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APS-C vs FF: a hybrid camera for 1000-1250 EUR (used)


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45 minutes ago, mercer said:

I suppose, but filmmakers shot feature films for years on film without any playback. It's a modern comfort. Now I'm using an old build from 2017, so it's possible they've figured that out since then. For me, the 5D3 was so very liberating because once I used the camera, I didn't look back... or forward. The image was MORE than good enough for my humble hobby. I wish I could have that epiphany with some lenses.

Neat trick for the F5... let me guess... 9 out of 10 times you got the shot?

I'd imagine it would make you slow down and be more deliberate?

I remember when I was shooting stills there was a heavy "anti-chimping" sentiment, which mostly overlaps in rationale.

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

Neat trick for the F5... let me guess... 9 out of 10 times you got the shot?

I don't recall ever having any other camera issues on that shoot. 

But of course there are tonnes of other reasons why the Director/1stAD will want to go again for a second (or 7th....) take. 

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4 hours ago, mercer said:

I suppose, but filmmakers shot feature films for years on film without any playback. It's a modern comfort. Now I'm using an old build from 2017, so it's possible they've figured that out since then. For me, the 5D3 was so very liberating because once I used the camera, I didn't look back... or forward. The image was MORE than good enough for my humble hobby. I wish I could have that epiphany with some lenses.

 

I can deal with no playback, but no Live View + No playback? Is that how it really was (I forget its been so long)?

So what you're basically shooting from the optical viewfinder or guesstimating focus? metering exposure etc?

If so that's actually good for skills (its why I still love shooting film for stills) but damn thank goodness for "modern comfort" as well!

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20 minutes ago, Django said:

I can deal with no playback, but no Live View + No playback? Is that how it really was (I forget its been so long)?

So what you're basically shooting from the optical viewfinder or guesstimating focus? metering exposure etc?

If so that's actually good for skills (its why I still love shooting film for stills) but damn thank goodness for "modern comfort" as well!

Nah, the stable Nightly Build is 1080p Full Frame 14bit 16:9 Raw. It shoots continuous with proper live view. Playback was wonky when I tried it back in '17 so I never tried it again. It has exposure meters including a Raw Histogram with an Over Exposure Warning including which channels are clipping. It has peaking and "Magic Zoom" ... punch in while recording. Everything is stable and I've never had any hiccups.

Only the Experimental Builds have a crop and a wonky Live View.

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21 minutes ago, mercer said:

Nah, the stable Nightly Build is 1080p Full Frame 14bit 16:9 Raw. It shoots continuous with proper live view. Playback was wonky when I tried it back in '17 so I never tried it again. It has exposure meters including a Raw Histogram with an Over Exposure Warning including which channels are clipping. It has peaking and "Magic Zoom" ... punch in while recording. Everything is stable and I've never had any hiccups.

Only the Experimental Builds have a crop and a wonky Live View.

Right, now I remember! That was the build and settings that worked best. I just might pickup a 5D3 again at some point for nostalgic reasons and to experiment with ML RAW again. Good to know the workflow in post is simplified a bit too..

17 minutes ago, mercer said:

I agree about film for stills, though. It really makes you slow down and find your shot. 

Absolutely. I actually also simulate the film workflow with my Leica M9 as the playback is totally useless on the super low res display, no live view and it only takes small size SD cards that I fill to the max with only 24/36 pics available. Changes everything. I did a pro portrait shoot recently with this M9 setup and the R6, end result was well 36 shots on the Leica vs +400 on the Canon. There were great shots on both cameras but the clients favourite was by far the Leica ones (and I did not tell them which came from which camera). There was just more work/effort put into the composition, direction etc.. was an interesting experiment!

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17 hours ago, Django said:

I can deal with no playback, but no Live View + No playback? Is that how it really was (I forget its been so long)?

So what you're basically shooting from the optical viewfinder or guesstimating focus? metering exposure etc?

If so that's actually good for skills (its why I still love shooting film for stills) but damn thank goodness for "modern comfort" as well!

I have vague memories of seeing people attach a separate video camera to the rig so that they'd have a recording of what was 'in the can'.  Later film cameras had analog video out feeds did't they?  I thought they split the light and had a separate video sensor in there for monitoring and recording.  Lots of benefits to having a recording (of whatever quality) for the delay (maybe several days/weeks) before getting your developed film back.

I know big budget features would be using the studios overnight lab to watch dailies the next morning, but if you didn't have that access sometimes it was a long wait.

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On 6/23/2022 at 5:34 AM, Django said:

So what you're basically shooting from the optical viewfinder or guesstimating focus? metering exposure etc?

I don't own a Canon DSLR anymore.... and may be someone can verify/confirm what I'm about to say...

I vaguely remember the optical viewfinder becomes disabled with live-view enabled??? I'm assuming that in video mode because it depends on live-view in a DSLR... optical viewfinder becomes disabled there too... so... they are really blind in video mode if the live-view goes black... can someone verify what I'm saying is true/false???

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3 hours ago, mkabi said:

I don't own a Canon DSLR anymore.... and may be someone can verify/confirm what I'm about to say...

I vaguely remember the optical viewfinder becomes disabled with live-view enabled??? I'm assuming that in video mode because it depends on live-view in a DSLR... optical viewfinder becomes disabled there too... so... they are really blind in video mode if the live-view goes black... can someone verify what I'm saying is true/false???

You are correct, the optical viewfinder does not work when in Live View on Canon DSLRs.

But I have never heard of any Canon DSLR's Live View going black

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On 6/23/2022 at 6:21 AM, Django said:

Right, now I remember! That was the build and settings that worked best. I just might pickup a 5D3 again at some point for nostalgic reasons and to experiment with ML RAW again. Good to know the workflow in post is simplified a bit too.

They're pretty cheap now. I still love the image and I know that any limitations there are is more based on my skill than the IQ of ML Raw.

 

On 6/23/2022 at 6:21 AM, Django said:

Absolutely. I actually also simulate the film workflow with my Leica M9 as the playback is totally useless on the super low res display, no live view and it only takes small size SD cards that I fill to the max with only 24/36 pics available. Changes everything. I did a pro portrait shoot recently with this M9 setup and the R6, end result was well 36 shots on the Leica vs +400 on the Canon. There were great shots on both cameras but the clients favourite was by far the Leica ones (and I did not tell them which came from which camera). There was just more work/effort put into the composition, direction etc.. was an interesting experiment!

That's pretty cool. Slowing down makes all the difference sometimes... artistically and practically. I'm sure I would love a Leica, but they're a bit out of my price range. I follow Mattias on IG and he's been shooting with a Pixii camera lately and it's some of his best stuff. Gotta love rangefinders. I just picked up an old Minolta 7s II rangefinder. The damn thing is TINY and the rangefinder patch is just dull enough that it slows me up a touch more. A lot of fun to shoot with. 

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

They're pretty cheap now. I still love the image and I know that any limitations there are is more based on my skill than the IQ of ML Raw.

In the best conditions I think the 5D with ML images are right up there with the Alexa.  No, it's not equal, but within the 5Ds DR limitations, it really is an excellent image.  Canon sensors and colour science are famous for good reason.

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43 minutes ago, kye said:

In the best conditions I think the 5D with ML images are right up there with the Alexa.  No, it's not equal, but within the 5Ds DR limitations, it really is an excellent image.  Canon sensors and colour science are famous for good reason.

How often do I mention that I'm interested in another camera? And then how often do I buy said cameras?

Even though I know the camera in and out, and could probably shoot with it now without any exposure aids, and even a blacked out LiveView, I still feel like I am scratching the surface with what the final output could look like.

Other than maybe the FP, I don't know if I could get a purer image without spending a lot more. At that point, I may as well just rent cameras.

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17 minutes ago, mercer said:

How often do I mention that I'm interested in another camera? And then how often do I buy said cameras?

Even though I know the camera in and out, and could probably shoot with it now without any exposure aids, and even a blacked out LiveView, I still feel like I am scratching the surface with what the final output could look like.

Other than maybe the FP, I don't know if I could get a purer image without spending a lot more. At that point, I may as well just rent cameras.

I'm reminded of Werner Herzog saying that his cinematographers need to know their equipment and their especially their camera/lens so that they could shoot without looking through the viewfinder but would still know the framing.  It was his minimum criteria for a cinematographer to be considered competent IIRC.

It is one of the things that they talk about with street photography and using only a single prime lens - you get to the point of not needing to look because you already know the lens and the compositions you'd get.

...and yes, the grass is always greener with other cameras, but apart from resolution and increased DR, the 5D ML combo is right at the top of what is available, basically regardless of price.

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Other than DR I can find no fault in the image. I don’t even think 5d II RAW aliasing is a big deal. I’d go with a 5d iii and just install a stable build, use plain old uncompressed full sensor 14 bit 1080, beautiful image and stable enough for pro work. 

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On 6/25/2022 at 1:59 PM, FHDcrew said:

Other than DR I can find no fault in the image. I don’t even think 5d II RAW aliasing is a big deal. I’d go with a 5d iii and just install a stable build, use plain old uncompressed full sensor 14 bit 1080, beautiful image and stable enough for pro work. 

I've made some more research and discovered that Fujifilm's video AF may not be as good (with regard to reliability) as I was thinking. It seems like it still needs some refinement or requires too much playing with the af settings (as shown on one of Philip Bloom's videos). Sony a7 III or Canon R would be a better choice but there aren't any good deals on them right now (to be within my constrained budget). There is a good offer for a Fuji X-T4 - 1000 EUR body only but I'm considering to back out a little and maybe start with some cheaper Canon DSLRs with which I'd have to rely on MF only with my Carl Zeiss 50mm f1.4 and not be disappointed by the faulty AF of Fujifilm. Which one would you choose - Canon 5d mark II or III ML Raw (MF with 50mm Carl Zeiss f1.4) or 5d mark IV (DPAF with Canon 50mm f1.8) in cropped 4k? Maybe give Fujifilm a chance but buy a cheaper X-T30, or wait for reviews of the new Canons i.e. r10 and r7?

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Buy one of these choices. They seem to make equally sense to your variantes of wants. Or, if money allows, all of them.😂 Sorry, usually i am not up to cute remarks, but your last post, in context to your og post, made me laugh. Still laughing. This thread will go on forever.😊

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Just weigh DPAF versus 14 bit RAW. If you go 5d mark iv make sure to get the c-log upgrade. 8 bit c-log grades nicely and you can’t deny the usefulness of good AF. But 5d mark iii RAW has that mojo, that I think a little bit of it got lost in the 5d iv. 5d ii I would only recommend if you have very little equipment; for example if you don’t have a lighting setup or want more lens options. Difference between that and 5d III is minor, and the extra money saved could go toward lenses, lighting, or both. Just weigh what is important to you. Any of the 5d routes is good. 

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