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Samsung NX1 vs Canon C300


Andrew Reid

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That video is brilliant!  

​I think maybe you need a more active imagination.  This capability has existed for years now.

​Coming soon. New firmware is great! But wait till you see what is in store for the GH4 ;)

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Guys, you just haven't pushed it enough, I can assure you, the NX1 has moire under the right stressor. It's not excessive, but it's there. I've produced it at 4k and UHD in various sharpness settings. I got it filming in a gym -- there were filters over some air vents, the moire was clearly there. 

​Were the vents a part of the theme of the film?  Or could you simply defocus them or better still, leave them out of frame?

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Brian, given your own eyes have moire, it's going to be there on the camera in some situations. Laws of physics, and all that.

When you look at the file to check for moire, make sure you look at it 1:1 because 4K material scaled to fit a 1080p is going to moire worse, it is completely at the mercy of the video player or NLE scaling method.

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I really don't see anything good in the Samsung image other than the resolution.

The DR is not even close. Half a stop? You have to be kidding. You are, perhaps subconsciously, trying to make the C300 footage look like the NX1, not the other way around.

Post both native files and we can grade it. I doubt the NX1 even has 10 stops.

​I agree with you man.... I dont see 9 stops in nx1... I own a sony a6000 and I bet the DR in my camera ist better than NX1. 

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The Canon C300 (currently reduced to $11,500) was the $15,000 stalwart of the professional videographer, only recently did it have a compelling rival – the Sony FS7.

It's perhaps more fair to say the FS700 at $8600 (with lens) was a compelling rival to the C300 ($15k no lens). The C300 wins in absolute detail (slightly), better skin tones out of camera, better usability, and a smaller package. The FS700 wins in slomo (up to 240fps 1080p-ish (up to 480 and 960fps at lower resolutions/cropping)), full frame support and superb low light with a Speedbooster. For fast turn-around, the C300's colors were (and still are) a major selling point. The FS700 can look great, but takes more work in post.

 If we add an Odyssey 7Q to the FS700 (bringing the price up to around $11K), this combo provides superior 10-bit ProRes, continuous 2K 240fps 12-bit raw, 120fps 4K (including raw bursts), 4K ProRes, and along with Slog2 puts it well past the C300 in terms of final image quality possible (including skin tones with post work).

The new FS7 brings 4K 10-bit 422, up to 180fps 1080p  internally, and along with improved color science, isn't just a rival for the C300, it far surpasses it. The FS7 is even doing well matched up with the ARRI Alexa/Amira! I'd hold off on the FS7 until Sony does at least one firmware update, however Sony is on the right track- giving us what we're asking for (as they have with the A7S). Samsung (NX1), Panasonic (GH4), and Sony are eager for our business- let's keep giving it to them.

The most challenging aspect of a modern digital camera is skin tones: we notice right away when they aren't good. Resolution, moire, dynamic range, highlights/shadows- most people don't notice so much. When skin tones are off, everyone notices. When skin tones look great- everyone loves the image. That's why the 5D3, even with H.264 is still popular with a relatively soft image.

I can understand there's a lot more work for camera tests shooting models/actors, however a camera test without skin tones, the most important test for the viewing public, doesn't really show how most people, both pros and consumers, will use the cameras (cats & dogs not included). To minimize the workload, setting the cameras to the best in-camera settings possible (or even selecting the best stock options- no tweaks), setting correct WB and exposure, and shooting in the same conditions makes a great camera test when comparing two or more cameras (no color work in post other than matching levels on the scopes, and converting all cameras to Rec709).

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Good setup! The bulb really tests the dynamic range!

I have to ask though, did you shoot with levels at 16-235 or 0-255?

Because from these tests http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?332463-Samsung-NX1-getting-log-like-setting/page11   comment 108.   It looks as if iffmpeg and presumably other converters are set up to receive legal levels so are destroying the information bellow 16 and above 235 in the transcoding process.

This means that if you shot 0-255 levels that there may be more dynamic range you can get out of this bad boy.    Hopefully as transcoders and programs advance they will be able to accept 0-255, but for the time being it looks like it makes sense to shoot only 16-235.

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MattH- iffmpeg is a GUI for ffmpeg. ffmpeg has full source code available and is relatively easy to compile on Linux/OSX (it's better to cross-compile for Windows from Linux or OSX!). I'm currently wrapping up a fast batch converter for Windows (uses ffmpeg). If there's interest I can look into adding H.265 to H.264/ProRes conversion with full-range ffmpeg support. Also thinking about providing an add-on for mlrawviewer to improve 5D3 RAW workflow performance.

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MattH- iffmpeg is a GUI for ffmpeg. ffmpeg has full source code available and is relatively easy to compile on Linux/OSX (it's better to cross-compile for Windows from Linux or OSX!). I'm currently wrapping up a fast batch converter for Windows (uses ffmpeg). If there's interest I can look into adding H.265 to H.264/ProRes conversion with full-range ffmpeg support. Also thinking about providing an add-on for mlrawviewer to improve 5D3 RAW workflow performance.

That sounds awesome!  Way beyond my expertise.  Please share your progress on this forum.

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​I agree with you man.... I dont see 9 stops in nx1... I own a sony a6000 and I bet the DR in my camera ist better than NX1. 

​You guys can look at some random footage and say it has 9 stops or whatever? I cannot. I see engineers set up charts and crap and they still can't get a solid assessment of DR. 

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Brian, given your own eyes have moire, it's going to be there on the camera in some situations. Laws of physics, and all that.

When you look at the file to check for moire, make sure you look at it 1:1 because 4K material scaled to fit a 1080p is going to moire worse, it is completely at the mercy of the video player or NLE scaling method.

​This true, and it's something people should consider when they see moire in the image. Nonetheless, we all want that soft film, or even CCDish image that CMOS never quite seems to produce. 

 

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I tried to load it to youtube but wouldn't work. The FB quality is terrible. But look at the airvents, you can see some aliasing/moire, but the poor encoding masks it. It's the baskbetball vid. Tried in different settings. GH2 didn't alias in comparable settings.

No one here needs to explain the hows and why of this informal test for my sake. I'm not interested in DPreview nerdsnark.  I'm just putting it out here to show that aliasing and moire are things to contend with on most cmos cams and the NX1 isn't an exception from my experience to this point. However it's not a deal breaker IMO, it's just something to keep an eye out for if it bothers you. Lots of ways to cope with aliasing.

I do some music videos occasionally, and those can tax a cmos sensor -- the guitar string, the extreme contrast on piano keys, so far the NX1 hasn't created an issue in those types of shooting situations. YMMV. 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/NX1-Rumors-and-Tips/306653216190462?ref=hl

 

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

​You guys can look at some random footage and say it has 9 stops 

​Quite impressive really if someone can mesaure DR with normal footage. I do however judge DR based on how it compares to other scientifically tested cameras, and here the nx1 looks like 1 stop-ish less than the C300 which is at 12 stops. To be honest, all of these cameras have pretty much the same DR to normal audience. 10 vs 11 vs 12 isn't as huge as charts and us geeks make them look. 

 

What jumps out to me about the nx1 footage as a normal viewer is how the blacks look. It's a completely unique look, silky 100% smooth clean blacks. Looks really unique and interesting. Kind of a new ''samsung'' look that I love. 

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I tried to load it to youtube but wouldn't work. The FB quality is terrible. But look at the airvents, you can see some aliasing/moire, but the poor encoding masks it. It's the baskbetball vid. Tried in different settings. GH2 didn't alias in comparable settings.

No one here needs to explain the hows and why of this informal test for my sake. I'm not interested in DPreview nerdsnark.  I'm just putting it out here to show that aliasing and moire are things to contend with on most cmos cams and the NX1 isn't an exception from my experience to this point. However it's not a deal breaker IMO, it's just something to keep an eye out for if it bothers you. Lots of ways to cope with aliasing.

I do some music videos occasionally, and those can tax a cmos sensor -- the guitar string, the extreme contrast on piano keys, so far the NX1 hasn't created an issue in those types of shooting situations. YMMV. 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/NX1-Rumors-and-Tips/306653216190462?ref=hl

 

​We can't judge on that. Post the native h.265 file (even one second) so we can see if you had an error. Not fighting just trying to get information on this, it's a good thing you came here and shared something you found but I highly doubt it's an error in your workflow (hopefully for you, me and everyone)

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What jumps out to me about the nx1 footage as a normal viewer is how the blacks look. It's a completely unique look, silky 100% smooth clean blacks. Looks really unique and interesting. Kind of a new ''samsung'' look that I love. 

​That's what I noticed too actually. I never mentioned it though because I assumed it was something fakish or merely baked into the profile. Inky blacks though. I really like it. It show in digied's footy actually that he posted a while back. I just haven't had time to play with settings and see what is achievable and what isn't. 

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​We can't judge on that. Post the native h.265 file (even one second) so we can see if you had an error. Not fighting just trying to get information on this, it's a good thing you came here and shared something you found but I highly doubt it's an error in your workflow (hopefully for you, me and everyone)

​Man I just cannot get youtube to process it. Tried every which way. Maybe I'll try vimeo tomorrow. Trust me though guys, the aliasing is really there on a tough target like those hepa vents in the gym. In the meantime, here's hoping for better h265 support from adobe or vegas. 

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Jimmy, the C300 image came off the card in Rec.709 then I adjusted the NX1 in-camera to match. Neither had any grading. So no, I didn't cripple the C300 to look like a NX1 as you suggested! I really don't see how you can not say the NX1 is a match for dynamic range judging from those shots. Barely half a stop in the bulb it is giving away. Come on dude. Wake up.

​I thought you shot in C-Log?

Rec. 709 on the C300 has no where near 12 stops. 

I'd love nothing more than to be proved wrong and be able to get a 4K, 1080/120p camera with 11.5 stops, but the footage just doesn't show it (yet).

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