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Firmware update turns Panasonic S1 into an S1H (albeit with record-time limit in demanding modes like 6K)


Andrew Reid
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17 hours ago, omega1978 said:

Test the 6K mode internal, with ACES color workflow. Resolve let me only render 4K, Gpu has not enough RAM

My current issue...

My PC could not handle the 4K coming from the Fuji XT3 so had to convert to pro res first.

It handles the Pannyboy 4K better SOOC, but struggles. Anything more or layers on layers etc and it just bogs down.

I need a new system and currently debating Mac mini m1 or Mac Book M1.

Laptop I think because I have an increasing need to work on the go due to changing times within my own niche.

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16 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

Hi Lux Shots,

Staying in my lane as one of the "non-professional enthusiast users" in this thread...I agree with your first point that trying to glean any important technical nuggets out of, um, "corporate sales speech" is always a challenge.

However, as a "non-professional user with limited budget trying to and make the best purchasing decisions for my imaging, um, pastime", I need to rely on other sources for hand-on information to help me make a purchasing decision. Simply, I do not have the luxury of working in a production environment where I might earn some hands-on experience with RAW equipment and workflows (shooting-to-final edit), nor do I have the luxury of robust resources to layout ($$$) for rentals to try things out for myself. So, I do my best to work within "my means" to try and see if I can get/afford/or-otherwise-wrangle a way to get my Panasonic's "consumer camera" to provide me with the promises of its own advertisement!

To your second point regarding RED RAW...I've read lots of online words regarding this subject and, quite frankly, not having a legal/patent background, myself, I find I must apply the same "separating the wheat from the chaff" thinking to "online legal-opinion speech" as I do with "corporate sales speech". My question, "does anyone truly know how much of a, um, stranglehold the RED RAW patent actually has in constraining technological innovation for other manufacturers to come up with their own RAW or others to come up with an open-source RAW format?" Frankly, a lot of the discussion I've read on the matter smacks of "urban myth"...IMHO.

________________________

On to other S1 ProRes RAW matters...it's looking like consumer-grade 4K 120Hz HDR monitors are either non-existent and/or inadequate and/or way out of budget for the task (read: my needs) so I've been looking at LG OLED TV's to properly monitor (with some DCI-P3/REC.2020 color volume issues) any HDR grading. 🙂

-Jim

Full Disclosure: Besides being a camera enthusiast and working camera dude (I get paid weekly by my corporate clients in the photo and video realms), my day job is as a Sr. Software Engineer.

To put things simply, a patent usually has a particular claim that is novel. The spell out in excruciating detail exactly how their technology achieves that claim. They also try and make the claim as broad as possible, to try and cover any and all possible uses and implementations.  A quick look here will make you utterly sick with how broad and catch all many of the RED patents seem to be. But a quick look at this patent in particular, and you can see the claim, and how they accomplish what they do, and why it is novel, and that being visually lossless compression of a RAW motion video RAW of at least 23 frames per second.

Of course there may be some ways to get around this. Just know that if you do try, you will most definitely have REDs lawyers knocking at your door. If they shut down Apple, they probably can shut down any company.

As an aside, legal at my company really dissuades us from even looking at patents, as their is stiffer penalties if a company knowingly infringes on a patent, as opposed to creating a technology naturally that may violate a patent. 

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4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

My current issue...

My PC could not handle the 4K coming from the Fuji XT3 so had to convert to pro res first.

It handles the Pannyboy 4K better SOOC, but struggles. Anything more or layers on layers etc and it just bogs down.

I need a new system and currently debating Mac mini m1 or Mac Book M1.

Laptop I think because I have an increasing need to work on the go due to changing times within my own niche.

My buddy has a MB with M1 and cuts 4k h265 files from Canon C70 in 4.2.2 like butter.

You maybe wait a M1X or so, with better performance to stay up to date for a longer time..and higher resolution

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Prores Raw in Premiere give me very strange colors.

i have set under Master V-Gamut/V-log, then apply the VLog_RAWGamut_to_VLog_VGamut_forS1H_ver100 and the official VLog_to_V709_forV35_ver100

What can be the problem ?

 

Prores Raw.JPG

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6 hours ago, omega1978 said:

Prores Raw in Premiere give me very strange colors.

i have set under Master V-Gamut/V-log, then apply the VLog_RAWGamut_to_VLog_VGamut_forS1H_ver100 and the official VLog_to_V709_forV35_ver100

What can be the problem ?

 

Prores Raw.JPG

Without a color chart and a custom white balance, we have no idea what is wrong with the colors. I assume you feel they don't match the scene as you remember it, but you are also changing the temperature, so this can have an effect.

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8 minutes ago, Lux Shots said:

Without a color chart and a custom white balance, we have no idea what is wrong with the colors. I assume you feel they don't match the scene as you remember it, but you are also changing the temperature, so this can have an effect.

WB was set to 5600k, and i corrected a bit.

But the overall color for me is to much on the yellow site for standard color conversion..

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On 4/10/2021 at 4:56 AM, Lux Shots said:

Full Disclosure: Besides being a camera enthusiast and working camera dude (I get paid weekly by my corporate clients in the photo and video realms), my day job is as a Sr. Software Engineer.

To put things simply, a patent usually has a particular claim that is novel. The spell out in excruciating detail exactly how their technology achieves that claim. They also try and make the claim as broad as possible, to try and cover any and all possible uses and implementations.  A quick look here will make you utterly sick with how broad and catch all many of the RED patents seem to be. But a quick look at this patent in particular, and you can see the claim, and how they accomplish what they do, and why it is novel, and that being visually lossless compression of a RAW motion video RAW of at least 23 frames per second.

Of course there may be some ways to get around this. Just know that if you do try, you will most definitely have REDs lawyers knocking at your door. If they shut down Apple, they probably can shut down any company.

As an aside, legal at my company really dissuades us from even looking at patents, as their is stiffer penalties if a company knowingly infringes on a patent, as opposed to creating a technology naturally that may violate a patent. 

With apologies to all for being OT here...

I agree, reading patents is headache-inducing, ha!

To clarify my "urban myth" comment, my only (small) point on the matter was that the RED v Sony suit (that is often trotted out as "the" example) covered many issues regarding such topics as camera design, implementations, functionalities, etc., as your link shows ...the suit was not "just about" RAW. However, (from what I'm seeing) the internet being the internet, folks seem to have latched on to (and continue to extrapolate further) the idea that somehow RED's patented RAW compression methodologies are the only one's physically possible in the entire universe. "Hokum", is all I'm saying.

___________________________

On-topic matters...awaiting the release this week of the latest LG C1 OLED models (for review against last year's CX models) to decide which way to go for an HDR grading monitor. :/

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On 4/9/2021 at 2:47 PM, TomTheDP said:

Any company can make a 12 bit codec like Blackmagic or Apple. What they can’t do is feature a compressed RAW like DNG. This is why Blackmagic and kinefinity removed CDNG from their cameras. Zcam developed a debayered “RAW” 12 bit codec rather than using DNG. Sigma uses DNG without compression. Zraw , BRAW, and PRR aren’t actually RAW tho 

All of which brings up the question, "What exactly does RAW mean?". A pixel/sensel voltage correlated/assigned to a numerical value denoting luminosity x total array? Final array numerical output from each manufacturer's unique processing chain? Recordable data packet stream?

If the goal/desire here is to produce an accurate representation of the sensor's output values to max-bit abilities, then I applaud all of the efforts being made by all of the manufacturer's to come up with the "best" (read: cost-effective, customer-need fulfillment, etc.) solutions for their product lines. There is no one sensor or ADC or processor design, nor is there one codec, nor one demosaicing algorithm, nor one compression scheme, etc., the permutations and possibilities are myriad.

My interest as consumer/artist(ha!)/amateur-naturalist is to be able to work-in and output-to the 1024-nit values that current 10-bit(stops) monitors provide vs the 256-nit values that older 8-bit(stops) monitors provide...with an eye to the future that one day (hopefully in my lifetime) we can all be working with 4096-nit 12-bit(stops) monitors and beyond. Ergo my interest in shooting today with internal 12-bit compressed, um, "RAW" recording abilities. 🙂

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On 4/12/2021 at 9:36 AM, Vintage Jimothy said:

Just bought a used S1 with V-Log and Firmware 2.0 already installed. And I gotta say... I am really looking forward to trying this monster out when it arrives!

You won't be disappointed!

It sits nicely alongside my S1H in person and on the timeline.

But I gotta say, I had a friend send me some BRAW from the S1H, and I think I may start cheating on ProRes RAW! 😄

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1 hour ago, Lux Shots said:

You won't be disappointed!

It sits nicely alongside my S1H in person and on the timeline.

But I gotta say, I had a friend send me some BRAW from the S1H, and I think I may start cheating on ProRes RAW! 😄

Glad to hear that! I'm hoping Panasonic eventually bring BRAW to the S1 and S5 too, but in the meantime I'm sure I'll be satisfied with the internal codecs the S1 now has. It's a total quantum leap from my trusty G85 that I've been using for the last three years.

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On 4/14/2021 at 12:20 AM, Vintage Jimothy said:

It's a total quantum leap from my trusty G85 that I've been using for the last three years.

Not surprised - as an owner of a G85, I know it's a great camera for the money (and size/weight) but when I bought a G9 I realised what I'd been missing...

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The S1 firmware 2.0 is incredible!  Been using the S1 for a year now, and I feel it's a new camera with the 6k ability.

One thing I noticed that few people or none discussed is the fact that they removed the downscaler from the S1. The HDMI Rec output down convert setting is gone.

I do lots of medical shoot were I need to setup multiple monitors in a room for focus and exposure checkups on skin.  I firmware 1.7 there was a down convert 10bit to 8bit in HDMI output... they removed it.

Now if a monitor does not support 4k 10bit input, it wont work anymore.  Use to work in firmware 1.7 and now gone with firmware 2.0...

I hope Panasonic will address this in firmware 2.1 and put back the down convert 4k to 1080p on the HDMI output for monitoring purposes.

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Kind of a random question, but in terms of my S1 and this newest update- will I see any benefit to going out and buying a CFexpress card? I know they are faster than my UHS-II SD card, but the SD card is handling the new 6k mode just fine, so is there a benefit from a video standpoint? I know the downside is they are more expensive than my card.

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6 hours ago, Brian Williams said:

Kind of a random question, but in terms of my S1 and this newest update- will I see any benefit to going out and buying a CFexpress card? I know they are faster than my UHS-II SD card, but the SD card is handling the new 6k mode just fine, so is there a benefit from a video standpoint? I know the downside is they are more expensive than my card.

Apparently a cf card is reccomend for 6k. I have yet to experience the dreaded corrupt file problem that lots of people with slower cards run into when using the 6k mode. But it is something to consider. 

I'm actually looking at Cf cards now because I cant afford to have corrupt files. 

But then again, for the price of Cf cards it's making just getting an ssd and shooting raw into the ninja look more reasonable. 

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1 hour ago, MicahMahaffey said:

But then again, for the price of Cf cards it's making just getting an ssd and shooting raw into the ninja look more reasonable. 

I actually just returned a Ninja V back to Amazon today after playing around with it and Prores raw the past few days. I didn’t think the extra weight and size was worth it relative to the IQ bump I was seeing in raw, I just wasn’t blown away. Plus as a longtime Davinci Resolve user who had to jump back to FCP after many years away from it in order to work with Prores raw, I wasn’t happy, not thrilled with the raw control in FCP.

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8 hours ago, Brian Williams said:

I actually just returned a Ninja V back to Amazon today after playing around with it and Prores raw the past few days. I didn’t think the extra weight and size was worth it relative to the IQ bump I was seeing in raw, I just wasn’t blown away. Plus as a longtime Davinci Resolve user who had to jump back to FCP after many years away from it in order to work with Prores raw, I wasn’t happy, not thrilled with the raw control in FCP.

What raw controla did you feel like you were missing out on? I haven't used pro Res raw on an actual project yet, and have just shot a few random little test clips, but fcp has white balance, iso and exposure control, isn't that the trifecta? 

I guess some sort of highlight recovery mode like resolve has would be pretty cool. 

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9 hours ago, Brian Williams said:

I actually just returned a Ninja V back to Amazon today after playing around with it and Prores raw the past few days. I didn’t think the extra weight and size was worth it relative to the IQ bump I was seeing in raw, I just wasn’t blown away. Plus as a longtime Davinci Resolve user who had to jump back to FCP after many years away from it in order to work with Prores raw, I wasn’t happy, not thrilled with the raw control in FCP.

Do you have any comparisons between 6K HEVC and ProRes raw shot at the same time or side by side? Would be curious to see.

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