so! 

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

They have a battery grip for it.

While appreciated, you shouldn't have to spend an extra $150 or whatever to get respectable battery times because BMD decided to again use a small battery. 

3 minutes ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

Why not just get the Pro then? All the Pockets have the gyro already.

I'n guessing the battery life is an issue.

 I don't have the time to watch this morning, but the title mentions something about gyro data? I'm guessing to help with stabilization in post? That'd be pretty cool. 

I go back and forth on picking one of these cameras up, but ultimately the cheap feel of the body and ergonomics just don't do it for me. I don't understand how a company that has such an elegant UI can also have such poorly designed camera bodies. 

To the OP:

Have you considered maybe the EOS R? It has a 1.7 crop in 4K but the 1080p is really good and is Full Frame. Has good AF and Canon's digital stabilization is better than the IBIS in the Sony and Fuji. Plus you can adapt EF lenses and get near native results.