5D IV vs A7S II

[mtheory]

It seems likely that the next big DSLR battle will be between these two cameras, both top-sellers and low-light monsters for their respective companies, and that they will be released in a similar timeframe, competing for a similar market. What is your current expectation from the next-gen of these cameras? No need for analysis or justification, just your gut feeling.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Well lets see disadvantages both ways:                     

Canon 5D mark IV                                Sony A7s                               

-Doesn't have peaking                         -Doesn't have good colours             

-Doesn't exist                                 -Doesn't exist                             

[mtheory]

Ebrahim, this a poll to assess expectations and preferences of this forum, not a review / analysis / debate. Please vote, buddy.

[Chrad]

I don't see the point of the poll here. Better low light vs internal 4K is the big call for GH4/A7s consumers, but it's a no brainer that the two cameras the poll is about can have both. The predecessors already have a megapixel count above 4K, and it won't be necessary to sacrifice that in improving the low light performance. 

[IronFilm]

Do we even need to speculate about the Canon 5Dmk4?

As it is sooo easy to predict:
1) they'll sell bucket loads of it. (thanks to their marketing machine, their size, and retail presence, and idiot friends giving recommendations to their mates while not having a clue....)
2) but tech spec gear heads like ourselves who actually know their sh*t will be very very disappointed in what a flop it is. 

[Jimmy]

Do we even need to speculate about the Canon 5Dmk4?

As it is sooo easy to predict:
1) they'll sell bucket loads of it. (thanks to their marketing machine, their size, and retail presence, and idiot friends giving recommendations to their mates while not having a clue....)
2) but tech spec gear heads like ourselves who actually know their sh*t will be very very disappointed in what a flop it is. 

​and if it is basically a cheap 1DC (which would be my guess)?

For every "idiot friend" there is also someone who is anti "insert brand" and spreads FUD.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I was kidding. Lets talk real. It's always fun to speculate and see who got it right. 

Should we talk about what we want? or what we realisticly expect? 

I guess what we expect is what you're asking for here.

The Canon 5D mk IV, I expect it will have 4K video. Canon will have to do it as the market simply demands it, especially the photography market! The demand on it is much higher on the 5D upgrade than it was on the C100 mk I even. 

Demand is the first reason I speculate it but the second is that the 5D upgradr cycle is very long, and they cannot wait until 2020 to make a 4K 5D mk V. 

The other potential is that they will make a video specific DSLR, like the rumored 5Dc, which would be much better for us. 

if they go with the all in one 5D mk IV. 

-Higher resolution but still under 28ish mp sensor 

-Improved lowlight performance, a7s-ish 

-8 frames per second, between 7D and 6D 

-Top end Canon AF system for stills 

-Dual pixel AF, no touch screen, 7D mk II like 

-4K video at lower bit rate and than the 1DC amd 4:2:0 instead of 4:2:2 to compact flash cards. 

-Improved 1080p and 60p and 720p 120p

-Clean 1080p 8bit 422 HDMI out with sound and timecode

-All the other 7D mk II advancements like timelapse, anti flicker technology, distortion correction for video, improved picture style menu with ''fine detail'' option, 

-No peaking, no zebras, no 4K 60p, no 10bit, no 4:2:2, no articulating screen, no EVF, no mind blowing surprises. 

In case they go with a 5Dc 

-Lower pixel count, perhaps the same as 1DC, 18mp

-Dual pixel AF 

-A7s like lowlight performance 

-4K at XC10 4:2:2 high bitrate XF-AVC codec 

-Cfast media as XC10.

-Canon Log and WDR 

-peaking and zebras and so on. 

I am pretty sure they'll go one of these ways. I know Canon. 

The A7s mk II specs are already quite predictable 

-The same ergonomic jump as the A7 II 

-5 axis image stabilization 

-4K internal recording at a compressed rate SD card 

 

Both of these cameras I don't expect very soon, I'd say the end of 2015. 

Which one I'd be more interested in? A 5D with 4K resolution, whichever way they go. So to answer the question I am more interested in a 5D successor than an a7s II, because I can get IS with my Canon lenses and if Canon does the same 5D image but at a high resolution the image quality will be far ahead of any Sony, just a personal preference. A sharp 5D would blow away viewers image wise. 

 

[Wulf]

A sharp 5D would blow away viewers image wise. 

 

​Call her D810.

:-)

[eleison]

Do we even need to speculate about the Canon 5Dmk4?

As it is sooo easy to predict:
1) they'll sell bucket loads of it. (thanks to their marketing machine, their size, and retail presence, and idiot friends giving recommendations to their mates while not having a clue....)
2) but tech spec gear heads like ourselves who actually know their sh*t will be very very disappointed in what a flop it is. 

​

1) Canon will sell buckets loads -- I disagree; the field is so fragmented now.  We have Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, blackmagic, Nikon, etc., etc., etc.  So many choices.  It use to be basically two choices especially for imaging - canon or nikon.  Also, there isn't a lot of photographers willing to upgrade from their 5d3's, a7r, d810, etc... etc..  Dslr sales are slowing down or decreasing..5d4 will be a tradition dslr designed towards photographers.  A lot of traditional photographers are already happy with what they own.

The Marketing Machine wouldn't work.  The 5d4 is too expensive for the common consumer who buys based on marketing alone.  These consumers buy rebels - the sub $1,000 market. 

 

2) we "will be very very disappointed in what a flop it is" -- agreed.  For the photo enthusiast, there are just way too many choices... For the video enthusiast, canon isn't really in their mind share anymore.

[tugela]

Anything that uses a mirror in its light path is probably going to be less than ideal for video, so I don't see the 5D4 can possibly win this contest as a video camera. An A7s mark II will kick the stuffing out of it.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Anything that uses a mirror in its light path is probably going to be less than ideal for video, so I don't see the 5D4 can possibly win this contest as a video camera. An A7s mark II will kick the stuffing out of it.

​I don't agree. I'd take a 1DC for video over a GH4 or an A7s. The only technical limitations a mirrored SLR imposes for video is

1 -Lack of viewfinder (which can be solved easily with an optical loup like Zacuto's on the LCD monitor),

2- Inability to adapt lenses designed for shorter flange distance cameras like E mount, m43s, c mount, and can only adapt to Nikon F, m42, and Leica R lenses.

Both are not dealbreakers for most users, but if you need to use such lenses, it is of course a deal breaker, a DSLR is not for you. 

point is if they WANT to make it work (a great DSLR for video), they can. Magic lantern and the 1Dc are a living proof, combine them and you get what we dream of, especially in a 5D size and with Dual pixel AF. 

They can make a smashing video SLR. Question is, will they do it or lie in fear protecting the 1Dc, C100 and C300?

Afraid it might be the later, or something in-between (smashing with a few crippling limitations)

[Somnang]

Wow for  #3..... I'd give up the option to shoot internal 4k with the quickness if the camera can output 4:4:4 raw internally. No Dynamic Range as one of the options? That should be very important. I'd pick that over any of the options. 

[Cinegain]

I don't think a camera out of the mirrorless system works for video anymore. That's obviously though, my own philosophy. I just don't know what to do without an EVF anymore. An OVF feels like a step back. Especially if you don't want to use a loupe and being a hybrid shooter that relies heavily on a good liveview experience as well.

Then I also don't think Canon is very forward thinking. They will have to rely on their brand awareness and people wanting to stick to their native selection of L-glass and willing to take hits in the form of compromises without questioning it. They might have the some of the latest Canon implementations donated by previous models, such as the 5DmkIII, 1DC, 7DmkII and XC10 like Ebrahim speculates, which would be nice. However, it's still Canon. I think you can forget that A7S lowlight performance. You won't get any high speed shooting done with this either. In fact, you won't have a lot of bells & whistles which is standard for most mirrorless cameras. Then they want to keep people from buying something like that rather than a Cxx-something camera, so they'll find a way to really cripple it, I'm sure of it. Yet it has 4K, so it has to come in at atleast 4K USD as well. Makes sense, right?

People can hate on the GH4 and new G7 all they want. But it does do an incredible job for the price. EVF, Vari-angle touch display, internal 4K, flexible mount system with focus peaking and everything. Those are really key selling points to me. Yeah, sure, I would've liked better lowlight performance, but I'd be happy enough if in the near future they would work towards a fairly clean ISO6400 and amazing ISO3200, as I don't really finding myself having the need for ISO400000 or the likes. It's harder to get a really shallow depth of field. Well, a lens turbo and a fast lens at a carefully picked focal length helps already. Wouldn't it be great if the next GH was the next BMPCC doing RAW? Well, yeah, but a good codec, bitrate and LOG profile would come a long way already. Personally am hoping for great things from the GX8... I would have something that size and those features, most notably so, sensor stabilization during video recording would be amazing! Perhaps not even at 4K. I was really excited when the press release of the E-M5II came about, had already put up an pre-order, just to regret that after noticing the shortcomings. The concept was nice, I feel like now it's up to Panasonic to do it right. I would love something that I can put to good use for both photography and videography and that can be used either in an elaborate set-up, or very compact and minimalistic with nothing more than a tinie tiny lens.

You might not like the color coming out of the Panasonics, but you must've seen some footage you later found out came out of an GH4 that you quite liked that proves that in some skilled hands it is capable of great things. Which actually goes for any camera. If you're only getting junk, you might just got your process all wrong. And if you never even gave it a go, just judging on bias... well, give it a try. You might spend a little longer on color, but then perhaps you find yourself suddenly noticing the 5DmkIII footage looking out of focus the whole time. But it's also a question of: do you have that kind of time and patience/skill to do so? Do you, in the end, still prefer the look of one camera over the other either it being color science, softness or 'motion cadence'? What are you willing to spend? And so on. Different preferences, tastes, uses and budgets lead to different answers. In the end you just gotta do what feels right by you.

Personally. An A7SII with built-in stabilization, internal 4K and articulated screen would be damn tempting. The fullframe magic, shallow depth of field, just bokehlicious, the lowlight performance!! But you know, I'm kinda married to the M43 system... and fullframe glass, especially if you want some native mount electronic lenses for hybrid shooting, would be quite the investment and added bulk. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't go 5DIV in the end either. I have no Canon glass whatsoever and not looking into buying some either. And as said before, not the biggest fan of OVFs. I do like the image out of the D5300, but for hybrid shooting the OVF/Liveview kinda ruins it for me. For me the future is in the feature packed mirrorless cameras like the GH4, NX1 and the A6000. With sensor stabilization needing to be the next big thing to win me over. So many primes and third party lenses, with third party adapters that would instantly become crazy useful handheld. It's a matter of time... until then, there's lots of gear to enjoy shooting with already!

[Geoff CB]

I'm with Cinegain. An EVF is a personal requirement for video work. I'll never have my primary camera be a DSLR again.

 

[IronFilm]

​

1) Canon will sell buckets loads -- I disagree; the field is so fragmented now.  We have Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, blackmagic, Nikon, etc., etc., etc.  So many choices. 

While I agree with your general comments about DSLR sales trending down and the market fragmenting, Canon is still so big that even if the 5Dmk4 is a sales "flop" for Canon, that still means it sells many many more than most of its competitors would. 

[Jimmy]

There have been rumours around that the next set of Canon cameras will use dual gain to hit similar DR as the C300 mkII. If that happens, they will have to work hard to cripple the video image down to expected levels!

[hmcindie]

If that happens, they will have to work hard to cripple the video image down to expected levels!

​Still better than a GH4  ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

[Cinegain]

Nope, but perhaps still better than yo mama.

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[Christina Ava]

if only the A7s2 had an EF mount, and a bigger body.i cant hold it straight!

still CANON has me worked up in anticipation more that the sony A7S series.

im going to shoot with both a mark3 and a a7s in a wedding soon. and test how they work on my field.

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new canon mark4 what i expect

1. better low light, this is certainty as Canon historically improves it from model to model

2. 4k external, probably with a specialty gadget/recorder to milk more money and not sabotage the 1DC

3.the beautiful ergonomics and usability of the 5d series

4. same pixel count 

5. cleaner sony sensor ?improving on the softness..

 

 

[AaronChicago]

if only the A7s2 had an EF mount, and a bigger body.i cant hold it straight!

 

 

 

​I'm totally in agreement here. Seems like few people are actually wanting bigger bodies.